Our Defence - Has it actually been fixed?

It's absolutely insane that Ole / The board / whoever can look at our centre backs and think "yep... we're sorted there"

And i don't just mean after Spurs, they should have been saying this for months.

Rozay said:
I suspect we’d not have conceded that first goal if he had played, and that equaliser so soon changed a lot I think. Maguire is terrible though.
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I don't think Lindelof could have done much about the one man wrecking crew that is Harry Maguire.
 
Can’t we loan Rudiger from Chelsea or something?
 
The thing is, I saw tons of fans here who said that no CB/ defensive player is needed, only based on the fact that United conceded the 2nd less goals in the league. To me this is a very dangerouus take and to me it looked like Ole and the board shared the same thought.

It is insane with what kind of arrogance some people said it when youu look back at the threads.
 
Even in a lot of our "good" defensive performances last year it was look through your hands stuff, with VAR saving us often, or a De Gea wonder save.

The answer is quite obviously no.
 
Hansinity said:
The thing is, I saw tons of fans here who said that no CB/ defensive player is needed, only based on the fact that United conceded the 2nd less goals in the league. To me this is a very dangerouus take and to me it looked like Ole and the board shared the same thought.

It is insane with what kind of arrogance some people said it when youu look back at the threads.
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It's surprising that you find people having different opinion on which area to strengthen as 'arrogance'.

IIRC majority on caf agreed that RW is the priority position and then split between CB, LB and DM. All these were considered as problem areas.
 
Rozay said:
Can’t we loan Rudiger from Chelsea or something?
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It's amazing that Chelsea are letting him go. He's their best defender and would be the best at United too if they signed him.
 
POF said:
It's amazing that Chelsea are letting him go. He's their best defender and would be the best at United too if they signed him.
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Indeed, I don’t get it. But then managers have suddenly become very weird with the centre half position anyway. If you ask me, we are also trying to get rid of our best centre half. Everyone is trying to reinvent the position so it’s a new day now.
 
Rozay said:
Indeed, I don’t get it. But then managers have suddenly become very weird with the centre half position anyway. If you ask me, we are also trying to get rid of our best centre half. Everyone is trying to reinvent the position so it’s a new day now.
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I agree. It seems like stopping the opposition from scoring goals is no longer a key requirement for a centre back. As long as you can play out from the back.
 
POF said:
I agree. It seems like stopping the opposition from scoring goals is no longer a key requirement for a centre back. As long as you can play out from the back.
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Tbh the writing has been on the wall since even goalkeepers are judged by their ability to create more than anything else.
 
Towards the end of last season we actually looked okay in defence. I think the impressive record perhaps painted a slightly rosier picture than the reality, but we were certainly improving.

This season has started off as a disaster, which I think is as a result of a combination of contributing factors (beyond our defenders being shite...):
  1. Maguire has started this season dreadfully - I think we all got used to the occasional brainfart from him last season but he was generally quite solid and calm at the back. His inexplicable involvement in Spurs' first goal, attempting to head it back towards Bailly, suggests he's just not focused. I think his summer ordeal has absolutely impacted his mental state.
  2. Matic had a resurgence towards the end of last season which I think lulled people into believing he was still the right choice for our DM position. Fact is, he's still painfully slow and, more worrying for me, he seems to have lost his positional intuition. This has caused our CBs to have to push up to cover the gap behind him which is resulting in space in behind for strikers to run into or, if the full backs attempt to narrow to cover, miles of space out wide to exploit.
  3. Our full backs have zero position sense. They're both pretty good 1 v 1 defenders and enjoy the odd spectacular last ditch tackle but, in terms of working in a marshalled defence, they're always in the wrong position. The amount of times that AWB ends up in the middle of the area as the ball sails over his head to the opposing left winger.... infuriates me!
  4. Total inability throughout the team to play out from the back. Of our entire defence and midfield, the only player I have confidence in receiving the ball in our own half under pressure and still being able to find an outlet is Bruno. Pogba's deterioration in this sense is absolutely remarkable: he used to revel in dropping deep with his back to an opposing player so he could receive the ball, control it, turn and get a pass away. Yes, he would occasionally showboat and frustratingly lose the ball, but that's the risk / reward debate. However, now he seems almost physically unable to control and shield a ball under pressure.
After a bad defeat, SAF used to go 'back to basics' on the training ground and we'd often see a few weeks of grinding out results and clean sheets. Nothing I've seen under the current regime suggests we have the right people coaching the side to make them more defensively resolute.
 
Rozay said:
Tbh the writing has been on the wall since even goalkeepers are judged by their ability to create more than anything else.
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It's just the latest fad.

It will turn back when a team is successful with a more pragmatic approach.
 
acrebo said:
After a bad defeat, SAF used to go 'back to basics' on the training ground and we'd often see a few weeks of grinding out results and clean sheets. Nothing I've seen under the current regime suggests we have the right people coaching the side to make them more defensively resolute.
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Indeed. After the City 6-1 we won 4 of our next 5 games 1-0...and we would have won all five if the ref hadn't given one of the worst awards of a penalty I've ever seen at Old Trafford to Newcastle
 
Rozay said:
Can’t we loan Rudiger from Chelsea or something?
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He's fecking trainwreck. Roma rather paid money for Smalling (even though trying to be saint), when Rudiger is being whored around by Chelsea for loan; says it all. Rudiger "knows the club", and everything.

Just throw Mengi or whoever into deep end now. It's not like they can do worse.
 
POF said:
It's amazing that Chelsea are letting him go. He's their best defender and would be the best at United too if they signed him.
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When he has good games, he is their best, but when he has bad days, he would make Maguire worth 80mil. Of course, good games he didn't have that many. Kepa let in a few savable goals, but the rest had more to do with players before him, which Rudiger was one of the suspect.
 
It's just round and round in circles with the Utd defence until people realise that the common denominator this past ten years is De Gea.
We could have prime Vidic and Rio and they would struggle playing with a goalkeeper that literally just stays rooted to the line and offers zero support or command of the box.

Our defenders were awful yesterday, don't get me wrong, but those first two goals are barely even chances if the keeper is switched on and comes and collects or clears it, 99% of other keepers do this, it's a very basic part of goalkeeping.

I've banging this drum for ten years now and I'm still genuinely baffled how people still can't see the absolute chaos this causes in our defence literally every week.
It's not going to change until this is sorted.

To make matters worse, he's the highest paid player in the league.
 
acrebo said:
Towards the end of last season we actually looked okay in defence. I think the impressive record perhaps painted a slightly rosier picture than the reality, but we were certainly improving.

This season has started off as a disaster, which I think is as a result of a combination of contributing factors (beyond our defenders being shite...):
  1. Maguire has started this season dreadfully - I think we all got used to the occasional brainfart from him last season but he was generally quite solid and calm at the back. His inexplicable involvement in Spurs' first goal, attempting to head it back towards Bailly, suggests he's just not focused. I think his summer ordeal has absolutely impacted his mental state.
  2. Matic had a resurgence towards the end of last season which I think lulled people into believing he was still the right choice for our DM position. Fact is, he's still painfully slow and, more worrying for me, he seems to have lost his positional intuition. This has caused our CBs to have to push up to cover the gap behind him which is resulting in space in behind for strikers to run into or, if the full backs attempt to narrow to cover, miles of space out wide to exploit.
  3. Our full backs have zero position sense. They're both pretty good 1 v 1 defenders and enjoy the odd spectacular last ditch tackle but, in terms of working in a marshalled defence, they're always in the wrong position. The amount of times that AWB ends up in the middle of the area as the ball sails over his head to the opposing left winger.... infuriates me!
  4. Total inability throughout the team to play out from the back. Of our entire defence and midfield, the only player I have confidence in receiving the ball in our own half under pressure and still being able to find an outlet is Bruno. Pogba's deterioration in this sense is absolutely remarkable: he used to revel in dropping deep with his back to an opposing player so he could receive the ball, control it, turn and get a pass away. Yes, he would occasionally showboat and frustratingly lose the ball, but that's the risk / reward debate. However, now he seems almost physically unable to control and shield a ball under pressure.
After a bad defeat, SAF used to go 'back to basics' on the training ground and we'd often see a few weeks of grinding out results and clean sheets. Nothing I've seen under the current regime suggests we have the right people coaching the side to make them more defensively resolute.
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pretty sound
 
I think Ole has to revert to a more defensive shape from now on. Concede possession and try to fill in the gaps in the defense, and try to nick a goal or to on the counter.

We have a decent defense and we saw that last season, but the horrific start to this season is probably due to several factors.Now the focus should be on playing a lower line and try to grind out results.
 
The most concerning thing for me is knowing just how below their level pretty much all our defenders end up settling in at.

Right now, AWB is 100 times better defensively than what he's showing. Bailly, Lindelof and Maguire whilst not being world beaters are better than what they've shown recently, and Shaw is definitely better than how he's started this season.

But maybe this is something the squad individually suffers from across the board. They all drop off massively, and then the ruts set in.
 
We currently have
  • Maguire
  • Lindelof
  • Bailley
  • Smalling
  • Rojo
  • Jones
  • Tuanzebe
  • Fosu Mensah?
  • Mengi

That's our list of CBs. We can field a starting 11 of CBs/ provisional CBs and not one that can inspire confidence. It's a joke. Can't even sign a new one until we can figure this mess out

Edit: added Mengi
 
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Interval said:
We currently have
  • Maguire
  • Ljndelof
  • Bailley
  • Smalling
  • Rojo
  • Jones
  • Tuanzebe
  • Fosu Mensah?

That's our list of CBs. We can field a starting 11 of CBs/ provisional CBs and not one that can inspire confidence. It's a joke. Can't even sign a new one until we can figure this mess out
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You can add Mengi to that list, as he's been training with the first team.
 
I think what yesterday showed was that whilst we need an upgrade to Maguire + Lindelof, sticking Bailly in there is absolutely not the solution. He instills panic in everyone.
Then we need to drop AWB + Shaw until they learn how to defend again. Play Williams + Telles instead.
We should drop DDG, Henderson is ready and seems much calmer and commanding.
We should drop Matic + Pogba. Play Fred + DVdB/McT. We need midfielders even if they are limited that works their socks off.
 
roonster09 said:
It's surprising that you find people having different opinion on which area to strengthen as 'arrogance'.

IIRC majority on caf agreed that RW is the priority position and then split between CB, LB and DM. All these were considered as problem areas.
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none of which we have addressed. It’s laughable
 
Would like to see Maguire and Smalling if he's not going.

United are still making huge mistakes though, we have De Gea on a crazy high and long contract and spent 130 million on Maguire and AWB who have been the worst performers.

Would love to see more of Hendo in the first team to see how we play and change.
 
I think going forward rather than identifying our weak areas that need strengthening Ole and Co should look at the places where we're strong and use that as a starting block...... GK / AM (Fernandes/VDB) ????? Which means we need a CB, LB, RB, DM, RW, competition for LW oh and no.9!!! Back to the drawing board Ole!!
 
acrebo said:
Towards the end of last season we actually looked okay in defence. I think the impressive record perhaps painted a slightly rosier picture than the reality, but we were certainly improving.

This season has started off as a disaster, which I think is as a result of a combination of contributing factors (beyond our defenders being shite...):
  1. Maguire has started this season dreadfully - I think we all got used to the occasional brainfart from him last season but he was generally quite solid and calm at the back. His inexplicable involvement in Spurs' first goal, attempting to head it back towards Bailly, suggests he's just not focused. I think his summer ordeal has absolutely impacted his mental state.
  2. Matic had a resurgence towards the end of last season which I think lulled people into believing he was still the right choice for our DM position. Fact is, he's still painfully slow and, more worrying for me, he seems to have lost his positional intuition. This has caused our CBs to have to push up to cover the gap behind him which is resulting in space in behind for strikers to run into or, if the full backs attempt to narrow to cover, miles of space out wide to exploit.
  3. Our full backs have zero position sense. They're both pretty good 1 v 1 defenders and enjoy the odd spectacular last ditch tackle but, in terms of working in a marshalled defence, they're always in the wrong position. The amount of times that AWB ends up in the middle of the area as the ball sails over his head to the opposing left winger.... infuriates me!
  4. Total inability throughout the team to play out from the back. Of our entire defence and midfield, the only player I have confidence in receiving the ball in our own half under pressure and still being able to find an outlet is Bruno. Pogba's deterioration in this sense is absolutely remarkable: he used to revel in dropping deep with his back to an opposing player so he could receive the ball, control it, turn and get a pass away. Yes, he would occasionally showboat and frustratingly lose the ball, but that's the risk / reward debate. However, now he seems almost physically unable to control and shield a ball under pressure.
After a bad defeat, SAF used to go 'back to basics' on the training ground and we'd often see a few weeks of grinding out results and clean sheets. Nothing I've seen under the current regime suggests we have the right people coaching the side to make them more defensively resolute.
Click to expand...

I honestly think Pogba has lost his confidence/happiness. Looks like a depressed man out there
 
Defense was never completely fixed. Even if we have Upamecano instead it still has problem because when you have Pogba & Matic partnership, there is zero protection in front of the defense. Need more hard working and energetic midfield in front of them and there will be improvement defensively (not fix the whole problems but it can improve). Look at Bayern double pivot midfield, Kimmich & Goretzka, if you watch them play, they interchange role, work their socks off running up and down to go attack and defense & winning lot of 2nd ball.

We'll be ruined by RB Leipzig press if we play Pogba & Matic pair against them. Fortunately, we have alternative midfielders beside them unlike our defense.
 
POF said:
It's amazing that Chelsea are letting him go. He's their best defender and would be the best at United too if they signed him.
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Rudiger is nowhere near our best defender. He's been ruined by injuries - lost all his pace and now can't win a header to save his life. He's comfortably our worst CB at the moment.
 
bondsname said:
I think Ole has to revert to a more defensive shape from now on. Concede possession and try to fill in the gaps in the defense, and try to nick a goal or to on the counter.

We have a decent defense and we saw that last season, but the horrific start to this season is probably due to several factors.Now the focus should be on playing a lower line and try to grind out results.
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He's gotta do something that is for sure. maybe go with 3 at the back (though I am not a fan), or play a diamond in midfield, or go with Fred and McTominay or Fred and Matic as the 2 holding midfielders. Give Maguire a few weeks off to get his head right, give Smalling a couple chances if he is not sold. Anything besides what this team has done for the first few weeks of the season. The team has conceded 3 to Crystal Palace, 2 to Brighton when it could have been 5 if not for the woodwork, and now 6 to Tottenham.
 
Why the hell aren't you signing a new CB? Unless the plan is just to give Axel a run of games up to January if he can stay fit for 5 minutes it seems a bit odd.

Thought Maguire had a good first season on the whole but he's clearly been affected by the whole Greece tragedy so massive decline in his performances so far. Bailly is Bailly and Lindelof has one mistake lurking in key games usually.

Feels like one of those seasons where teams will just keep on exploiting the soft centre you have although can limit the damage by getting some structure back into the midfield.
 
The back line will be under so much pressure now they’ll be shitting themselves before the game even starts. We need a whole new back four, another damning indictment of our recruitment. Luckily we at least got Henderson for when De Gea finally makes one mistake too many.
 
I guess one sign for optimism is that in the last five games the only goals we have conceded have been one from the penalty spot and two own goals. That feels decent when you consider we have played PSG, Leipzig, Chelsea and Arsenal.
 
TMDaines said:
I guess one sign for optimism is that in the last five games the only goals we have conceded have been one from the penalty spot and two own goals. That feels decent when you consider we have played PSG, Leipzig, Chelsea and Arsenal.
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Problem is I feel a big part of it is due to the midfield duo we play. It means we have seven defensive minded players on the pitch and there's a price to pay for it in attack.
 
The issue to get this record is we have had to play 6 predominantly defensive players, leaving us with only 4 attackers. I think the defence is still a major issue as we have to sacrifice a lot for it to work.
 
I see why people are blaming midfield for being too defensive oriented, but I have never seen us playing through an organised pressing like today from Arsenal. We had two attacking midfielders, and two (best available) attackers. There was nobody who could provide natural width and danger from the wings.
You could make a case to play van de Beek, but it's all "on paper" kind of discussion. We weren't even that good against RB with Donny on the pitch.

We're decent defensively, but need to work on a system to improve going forward. It's not about Fred - McTominay being shit.
 
Borys said:
I see why people are blaming midfield for being too defensive oriented, but I have never seen us playing through an organised pressing like today from Arsenal. We had two attacking midfielders, and two (best available) attackers. There was nobody who could provide natural width and danger from the wings.

We're decent defensively, but need to work on a system to improve going forward. It's not about Fred - McTominay being shit.
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Blame is probably too big a word. Anyhow, the issue isn't the attack, it's the defence. Since Spurs we've been using a more defensive oriented midfield, which means it's hard to judge the backline's improvement.

All due respect to the system, though, as long as we play with two midfielders and two full backs who are limited offensively, so will the entire team be.
 
After the Spurs game, something had to be done, and fixing the defence was the most obvious thing imo. We changed to a more defensive /better balanced (depending on who you ask) midfield. But it is not like we went from scoring heaps of goals to nothing.

If we look at the PL and CL matches before and after Spurs.
Until Spurs:
1-3 loss vs Palace
3-2 win vs Brighton
1-6 loss vs Spurs

5 goals scored and 11 conceded

After:
4-1 win vs Newcastle
2-1 win vs PSG
0-0 vs Chelsea
5-0 win vs Leipzig
0-1 loss vs Arsenal

11 goals scored and 3 conceded (of which 2 own goals and 1 penalty)
 
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