Our Rivals' squads next year - Manchester City (2016/2017)

VanGaalEra said:
More like 50% of the match and saying we only got back into the game because of a goalie mistake is like saying well City only scored the first goal because of a long ball and a mistake by our CB's.

The only thing that was robbed was a penalty and a red card, had it been Bayern in that situation your opinion would be different.
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Not even 50% really we started quite well, it probably wasn't up until around 10 minutes that City started to control the game and we decided we didn't want to pass or control the ball that well for the next 30 minutes, we finished the half strongly though. For all of the talk about how good City were in that first half we had 3 good chances to their 2.

It is funny to see people keep mentioning our goal coming from an error as if City's goals was some sort of unstoppable wonder goals.
 
They've been impressive in patches so far, but it'll be interesting to see what'll happen with Peps intense regime after a while. Hardly any decent times to rest too many players, as he was able to in Spain and Germany, without risking a loss. No winter break neither, so I wonder how they'll cope with the intensity of it all.

I'm not quite sure that the PL is much better than either La Liga or the Bundesliga in terms of quality, but in terms of competetiveness this might be a new test. We could see Klopp trying to rest multiple first team players last season, and they got shown up as they should've been.
 
VP89 said:
Its a subjective view, but Ancelotti, Lippi and Mourinho have proven more than Pep in my eyes.

Pep is a very good coach but needs to prove himself in a league that's harder to lift silverware (i.e. the Premiership) than it is in in Germany or Spain. I'd even go as far as to say Pep made Bayern weaker than the level Heyckness brought them to in Europe.

With all this said, I think he's turning City into a very good team - they will be favourites and rightly so. If he dominates here with City like he has done in Spain/Germany then he'll certainly be in the bracket of greatness.
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Pep is just a better coach than Lippi and Ancelotti hands down. Look at how his teams develop and evolve. A Pep team is a far more scarier prospect than an Ancelotti or Lippi team. Its not Peps fault that great teams want him. I know who I would want steering my ship
 
GhastlyHun said:
Which is plain silly, because it wouldn't have changed how clueless United looked 75% of the match. As it is, United's one goal came from a goalie feckup after a freekick. That's how little United got together, particularly in the first half.
A draw after a penalty would have done nothing to compromise Pep's tactical achievement in that game, it just would have robbed the reward for it.
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We were already all over them. If the penalty had been given, a red card would have possibly been shown too. You think we wouldn't have then been able to really drive home that advantage? They were hanging on by the end. I agree the football wasn't pretty but City were creaking under the pressure and a draw would have been a perfectly fair result.
 
They will win the PL this season by ease. Mourinho and Uniteds squad is just not on the level of shitys. What is clear that the current squad of Shity is worse than what Pep got at Bayern especially when it comes to the deepness of the squad. But Shitys squad and Peps football are (even with this things which are to develop in the future) better than everything in the PL. While United jumped around for fun, cause they hired Pogba for ridicoulus money, Shity got a KDB and a Gündogan. While United got another old man with an anuity contract to have a striker (anybody does a future thinking at United?), Shity got a young Nolito and a Sane. Mourinhos squad development in terms of tactics and in terms of individuals and teamspirit is not so good, and if i see how he treats Micki i see a lot of faults coming around the corner. Pep has some good players in the offensive (KDB,Gündogan,Nolito,Sane,Kun), and is able to develop the squad further also in terms of deepness. Sure there is much work to do, but i see him having a better "base" /starting from a higher level than Mourinho at United, who currently only got 3 outstanding players which you can work some years and develop something (de Gea, Pogba, Micki).
 
Stacks said:
Pep is just a better coach than Lippi and Ancelotti hands down. Look at how his teams develop and evolve. A Pep team is a far more scarier prospect than an Ancelotti or Lippi team. Its not Peps fault that great teams want him. I know who I would want steering my ship
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What is this based from, exactly? Do you remember how Lippi evolved Juventus & that Italy World Cup winning side? Do you remember how Chelsea evolved to the best team in England under Ancelotti? or how he evolved Milan? Made Real Madrid a Champions League winning team again?

I'm not for diverting this thread but you're really getting carried away with Pep here.
 
It's early, for both clubs in Manchester. Just surprised how quickly Pep's impact has been seen in their buildup play. The team chemistry looks quite good too which is always an important yet overlooked aspect
 
slig said:
They will win the PL this season by ease. Mourinho and Uniteds squad is just not on the level of shitys. What is clear that the current squad of Shity is worse than what Pep got at Bayern especially when it comes to the deepness of the squad. But Shitys squad and Peps football are (even with this things which are to develop in the future) better than everything in the PL. While United jumped around for fun, cause they hired Pogba for ridicoulus money, Shity got a KDB and a Gündogan. While United got another old man with an anuity contract to have a striker (anybody does a future thinking at United?), Shity got a young Nolito and a Sane. Mourinhos squad development in terms of tactics and in terms of individuals and teamspirit is not so good, and if i see how he treats Micki i see a lot of faults coming around the corner. Pep has some good players in the offensive (KDB,Gündogan,Nolito,Sane,Kun), and is able to develop the squad further also in terms of deepness. Sure there is much work to do, but i see him having a better "base" /starting from a higher level than Mourinho at United, who currently only got 3 outstanding players which you can work some years and develop something (de Gea, Pogba, Micki).
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Your time frame is wrong. They got KDB last year, Gundogan long before we got Pogba and 'jumoed for joy'
Old man stuff is too ridiculous to talk about.

Oh and Shaw, Bailly, Martial, Rashford, Pogba, TFM to name just a few. How about that for forward thinking?
 
They look great, and they look like a Guardiola team, already, which is impressive.
 
moses said:
They look great, and they look like a Guardiola team, already, which is impressive.
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As pundits pointed out even against Bucharest, just looking at how they were playing you could immediately identify who the coach had to be
 
slig said:
They will win the PL this season by ease. Mourinho and Uniteds squad is just not on the level of shitys. What is clear that the current squad of Shity is worse than what Pep got at Bayern especially when it comes to the deepness of the squad. But Shitys squad and Peps football are (even with this things which are to develop in the future) better than everything in the PL. While United jumped around for fun, cause they hired Pogba for ridicoulus money, Shity got a KDB and a Gündogan. While United got another old man with an anuity contract to have a striker (anybody does a future thinking at United?), Shity got a young Nolito and a Sane. Mourinhos squad development in terms of tactics and in terms of individuals and teamspirit is not so good, and if i see how he treats Micki i see a lot of faults coming around the corner. Pep has some good players in the offensive (KDB,Gündogan,Nolito,Sane,Kun), and is able to develop the squad further also in terms of deepness. Sure there is much work to do, but i see him having a better "base" /starting from a higher level than Mourinho at United, who currently only got 3 outstanding players which you can work some years and develop something (de Gea, Pogba, Micki).
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Probably used that more than the entire United supporters fan base on here in one post :lol:
 
slig said:
They will win the PL this season by ease. Mourinho and Uniteds squad is just not on the level of shitys. What is clear that the current squad of Shity is worse than what Pep got at Bayern especially when it comes to the deepness of the squad. But Shitys squad and Peps football are (even with this things which are to develop in the future) better than everything in the PL. While United jumped around for fun, cause they hired Pogba for ridicoulus money, Shity got a KDB and a Gündogan. While United got another old man with an anuity contract to have a striker (anybody does a future thinking at United?), Shity got a young Nolito and a Sane. Mourinhos squad development in terms of tactics and in terms of individuals and teamspirit is not so good, and if i see how he treats Micki i see a lot of faults coming around the corner. Pep has some good players in the offensive (KDB,Gündogan,Nolito,Sane,Kun), and is able to develop the squad further also in terms of deepness. Sure there is much work to do, but i see him having a better "base" /starting from a higher level than Mourinho at United, who currently only got 3 outstanding players which you can work some years and develop something (de Gea, Pogba, Micki).
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Agree that they're the best but the rest of your post is bullshit. Whether he's old or not Ibrahimovic is still a top player.
Talking about talents to develop for the future, you forgot Shaw, Bailly, Martial, Rashford
 
slig said:
They will win the PL this season by ease. Mourinho and Uniteds squad is just not on the level of shitys. What is clear that the current squad of Shity is worse than what Pep got at Bayern especially when it comes to the deepness of the squad. But Shitys squad and Peps football are (even with this things which are to develop in the future) better than everything in the PL. While United jumped around for fun, cause they hired Pogba for ridicoulus money, Shity got a KDB and a Gündogan. While United got another old man with an anuity contract to have a striker (anybody does a future thinking at United?), Shity got a young Nolito and a Sane. Mourinhos squad development in terms of tactics and in terms of individuals and teamspirit is not so good, and if i see how he treats Micki i see a lot of faults coming around the corner. Pep has some good players in the offensive (KDB,Gündogan,Nolito,Sane,Kun), and is able to develop the squad further also in terms of deepness. Sure there is much work to do, but i see him having a better "base" /starting from a higher level than Mourinho at United, who currently only got 3 outstanding players which you can work some years and develop something (de Gea, Pogba, Micki).
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Young Nolito?
 
NK86 said:
We were already all over them. If the penalty had been given, a red card would have possibly been shown too. You think we wouldn't have then been able to really drive home that advantage? They were hanging on by the end. I agree the football wasn't pretty but City were creaking under the pressure and a draw would have been a perfectly fair result.
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I'd say United were robbed. Clearly the better side. Rooney was outstanding and Pogba bossed the midfield.
 
City always start strong and get over-hyped, same thing is happening this season.

I remember a few seasons ago there was serious debate about on BBC etc whether they were the 'best team in the world', then they faced Barca in the CL and everyone shut up.
 
NK86 said:
We were already all over them. If the penalty had been given, a red card would have possibly been shown too. You think we wouldn't have then been able to really drive home that advantage? They were hanging on by the end. I agree the football wasn't pretty but City were creaking under the pressure and a draw would have been a perfectly fair result.
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Don't you think it's telling that United got back into the game purely by an error from Bravo and the thing that could have turned the game around would have been another mistake from Bravo in giving away a penalty? United really surprised me how poor they were in the derby, I was dreading the game, yet there was no denying on the day City were a level above.
 
BobbyManc said:
Don't you think it's telling that United got back into the game purely by an error from Bravo and the thing that could have turned the game around would have been another mistake from Bravo in giving away a penalty? United really surprised me how poor they were in the derby, I was dreading the game, yet there was no denying on the day City were a level above.
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If we are looking at mistakes, your first and second goals both were down to defensive errors on our part. I don't see you or any other City fan saying that you won only because of our defensive errors.
 
BobbyManc said:
Don't you think it's telling that United got back into the game purely by an error from Bravo and the thing that could have turned the game around would have been another mistake from Bravo in giving away a penalty? United really surprised me how poor they were in the derby, I was dreading the game, yet there was no denying on the day City were a level above.
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Bravo is a member of your team, just as Blind and Bailly who also made defensive errors are a part of our team. I hope that he costs you plenty more goals too as the season progresses.
 
BobbyManc said:
Don't you think it's telling that United got back into the game purely by an error from Bravo and the thing that could have turned the game around would have been another mistake from Bravo in giving away a penalty? United really surprised me how poor they were in the derby, I was dreading the game, yet there was no denying on the day City were a level above.
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First half only. We edged the second in my opinion.

And yes despite City's first half dominance the goals were both down to defensive errors from United.

A deserved win for City no doubt don't get me wrong
 
Ronetta said:
I'd say United were robbed. Clearly the better side. Rooney was outstanding and Pogba bossed the midfield.
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That's not what he said. Nobody thinks United were the better side over 90 mins, but there was a valid penalty shout in the period of the game that United were on top. Oppo fans need to be better posters than you are currently being.
 
BobbyManc said:
Don't you think it's telling that United got back into the game purely by an error from Bravo and the thing that could have turned the game around would have been another mistake from Bravo in giving away a penalty? United really surprised me how poor they were in the derby, I was dreading the game, yet there was no denying on the day City were a level above.
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City were great in the first half, and who knows, maybe one day that will last 90 mins against a rival. The thing is that all the goals had blatant mistakes, so I'm not sure what your point is. If you watched the game you'll know United were lucky to be only a goal down at half time and City were lucky to be in front with a full 11 at full time. Football.
 
moses said:
That's not what he said. Nobody thinks United were the better side over 90 mins, but there was a valid penalty shout in the period of the game that United were on top. Oppo fans need to be better posters than you are currently being.
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Fair comment.

Anyway. No-one's saying it wasn't a valid penalty shout. But what about the question about whether Rooney should have been booked at least twice and probably more than that? Or the possible penalty for the foul on Otamendi? As Bobby said, "this is football". Some decisions go your way and others not.

What I find suprising is that anyone should honestly suggest that the game was more or less even. City bossed the first half and United came back into it in the 2nd, but did United have more chances than City in the 2nd half? No.

It wasn't entirely one-way traffic of course, but I think it's pretty clear that on the day, the better side won. The next time we play, maybe United will be the better side and will win.
 
VP89 said:
What is this based from, exactly? Do you remember how Lippi evolved Juventus & that Italy World Cup winning side? Do you remember how Chelsea evolved to the best team in England under Ancelotti? or how he evolved Milan? Made Real Madrid a Champions League winning team again?

I'm not for diverting this thread but you're really getting carried away with Pep here.
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VP89 said:
What is this based from, exactly? Do you remember how Lippi evolved Juventus & that Italy World Cup winning side? Do you remember how Chelsea evolved to the best team in England under Ancelotti? or how he evolved Milan? Made Real Madrid a Champions League winning team again?

I'm not for diverting this thread but you're really getting carried away with Pep here.
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Yes I do. I also recall Lippi has achieved less in a longer time frame. In 25 years of management, 1 champions league and 5 major league titles, all in the same country. Amazing
Chelsea were the best team for 1 season. Many managers have won a league title on its own. I also remember Ancelotti failing to recreate Lippi's success at Juve. He evolved Milan into a great champions cup side but struggled to win the scudetto. Again, in a 21 year management career, he has 2 major league trophies. All those years in Serie A, 1 title. How could you call them great and not Pep? you must be Italian
 
Arrigo Sacchi gets often put on the GOAT manager lists, and his trophy haul pales in comparison to SAF or Ancelotti or Mourinho (and Pep). And his peak was 3 years at a single club. The reason he's there is because his Milan team was supposed to be revolutionary tactically (with their extreme pressing, offside trap, and zonal play) and that when they were at their peak they dominated elite competitions (back-to-back CLs, Milan 5-0 Madrid).

The closest SAF got to that was in 2006-9 IMO, but that team just about beat Barca and Chelsea in 2008, were flattened by Barca in 2009 and Milan in 2007. Mourinho's Inter won the treble but that was just one season. Ancelotti's Milan were very inconsistent in a much weaker league than early 90s Serie A, and their CL win was attritional to the last.
And none of these provided templates for a new style of play (no one plays the Milan 4-3-2-1). The closest might be Mourinho's defensive tactics but they are for extreme one-off games.

Pep's Barca unquestionably revolutionised tactics with their high line, false 9, and more importantly pressing and possession (2CLs, 3 leagues in 3 years).
 
People simplify things when they measure the achievements of managers by taking into account only the number of their tropheys and the strength of the squads with which they had success. Thus they come to the conclusion that Guardiola isn't all that special because he's worked with the best squads. That's naive, IMO.

Similarly to Cruyff, Rinus Michels won only 1 European Cup and several league titles. That is, he won about as much (actually less) as Trapattoni. Yet, he is regarded as a much greater manager than Trapattoni or Ancelotti and rightly so. Because he revolutionized football. In other words, it is important not only how many tropheys a given manager wins but the manner in which he does it. What is special about Guardiola is not the number of titles he has won but the style in which he achieves it. And it is very special. 30 years from now Ancelotti will be regarded as another Trapattoni (the younger fans probably barely know about him) and Guardiola as another Michels or Cruyff. The bitters are incredibly lucky to have him. Fortunately, it won't last beyond 3 years.
 
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Stacks said:
Yes I do. I also recall Lippi has achieved less in a longer time frame. In 25 years of management, 1 champions league and 5 major league titles, all in the same country. Amazing
Chelsea were the best team for 1 season. Many managers have won a league title on its own. I also remember Ancelotti failing to recreate Lippi's success at Juve. He evolved Milan into a great champions cup side but struggled to win the scudetto. Again, in a 21 year management career, he has 2 major league trophies. All those years in Serie A, 1 title. How could you call them great and not Pep? you must be Italian
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Because Pep had far greater teams to work with when becoming manager. Ancelotti's Champions League haul on its own is more worthy of credit. He's won the Scudetto with Milan, I'm not sure why you're saying he didn't? Unless you're trying to say he didn't win the league in the year he won the Champions League, which isn't really much of a point.

I'm not even going to bother with the Lippi argument - he completely changed Juventus and dominated with them, before taking his home nation on to win the World Cup in 2006. Pep achieved a lot with Barcelona (arguably having the best XI in history to his disposal, mind) and could be credit for their success. It would be unfair not to. But he then went on to Bayern and in my honest opinion made them weaker than where they were under Heyckness.

So, whilst I think Pep will prove himself in time to be up there, there isn't enough evidence to suggest he's there already. This point was commonly made prior to the season's start, why should it be put to bed 4 games in?
 
NK86 said:
If we are looking at mistakes, your first and second goals both were down to defensive errors on our part. I don't see you or any other City fan saying that you won only because of our defensive errors.
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City were dominant in the first half. There's a difference between defensive errors occurring when a side is on top and constantly probing compared to the gift Bravo gave to United. Had City done nothing in the first half but the same movement happened for the first goal then it would be fair to focus on the mistake made by Blind. As it is, United did nothing until Bravo made a mistake. City were on top before both goals arrived.
 
berbatrick said:
Arrigo Sacchi gets often put on the GOAT manager lists, and his trophy haul pales in comparison to SAF or Ancelotti or Mourinho (and Pep). And his peak was 3 years at a single club. The reason he's there is because his Milan team was supposed to be revolutionary tactically (with their extreme pressing, offside trap, and zonal play) and that when they were at their peak they dominated elite competitions (back-to-back CLs, Milan 5-0 Madrid).

The closest SAF got to that was in 2006-9 IMO, but that team just about beat Barca and Chelsea in 2008, were flattened by Barca in 2009 and Milan in 2007. Mourinho's Inter won the treble but that was just one season. Ancelotti's Milan were very inconsistent in a much weaker league than early 90s Serie A, and their CL win was attritional to the last.
And none of these provided templates for a new style of play (no one plays the Milan 4-3-2-1). The closest might be Mourinho's defensive tactics but they are for extreme one-off games.

Pep's Barca unquestionably revolutionised tactics with their high line, false 9, and more importantly pressing and possession (2CLs, 3 leagues in 3 years).
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I'd say it wasn't even that tbh. It was 2006/7 where we were looking like a serious contender until Saha got his last big injury which he never really recovered from. Once we signed Tevez for 2007/8 we looked good in spurts but we never had that fluid chemistry in attack which we had when Saha was leading the line and Rooney and Ronaldo were going here there and everywhere and Giggs was being the consumate Trequartista. That's not to say we didn't have some wonderful matches. We did, but nothing came close to our best displays from the season before. I've said it before, but I don't think we ever came close to the 4-0 away at the Reebok against Bolton in 06/07, Roma 7-1 included.That display had everything and if we had some luck, it probably would have been more. While the Roma match was the perfect storm where almost everything we touched turned to gold.

Once we signed Berbatov, as much as I loved and still love him, we regressed as a proper attacking force. We were slower, and more methodical. It probably helped us in Europe once Ronaldo left, but it definitely wasn't as exciting as it could have been.

Both times we've won the Champions League we made mistakes. In 99 it was in resting on our laurels and not building a better squad, and in 08 it was in going the wrong direction in rebuilding our attack once Saha declined and Ronaldo left.

EDIT - Also, Pep didn't introduce the false 9, it was Spalletti at Roma who put Totti there. What Pep has done is get pressing back in vogue and maybe the full backs in midfield, though I'm not sure how successful that ploy will be in the long-term...
 
BobbyManc said:
City were dominant in the first half. There's a difference between defensive errors occurring when a side is on top and constantly probing compared to the gift Bravo gave to United. Had City done nothing in the first half but the same movement happened for the first goal then it would be fair to focus on the mistake made by Blind. As it is, United did nothing until Bravo made a mistake. City were on top before both goals arrived.
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United dominated the second half and would have deservedly drawn the game if the penalty would have been rightfully awarded. As for the City dominance - yes you did hog a lot of the ball but you weren't really creating chances. A couple of half chances were what you had until that blunder from us. So yes, the situation may not be completely similar but it wasn't as different as you would make it seem.

United were actually improving in the last 10 mins of the first half and Zlatan missed a golden opportunity right at the end of the first half along with a header opportunity which he would bury 9/10 times.
 
NK86 said:
United dominated the second half and would have deservedly drawn the game if the penalty would have been rightfully awarded. As for the City dominance - yes you did hog a lot of the ball but you weren't really creating chances. A couple of half chances were what you had until that blunder from us. So yes, the situation may not be completely similar but it wasn't as different as you would make it seem.

United were actually improving in the last 10 mins of the first half and Zlatan missed a golden opportunity right at the end of the first half along with a header opportunity which he would bury 9/10 times.
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You did not dominate the second half, not even close. You were much improved and at a push shaded it with the hoofball but KDB was the closest to scoring and had our final ball been better We'd have put it out of sight. While a draw wouldn't have been lucky and probably would have been merited. Zlatan skied a few half chances and thats about it. Your best chances all game in the last 5 minutes of the first half where he missed a simple header and failed to get the power into the ball with an open goal. The only domination was Citys for about 35 minutes than it was 5 minutes of you guys while City paniced and the 2nd half was an even enough game with you guys just about shading it as would be expected at Old Trafford when a goal down at half time.
 
Ban said:
Your time frame is wrong. They got KDB last year, Gundogan long before we got Pogba and 'jumoed for joy'
Old man stuff is too ridiculous to talk about.

Oh and Shaw, Bailly, Martial, Rashford, Pogba, TFM to name just a few. How about that for forward thinking?
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Yes, thats what i mean: United focused on Pogba, while they still need a lot in their squad and still got no real deepness with quality.
Shity got KDB a year ago, and added Gündogan. Added Sane, added Nolito, got rid of a useless kepper (tbf thats a point were United is ahead). United just rely on "we got Mourinho now" and though a Ibra (yes he still can score, but: is he good for a longterm develop? Is it possible that it would have been better to get a first class striker who is younger and you can build something up with him? With Ibra in one or tow years you search again...) and a Pogba and a Micki is enough to get back to the tops. Peps skills to build a topteam in 1,2 years and win something with it is just good. Maybe iam taking this to far, cause at Bayern he got a base which was perfect. But if i see the early results at Shity....

Mourinho is not able to develop a squad and a style, which leads his teams to be upfront for some years. Pep is i fear. Which will take this shity shity to some trophys. More annoying: With Pep some people might now think that Shity is seriously a real club. It was a great time when all the world keep laughing about them. I mean, spending a billion euros in 10 years (?) and getting one title out of it, i still have to smile if iam thinking about it.
 
padr81 said:
You did not dominate the second half, not even close. You were much improved and at a push shaded it with the hoofball but KDB was the closest to scoring and had our final ball been better We'd have put it out of sight. While a draw wouldn't have been lucky and probably would have been merited. Zlatan skied a few half chances and thats about it. Your best chances all game in the last 5 minutes of the first half where he missed a simple header and failed to get the power into the ball with an open goal. The only domination was Citys for about 35 minutes than it was 5 minutes of you guys while City paniced and the 2nd half was an even enough game with you guys just about shading it as would be expected at Old Trafford when a goal down at half time.
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Your best chances came in the second half when you were counter attacking. You had 5 at the back and were absolutely under the kosh. I never said our football was pretty or we were playing sumptuous passes cutting through you but you were definitely feeling the pressure and we looked the most likely to score for the last 15 mins and had you pushed back for almost the whole of the second half.
 
When Pep does move on, mostly like in 3 years, what is a real advantage for us is how strong he leaves his teams. For me Barca has benefited usually from what he setup and Luis Enrique has really built from that. Don't get me wrong he's changed tactics a little bit and made his mark but he's certainly built from the good work Pep did. It was interesting to hear what Bayern's CEO said after Pep left too, 'German football owes him a lot, he’s taken the game to the highest level, tactically and strategically' and he went on to say Bayern just need to keep up the good work Pep did basically.

The person I'd like to take from Pep is Spur's manager. Rate him highly but maybe he's too direct? Anyway let's hope Pep stays longer than the three years.
 
Its really irritating to keep reading "Shitty". Don't be a child and just call them by their actual name ffs @slig
 
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