What have Pep &/or Klopp got to do with this?
Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?
- Thread starter Untd55
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He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.
while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.
- signed Maguire for £80m
- signed AWB for £50m
- preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs
- gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline
- gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson
- gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back
)
- signed another average LB
The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.
I think AWB has great potential. He needs to improve positionally, which is certainly possible. Maguire and Lindelof I just think will never be good enough to match our ambition. Ole will just have to bite the bullet on Maguire, accept we overpaid and keep him for back up, if nobody will make a good offer. He can't be kept in the team and as captain simply because he cost a fortune. We are crying out for a world class defender and leader at the back asap.
He built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.
while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.
- signed Maguire for £80m
- signed AWB for £50m
- preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs
- gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline
- gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson
- gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back
- signed another average LB
The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.
Fantastic post, backed up with facts. You can't defend it. It's on Ole. Up to him now.
Our fullbacks and right wing have been our biggest issue for a while now but it's now our defence for me. We're still light on the right wing but Mason's form and Amad's potential makes me believe our fortunes are about to change very soon there.
The only positive I have for our defence, specifically our CBs, is that they are always fit and available. Maguire and Lindelof understand each other and where they should be positioned. Other than that its the area with the least quality in our starting 11 for me. Weak, slow, unassertive and cumbersome. The weaknesses of Maguire and Lindelof means you'll never get a solid defence with both of them.
Throw DDG into the mix, as someone aptly described him as 'GK version of Lindelof' and you have a defence with an extremely soft centre.
A CB is an absolute must in the summer.
The only positive I have for our defence, specifically our CBs, is that they are always fit and available. Maguire and Lindelof understand each other and where they should be positioned. Other than that its the area with the least quality in our starting 11 for me. Weak, slow, unassertive and cumbersome. The weaknesses of Maguire and Lindelof means you'll never get a solid defence with both of them.
Throw DDG into the mix, as someone aptly described him as 'GK version of Lindelof' and you have a defence with an extremely soft centre.
A CB is an absolute must in the summer.
Proper proper shit defence.
I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.
I think it's the worst I've seen at Utd.
Some statistics for all the 'it woz the defence' posters who are once again hammering our CBs for being so terrible that they conceded three shots on target (arguably two if you excuse the one the GK directly causes) in a game against top six opposition.
These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals
As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.
Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.
Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals
As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worse off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.
Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.
See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.
Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede an unusual number of shots on target and we don't give away an unusual number of good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.
Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.
The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).
Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of at least one for his £350K per week.
If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....
These are the statistics for the shots on target faced by the GKs currently playing for our main rivals
| GOALKEEPER | SHOTS FACED | SAVED | GA | % SAVES |
| LLORIS | 89 | 67 | 22 | 75 |
| EDERSON | 44 | 32 | 12 | 73 |
| ALISSON | 52 | 37 | 15 | 71 |
| SCHMEICHEL | 86 | 61 | 25 | 71 |
| MENDY | 45 | 31 | 14 | 69 |
| PICKFORD | 70 | 48 | 22 | 69 |
| DE GEA | 69 | 42 | 27 | 61 |
As you can all clearly see, De Gea is BY FAR the worst GK, in terms of actually saving shots (his job). That's before you even get into the fact that most, if not all, of the GKs above have other standout attributes beyond shot-stopping i.e. Schmeichel = command of area, Ederson = passing out from the back, Alisson = playing as a sweeper-keeper.
Then, I have tried to break that down into something meaningful to show you how big of an impact those numbers have, because on their own I understand it's quite hard to quantify what the difference is between 61% save rate and 71% save rate, for example.
Here is what would happen if a GK with the same percentage save rate as De Gea played for each of our rivals
| IF DEA PLAYED FOR… | SHOTS FACED | SAVED | GA | DIFF +/- |
| TOTTENHAM | 89 | 54 | 35 | 13 |
| MAN CITY | 44 | 27 | 17 | 5 |
| LIVERPOOL | 52 | 32 | 20 | 5 |
| LEICESTER | 86 | 52 | 34 | 9 |
| CHELSEA | 45 | 27 | 18 | 4 |
| EVERTON | 70 | 43 | 27 | 5 |
As you can see, the difference is stark. Chelsea and Everton, neither of whom have good GKs, are both 4 and 5 goals better off respectively. Man City and Liverpool, despite facing a relatively small number of shots, are still five goals worse off. In the case of Man City, that is nearly a 50% increase on their TOTAL goals conceded this year.
Imagine what would happen if De Gea were in goal at Spurs or Leicester! The stats tell you those teams wouldn't even be in a top four race, having conceded 13 and 9 more goals.
See, this is the difference between the good posters (like me) and the bad ones. Many come on here bleating about stuff, mainly influenced by simple narratives pushed by sh**e pundits who don't know their arse from their elbow.
Some of us take the time to dig a bit deeper. The FACT is that United don't concede an unusual number of shots on target and we don't give away an unusual number of good chances. The FACT (sorry to get a Rafa) is that De Gea saves significantly LESS of these shots than his counterparts at our main rivals.
Again, I repeat, this is even before you consider his other major flaws as a GK, compared with the more aggressive, pro-active goalkeeping styles of players like Alisson, Ederson or Schemeichel.
The FACT is people....you can bleat about the defence all you like but football teams will always concede shots on target. No manager yet has worked out how to stop the opposition having ANY shots. No defence yet has been good enough to go an entire PL season without conceding shots on target (FACT).
Therefore, when teams inevitably DO have shots on target, like the three they had on target tonight (I repeat, one as a result of a direct goalkeeping error), it would be quite nice if the t**t between the sticks would have the good grace not to move out the way of at least one for his £350K per week.
If any of you want to seriously argue with me that our defence is poor because a top six team had three (arguably two) shots on our goal then go for it, I'm all ears....
I don't think the defence is good enough.
But there's no doubt that our absolute biggest problem is De Gea and your stats back that up.
He's been an albatross around our neck for around 2 years now. He has to be dropped.
I think at my very first game as a kid, Mike Duxbury and Graeme Hogg were in the defence. It was as bad as it sounds.
I don't think anyone ever said our defense was fixed. It was just improved. This year we seem to be making horrible mistakes and our keeper isn't bailing us out. I can't remember the last time De Gea had a MOTM performance...
Of course it's possible to argue that the defence could be better...my point it even talking about the defence right now when we have De Gea in goal is a bit like replacing your windshield wipers to improve the safety of your car after someone cuts your brakes
Wow... Great analysis !!! Do you have the same stats for Dean Henderson ? Like to see his shot saves capability
any one think dean is a bette fit than DDG for now ?
I‘m fine with the fullbacks. Shaw and AWB are doing well, Telles is a good Backup, especially against deep sitting teams. Walker-Peters would be a good addition so AWB could get a rest sometimes. Would not be cheap of course but if we want to challenge and AWB would be out for some weeks - who would play for him from the current squad?
Bailly was exciting to see but his injury record speaks a different language.
Tuanzebe played that perfect game against PSG and after that he has more yellow cards than any other without nearly having the same time on the pitch.
Lindelöf is not the answer to challenge for trophies - at least not as first choice.
Jones is done obviously.
After an horrible start Maguire improved a lot and I would hope that he just needs a partner - which we could see together with Bailly.
If we can keep Cavani a new CB would be my priority. And some positioning sessions.
Bailly was exciting to see but his injury record speaks a different language.
Tuanzebe played that perfect game against PSG and after that he has more yellow cards than any other without nearly having the same time on the pitch.
Lindelöf is not the answer to challenge for trophies - at least not as first choice.
Jones is done obviously.
After an horrible start Maguire improved a lot and I would hope that he just needs a partner - which we could see together with Bailly.
If we can keep Cavani a new CB would be my priority. And some positioning sessions.
Well.....Henderson has only played 3.5 games in the PL so the sample size is too small to be of any use. However, for the record, Henderson has faced 14 shots on target and conceded 3 goals, so he's operating at 79%...so how any posters can claim 'Henderson is no better' I have no idea....they must have exclusive access to the training ground or something because it's not based on anything that has happened on the pitch!
Also, for comparison purposes, last season at Sheffield United across a much larger sample size, Henderson made 97 saves from 130 shots for a save percentage of 75%...which if I recall was the best in the league and would now be the joint-best in the league with Hugo Lloris.
So again, where this 'Henderson is no better' thing is coming from is absolutely beyond me
I still have more faith in DDG re-discovering his best form than I have in Maguire and Lindelof suddenly becoming far better players. It is true that, whilst form is temporary, class is permanent. Certainly DDG has been inconsistent, but, if I had to choose a new keep or a new centre back, I would go for the centre back and try to find out what's going on with DDG. He's still young for a keeper at 31, but perhaps he has just become stale at United and needs a new challenge? I would hope he can sort it out, but Maguire and Lindelof just don't have the required minimum ability to be mainstays at United, in my humble opinion.
They have a knack of conceding comedy goals. So that's something right?
Relative comparison
You must be very young
A lack of leadership, despite our "captain" being the lead defender.
It will make a difference as it will balance things more. Will it be perfect? Probably not, it certainly won't be Rio and Vidic, but it's our best bet because Maguire is here to stay for a few years.
I not a big fan of this stat. It says absolutely nothing about the qualify of chances and shots a keeper deals with.
Strange because individually I like the back four but as a unit they scare the shit out of me. Not sure what to think of that.
It's the combination of traits. I'd prefer a more aggressive CB next to Maguire.
We paid 80 million pounds for a player worse than the player he replaced leaving us having to play 2 defensive midfielders in pretty much every game so we are short creatively.
The only option somehow is spend another 80 million pounds on another defender who can cover the other guy's limitations or the same price if not more on a better defensive midfielder who can do the work both Fred and Mctominay do defensively and allow us another more attacking option as a result.
Personally i would have thought spending the first 80 million pounds would have gotten us a player that didn't need so much cover and help to not be a liability but apparently not
The only option somehow is spend another 80 million pounds on another defender who can cover the other guy's limitations or the same price if not more on a better defensive midfielder who can do the work both Fred and Mctominay do defensively and allow us another more attacking option as a result.
Personally i would have thought spending the first 80 million pounds would have gotten us a player that didn't need so much cover and help to not be a liability but apparently not
This is all well and good and i personally think De Gea has been pretty shite for a while and is equally at fault for the defensive woes we’ve had this season as have the centre backs. So don’t think this is a defence of him it isn’t.
But for all this stat posturing you’ve cockily put out m, the type of shots saved isn’t defined or mentioned. What are these saves? What kind of chances are these?
For instance that second and third goal today were essentially what I’d describe as ‘clear cut chances’ given up by mediocre defending. Are Ederson, Mendy and Alison facing these kind of clear cut chances as DeGea is? Probably not.
You can bring up all the statistics you want to imply the defence is solid, but it seems the statistic of how many goals we've conceded is never actually brought up.
We're to0 scorers in the league. Even without the Southampton result, we'd have been one of the best going forward.
But we've been conceding goals at a ridiculous rate.
I can't think of many games where we didn't look like conceding at least 1.
We've conceded 30 goals, the highest in the top 10.
I don't really understand how anyone sees that and grovels about our defence not being a problem.
Its been the weak point of this team all season.
We're to0 scorers in the league. Even without the Southampton result, we'd have been one of the best going forward.
But we've been conceding goals at a ridiculous rate.
I can't think of many games where we didn't look like conceding at least 1.
We've conceded 30 goals, the highest in the top 10.
I don't really understand how anyone sees that and grovels about our defence not being a problem.
Its been the weak point of this team all season.
The thing I don’t get is, you can coach defending. Even fecking Burnley can defend, it’s just a case of coaching. There’s no way that Maguire and Lindelof aren’t as good as Tarkowski and whoever is next to him. It’s how they’re drilled.
We’ve got an attack that can win the league, but we’re being let down by a porous defence. It’s like having a mansion without a front door. We’ve done the hard bit, just finish it off.
We’ve got an attack that can win the league, but we’re being let down by a porous defence. It’s like having a mansion without a front door. We’ve done the hard bit, just finish it off.
In an ideal world, Luke Shaw is the only one of the defence that would be a starter next season. Everyone else is average. We also need to look at our defensive coaching and change whoever is there as they are clearly not good enough.
Maguire is great in the air but lacking everywhere else.
Lindelof good passer but very soft and indecisive.
AWB great with one on ones, but positionally all over the place.
In a realistic world we need another RB for competition and two quality CBs to replace Lindelof amd one for competition.
Maguire is great in the air but lacking everywhere else.
Lindelof good passer but very soft and indecisive.
AWB great with one on ones, but positionally all over the place.
In a realistic world we need another RB for competition and two quality CBs to replace Lindelof amd one for competition.
Our defense's main problem post Fergie hasn't been solved, which is the fact it's very inconsistent. We can look rock solid in one game then very shaky the next one. This was the same problem back when all Smalling, Jones, Billy and Rojo were starting for us. They were all great on their day but very inconsistent and when they had a day off, they were terrible. Maguire and Lindelof didn't solve this problem, they are similar unfortunately.
Most fans want to see us play a attacking brand of football. But to play a attacking brand of football, a team needs to create a defensive balance on the turn-over when players are caught up field. The two CBs and the most defensive minded midfielder will then be expected to thwart attacks in 1v1 scenarios. And our starting CBs aren't good enough to defend the channels without the fullbacks in attendance or the two midfielders for support. So what's ended up happening is that we look solid defensively if we're defending in numbers but look vulnerable when attempting to sacrifice defensive stability for goals, where we play a more expansive game with players going forward in numbers.
We don't need the new CB to pass like Pirlo but rather someone who is good on the ball, both at passing and dribbling. But the new CB must be strong at defending the channel and at defending deep. Our league also tests a CB physically and aerially like no other league in Europe, so signing someone short at CB is a big no IMO.
Maguire is a fellow Yorkshire man and I'd love to see him do well. But if I'm honest, apart from his ability aerially he's bang average. And people know my thoughts on Lindelof for a few years now which haven't changed. But I hope we get the CB that Ole wants in the summer window, and until then I look forward to seeing the outlook change game by game with players going from the worst to the best with each passing game-week in the eyes of the fans.
We don't need the new CB to pass like Pirlo but rather someone who is good on the ball, both at passing and dribbling. But the new CB must be strong at defending the channel and at defending deep. Our league also tests a CB physically and aerially like no other league in Europe, so signing someone short at CB is a big no IMO.
Maguire is a fellow Yorkshire man and I'd love to see him do well. But if I'm honest, apart from his ability aerially he's bang average. And people know my thoughts on Lindelof for a few years now which haven't changed. But I hope we get the CB that Ole wants in the summer window, and until then I look forward to seeing the outlook change game by game with players going from the worst to the best with each passing game-week in the eyes of the fans.
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At rate equals to that season when Mou was looking to get sack, when some love to use that to shit on Smalling. I wonder what happen to those people?
We need not one, but two CBs now.
Also need a new GK to compete with Hendo. DDG should leave gracefully before he has to leave sourly.
Also need a new GK to compete with Hendo. DDG should leave gracefully before he has to leave sourly.
That's a bit depressing. So much spent and still such an average defense. Two important points to note hereHe built that back 5 himself though. Nearly all the back 5 players in the squad are his players.
while giving some players away for either peanuts (Smalling, TFM, Darmian) or nothing (Rojo, Romero). And there are people who genuinely believe he's done a great job in rebuilding the defence. He spent so much on defence only to make it worse. Why should he get another £150m to "sort out" the defence when he hasn't got a clue about it? He's got the most expensive CB on his hands who is his signing.
- signed Maguire for £80m
- signed AWB for £50m
- preferred Lindelöf to Smalling, Bailly, Rojo etc. and made him one of his first choice CBs
- gave a stupidly big contract to De Gea despite his apparent decline
- gave another stupidly big contract to no2 GK in Henderson
- gave Jones a stupidly long contract (and still says he expects Jones back
- signed another average LB
The only player(s) who are performing in that defence are not his players: Luke Shaw and Eric Bailly. Surprise, surprise.
- Even leaving individual ability and mistakes aside, we don't look a better drilled team defensively compared to what we were 2-3 years back. We aren't getting stronger in our collective organisation which is the whole point of coaching a unit.
- We aren't even one of those super attacking teams. We score goals when individuals turn it on, but nobody looks at this Manchester United team and thinks of how we really over commit as an attacking force.
Not sure if you've noticed, but we build out from the back now, which requires technically strong centre-backs, i.e., not Smalling. If we were still hoofing the ball to Fellaini, Zlatan, or Lukaku, Smalling would be perfectly... acceptable as a squad option.
I know. That's not the point though. People shit on Smalling, using that Mou's last season to show how improved the backline defensively since adding 135m to defence. Which is a silly comparison to begin with, when using that season as comparison.
I got criticised last year for saying that we had a lousy defense because my main point was that a good defense doesn't leak a goal a game and idiots kept pointing that we had the third best defense in the league which meant that we had a good one.
Let's actually get defenders based on how good they can defend first rather than how well they can play the ball out. Fix the defense and it'll allow us to play a midfield which doesn't need both Fred and Scott playing at the same time which would improve us in midfield and attack as well.
Let's actually get defenders based on how good they can defend first rather than how well they can play the ball out. Fix the defense and it'll allow us to play a midfield which doesn't need both Fred and Scott playing at the same time which would improve us in midfield and attack as well.
And yet our best attacking outlet from defense is still passing it to Shaw and letting him drive down the flank.
Our playing out from the back is overrated because 90% of our centrebacks' passing is 5m passes to each other or Fred and De Gea. It doesn't take that much technical ability to do their passes.
We just need a CB with Bailly's profile (except fitness level). If he's a beast on heading, that's even better.
It looks like we’re now great at going forward but awful at the back. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that there’s only a few games this season where we’ve won comfortably, we concede a lot of goals.
Let’s face it, this defence and goalkeeper isn’t that bad on paper and is conceding way more goals than the sum of its parts should and that comes down to what happens on the training pitch. Yes, we need more pace in the middle of defence, which would improve it, as we’ve seen when Bailly has played recently. The lack of pace was highlighted in the game last night with DCL against our CB’s, however, they seemed to cope with it on the whole and it was a DDG howler that gifted them the first goal, despite Maguire being beaten for pace on the left.
The biggest issue, for me, with this defence is they’re so poor at set pieces and that includes the goalkeeper. How many times have we conceded from set plays this season? I can’t be bothered to look it up but we’ll be right up there with the worst in the league. This is down to what’s done on the training pitch. Every time we concede a corner or free kick the fans are nervous, I know I’m not alone. When Tuanzebe thought it would be a great idea to lunge at their player on the half way line and give them a last second chance to get a goal, I started to walk to the door and watch the game from the doorway as I was certain what was coming and they didn’t fail to live up to expectations.
Basic things like holding the same line?! AWB was guilty of it a couple of times in the first half and Maguire did it in the 95th minute.
Let’s face it, this defence and goalkeeper isn’t that bad on paper and is conceding way more goals than the sum of its parts should and that comes down to what happens on the training pitch. Yes, we need more pace in the middle of defence, which would improve it, as we’ve seen when Bailly has played recently. The lack of pace was highlighted in the game last night with DCL against our CB’s, however, they seemed to cope with it on the whole and it was a DDG howler that gifted them the first goal, despite Maguire being beaten for pace on the left.
The biggest issue, for me, with this defence is they’re so poor at set pieces and that includes the goalkeeper. How many times have we conceded from set plays this season? I can’t be bothered to look it up but we’ll be right up there with the worst in the league. This is down to what’s done on the training pitch. Every time we concede a corner or free kick the fans are nervous, I know I’m not alone. When Tuanzebe thought it would be a great idea to lunge at their player on the half way line and give them a last second chance to get a goal, I started to walk to the door and watch the game from the doorway as I was certain what was coming and they didn’t fail to live up to expectations.
Basic things like holding the same line?! AWB was guilty of it a couple of times in the first half and Maguire did it in the 95th minute.
I agree, Bailly without the rashness and with added aerial ability is what this team is yearning for. But Bailly for me needs to play more often in the current season.