Onana has not worked out. We need a new keeper.

sebsheep said:
You're not actually watching the games, are you?
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No mate, I don’t even like football. Im just trying to fit in with the cool kids :rolleyes:

Okay, so he saved a penalty, was decent vs Everton and then did a spinny turny thing. And then he was a liability again. And that counts as ‘a good run of games’. Pretty low bar.
 
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jderbyshire said:
I'm actually not sure where I stand on Onana yet.

I dread every time the opposition has shot, but statistically he's one of the best shot stoppers around this season, apparently.

But why are most ignoring the fact he's been dropped by Cameroon?

How significant is this? What do we think?
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David de Gea was dropped by his national team when people here were claiming that he was the best goalkeeper in the world. I also dont think Onana his situation/relationship with his national team is 'normal'. So i dont think him being dropped is anything to worry about.

Hopefully he just retires from his national team again. That is best for Manchester United anyway.
 
sebsheep said:
Yet again, you made a weird thread to slate the guy.
You at one point had to walk back on that after he had a good run of performances before changing the title again because of an error. Now every time we concede you seem to be in here calling him rubbish no matter if it was his fault.
But sure, other people are obsessed.
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It seems like a perfect game for @Plant0x84 would be where Manchester United wins the game 4-3 but Onana makes 3 howlers :lol:
 
poleglass red said:
haven't teams sussed him out though, by not pressing and instead cut off his passing options at the back, forcing him to go long, where none of our front 3 are comfortable in holding up the ball. He gets stick for taking so long to play the pass, that's because he's trying to find a pass, he can't find one and then goes long.
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So have the likes of Alisson, Raya, Vicario, Ederson and others been found out as well? They are all good passers, and all of them play a crucial part in their teams' build-up phase. All of them help their teams play out of the high press. They are all carrying out similar tactical instructions as Onana, and provide the same advantages as he does, when building out from the back.

If Onana goes long, it's either a tactical instruction from ETH, or the outfield players aren't getting into good positions for him, forcing him to go long.

The Liverpool game is one of, if not the best examples of what he can provide against a well-drilled, high press that De Gea never could.
 
jderbyshire said:
I'm actually not sure where I stand on Onana yet.

I dread every time the opposition has shot, but statistically he's one of the best shot stoppers around this season, apparently.

But why are most ignoring the fact he's been dropped by Cameroon?

How significant is this? What do we think?
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Probably because everyone knows he is shite so it encourages the opponents to have a go at him for every half chances they have.
 
sebsheep said:
I'm saying his passing is very good. That is not excusing anything.
Stating that longer balls will be less accurate is just a basic fact. It's not complicated.
Why would his good passing just be reserved for short passes? Again I never said that and if you watched our games you would have seen quite a few longer passes from him that have set up very good chances.

You can be critical without denying his positives.
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Why do posters need to reply in such a condescending manner? Phrases like it’s not complicated, if you watched our games?
Funnily enough I do watch every single one of our games, that’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t like him and don’t think he’s good enough. His passing is over rated, he doesn’t know how to dive, he doesn’t come off his line for corners. I’m not someone who looks at stat tables so I can swing my argument one way or another
 
Zlatan 7 said:
Why do posters need to reply in such a condescending manner? Phrases like it’s not complicated, if you watched our games?
Funnily enough I do watch every single one of our games, that’s why I’ve come to the conclusion that I don’t like him and don’t think he’s good enough. His passing is over rated, he doesn’t know how to dive, he doesn’t come off his line for corners. I’m not someone who looks at stat tables so I can swing my argument one way or another
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You accused me of making excuses, now you want to complain about the way I responded...
Your last sentence is then pretty condescending to people who do like to use stats. :lol:
 
sebsheep said:
You accused me of making excuses, now you want to complain about the way I responded...
Your last sentence is then pretty condescending to people who do like to use stats. :lol:
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When I mentioned that he’s overrated for his passing ability and he’s hoofed out of play numerous times ylu said that’s to be expected playing a long ball. Sounds like an excuse to me. You’re excusing him.

As for the stats, people are welcome to watch football how they want, I’d just prefer to watch a live game or game on tv than delve into spreadsheets. That’s not condescending. Just recognising the difference in how people rate players
 
jderbyshire said:
I'm actually not sure where I stand on Onana yet.

I dread every time the opposition has shot, but statistically he's one of the best shot stoppers around this season, apparently.

But why are most ignoring the fact he's been dropped by Cameroon?

How significant is this? What do we think?
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Don't believe your lying eyes!

I've no confidence in him unfortunately and I imagine, based on the split in this thread, at least half the team probably don't have confidence in him either which is mortal for a keeper at United. It's the hardest position on the pitch for our club and I think Onana falls into the talented but eccentric group of keepers, the last one I remember who fell into that category was Barthez and he was playing for a more settled club and for my money a lot more talented than Onana.

I hope he turns it around, maybe if the manager fixes the system and prioritises the team not being cut open every 5 minutes it will give him a chance to grow into the position.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
When I mentioned that he’s overrated for his passing ability and he’s hoofed out of play numerous times ylu said that’s to be expected playing a long ball. Sounds like an excuse to me. You’re excusing him.

As for the stats, people are welcome to watch football how they want, I’d just prefer to watch a live game or game on tv than delve into spreadsheets. That’s not condescending. Just recognising the difference in how people rate players
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I'm stating a fact. Do you think long balls are as accurate?
The problem seems to be that you're suggesting had just constantly kicks the ball out of play, but it's not visually or statistically true. Me pointing out you're wrong or why a longer pass may go out of play isn't creating an excuse.

What did you mean by the swinging your opinion either way comment?
 
sebsheep said:
I'm stating a fact. Do you think long balls are as accurate?
The problem seems to be that you're suggesting had just constantly kicks the ball out of play, but it's not visually or statistically true. Me pointing out you're wrong or why a longer pass may go out of play isn't creating an excuse.

What did you mean by the swinging your opinion either way comment?
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That depending on your initial opinion you can read a stat how ever you want or find stats that back up your opinion.

watching a match it’s clear to see he can’t dive
 
Zlatan 7 said:
That depending on your initial opinion you can read a stat how ever you want or find stats that back up your opinion.

watching a match it’s clear to see he can’t dive
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So just a tad condescending to those who use stats then?
 
I think he's a strange one. I also think he's a slight proof that stats can be very misleading. He is ranked third ? for shot stopping in the league. However, watching all of the games and paying extra attention to goalies, he's surely a below standard shot stopper. That is not a question, btw. Schmeichel commented on his technique saving, or rather being unable to save, low shots. His reach also doesn't seem anything special. Fairly ofte he gets his fingers to a ball, or even his hand, but the ball still escapes him. It's happened a few times. Then you have a fair few shots that are debated could he, should he have saved it. You don't get that often with goalies like Allisson, prime DDG etc. When they are beaten, most goalies would be beaten on a general basis. With Onana, there are so many shots that aren't mistakes per se, but they are saveable. That's a huge concern - if he saves those, we clearly concede less goals and thus we are in a better position to increase our point tally.

Then you have his commanding of his box, or lack of. I can't see much of an upgrade here. He also chooses to punch the ball where others such as Vicario, Pope and Allisson would catch the ball. We are terrible defensively on crosses, and he's not progressed our play here much, if any.

His sweeping has improved our high line to some extent, but he's still far from the best such as Ederson, Allisson and Vicario.

He is extremely press resistant, though - maybe even more so than Ederson, which is saying something. His short passing is also very crisp. However, I don't think he's quite Ederson level, especially not with his long range passing, which is too often over hit. He strikes the ball extremely well, so when the direction is spot on, he can deliver some really terrific through balls - but even DDG did that from time to time. He needs to be more consistent in his long range deliveries. He also takes too long on the ball for my liking, which is detrimental to our style of play and progressing the ball.

Overall, I would characterise his overall contribution thus far as below average. For the price payed, it just hasn't been good enough. I think we need to give him one more season, but he needs to improve this second half with Casemiro and Martinez coming back from injuries. With them and Shaw on lb, he has very few excuses in terms of relationship with the defense and playing out from the back.
 
I'm very uncomfortable with him in the team as things are at the moment. People have said that stats indicate he's one of the better shot stoppers in the league but I'm unsure if this is based on number of shots saved or expected saves.

Either way, watching all the games, it feels like he's let a relatively high number of shots past him that I feel De Gea would be saving, not to mention the good keepers in the league. That's before even mentioning the huge errors he's made.

I don't know whether Ten Hag feels he needs to play him because the money spent on him but I'm seen keepers dropped for a lot less over the years.

He might be pretty composed with the ball at his feet but when watching the games, I don't think this has brought a big enough tangible improvement to the team to offset the negatives so far.
 
Our fans enable our players to become memes.

Imagine he played for Liverpool. They would be defending him to the death.
 
Plant0x84 said:
That video is as pointless as all the negative fails comps. It was one game, probably the game of his life (still lost) and on his showing this season you’d have to summarise that he isn’t that guy anymore, for club OR country.
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It's not pointless. He was man of the match against the best team in the world in the most important match of their history (and they're possibly the greatest club side of all time) whose game heavily involves pressing their opponents in their own half, trying to win back possession as high up the pitch as possible. You noting that Onana still lost the game despite his great performance (What could he do about Inter's forwards not putting away a single chance?) clearly signals that you've chosen to go with a certain narrative, and nothing will change your mind, however:

Onana's most valuable qualities are being a great passer and his incredible press-resistance. If I recall correctly, even Pep said that trying to press Onana is useless because he's so good at resisting it.

These days, almost every successful side has a manager that heavily copies Pep's style of football and his principles. That means every one of these teams need a goalkeeper that has these qualities.

I'm not saying that Onana will ever become a world-class shot stopper, or someone like Alisson or Neuer, who at the peak of their powers were incredible at everything a keeper needs to do, but in a possession-based side, that's actually a well-oiled unit, Onana would have to make saves with a significantly less frequency. That's why Pep has had Ederson as his number one for 7 years. Not among the bests at shot-stopping, but a great passer, great with his feet, etc. the same strengths that Onana has, and Pep wouldn't have it any other way.

Ederson has faced 51 shots in the PL so far this season, and has made 32 saves. Onana has had to make 72 saves, because he has faced 100 shots already.

If Onana can make the howlers go away, and we progress as a team, not only will he not be a hindrance, he can be a great asset to the team.
 
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Onana may well be a top keeper, but he has one disaster in him every few games, seemingly from (not) stopping simple shots, not good.
Let's see what Sir Jim makes of how ETH handles this, could be a 'game changer' for our Erik.
 
Rojofiam said:
Ederson has faced 51 shots in the PL so far this season, and has made 32 saves. Onana has had to make 72 saves, because he has faced 100 shots already.
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This can't be stressed enough. Onana definitely made mistakes and does look shaky at times, but he also gets so many opportunities to make a mistake because the defense in front of him is shit (which doesn't mean the defenders aren't good individually, the whole team setup is an issue.
 
Rojofiam said:
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Football Twitter is so incredibly dumb. This is highlights from a single game, where he saves a few shots that are straight at him, and does fairly well in playing out from the back. "This is who y'all hating on". Jesus wept.
 
Maticmaker said:
Onana may well be a top keeper, but he has one disaster in him every few games, seemingly from (not) stopping simple shots, not good.
Let's see what Sir Jim makes of how ETH handles this, could be a 'game changer' for our Erik.
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People forget that he came in as a replacement though, as any keeper bought to be number 1 would. Even if he had 7 years as Inter Milan’s number one that’s still many less than De Gea was ours. Yes Dave wasn’t as good as he once was, but what he once was was the best keeper in the world, and anyone who tries telling me he was shite last season is talking shite. He saved us so many times and was still a class shot stopper.

We should only have been replacing him with absolutely top quality - there’s nothing to suggest Onana is that. The fact is he had 1 season at Inter Milan and everything before that is irrelevant.
 
Rojofiam said:
It's not pointless. He was man of the match against the best team in the world in the most important match of their history (and they're possibly the greatest club side of all time) whose game heavily involves pressing their opponents in their own half, trying to win back possession as high up the pitch as possible. You noting that Onana still lost the game despite his great performance (What could he do about Inter's forwards not putting away a single chance?) clearly signals that you've chosen to go with a certain narrative, and nothing will change your mind, however:

Onana's most valuable qualities are being a great passer and his incredible press-resistance. If I recall correctly, even Pep said that trying to press Onana is useless because he's so good at resisting it.

These days, almost every successful side has a manager that heavily copies Pep's style of football and his principles. That means every one of these teams need a goalkeeper that has these qualities.

I'm not saying that Onana will ever become a world-class shot stopper, or someone like Alisson or Neuer, who at the peak of their powers were incredible at everything a keeper needs to do, but in a possession-based side, that's actually a well-oiled unit, Onana would have to make saves with a significantly less frequency. That's why Pep has had Ederson as his number one for 7 years. Not among the bests at shot-stopping, but a great passer, great with his feet, etc. the same strengths that Onana has, and Pep wouldn't have it any other way.

Ederson has faced 51 shots in the PL so far this season, and has made 32 saves. Onana has had to make 72 saves, because he has faced 100 shots already.

If Onana can make the howlers go away, and we progress as a team, not only will he not be a hindrance, he can be a great asset to the team.
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I agree with the last bit especially Ederson isnt all that as a pure GK and has made howlers against us in multiple games in the past, the reason he gets less scrutiny is because the control City have in games he very rarely has anything much to do especially against the lesser teams, United have 0 control of games against the lower end of the table teams let alone the teams at the top so Onana is open to more shots and better quality chances for the opposition than some of his peers.
 
Rather than concentrate on if he’s shite or not, can we think how we’d have to set up our team to get the best out of him. What do we need to change or who do we need to bring in to maximise his performances? Let’s not forget, he was getting rave reviews last year at Inter. What we’re they doing differently?
 
Mike Smalling said:
Football Twitter is so incredibly dumb. This is highlights from a single game, where he saves a few shots that are straight at him, and does fairly well in playing out from the back. "This is who y'all hating on". Jesus wept.
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That performance is way more than just doing "fairly well in playing out from the back".

Calling others dumb, simply because don't understand what he brings to the table and why it's so important.
 
Wrecking ralf said:
Rather than concentrate on if he’s shite or not, can we think how we’d have to set up our team to get the best out of him. What do we need to change or who do we need to bring in to maximise his performances? Let’s not forget, he was getting rave reviews last year at Inter. What we’re they doing differently?
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We need to be able to build out from the back and have more technical, and press-resistant players whilst also maintaining (and upgrading, tbh) physicality levels.

Right now, I'd say only Onana, Shaw, Martínez and Mainoo can do the job to the required level. The whole right side is lacking, especially AWB and Varane, I would say.

The off-ball movement and getting into optimal positions when Onana has the ball could also improve as well.
 
Rojofiam said:
That performance is way more than just doing "fairly well in playing out from the back".

Calling others dumb, simply because don't understand what he brings to the table and why it's so important.
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Outside of a few nice passes up through the middle, he's doing the bare minimum in that clip. And again, it's one game. Meanwhile we can make a compilation of his first 30 games here, where he has cost us around ten goals due to his individual errors, which has pretty much directly led us to being knocked out of European football. That doesn't go away by looking at a few decent passes from one game. Simply put, what he might have added in our build-up has not nearly compensated for what he has cost us as a shot-stopper.
 
You simply cannot have a keeper at the top level who isn't good at stopping shots. He single handedly cost us CL progression over 3 different games. Doesn't matter if you look like Messi with the ball at your feet if you can't be relied on 99% of the time when it comes to shot stopping.

I was of the opinion that he wouldn't be as good as DDG at saving shots but if he was good then the trade off for his passing was worth it. Unfortunately he has cost us far too many goals already this season. Not just from comically bad mistakes, but from poor positioning and decision making.
 
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