Ole when sacked vs Ten Hag currently

amolbhatia50k said:
What did Ole win in his four or whatever years here?
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My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.

And Ole had two full seasons here.
 
Sarni said:
I think your dislike for Ole is clouding your judgment here. He never spent 4 seasons here, he had two full seasons, he came in the middle of 18-19 and was then fired very early in 21-22.

He joined in the middle of 2018-19 season, we were already out of EFL Cup by that time so he couldn't have possibly won that.

The next two seasons were his only two full ones and I just listed all the teams he had been eliminated by above.

It's not even bad luck on Ole's side, you are usually expected to draw good teams at some point in pretty much any competition. ETH was just extremely lucky not to, and he's now being glorified by his devoted fan base for delivering that amazing trophy. It's silly.
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I think it's some sort of subconscious pushback given that members of the Ole fanclub here are prominently twisting the knife happily. The problem with Ole was the perception of a clown show, where the manager had no control and it was becoming a meme. I don't think we're under that perception now; we're just objectively bad.

It's a different situation, and I think most of us recognise we're currently just treading water and waiting as none of us know what's happening with the club. There are two possible scenarios:

1) The Glazers are going to sell, and this will obviously result in wholesale structural changes. In this instance, there's no point sacking him as the new owners will likely do it anyway, and you'd want to give the new structure a clean slate to implement their changes. We're bad, but not so rudderless we're steering into an iceberg.

2) The Glazers are going to stay with some sort of minority investment. In this instance, it's probably the correct time to sack him, although most of us fear nothing will change. Doing this would also likely tip the hand of investors etc that they are likely to stay and have unintended consequence.

Ultimately, the managers have been given too much control over signings all the way back to LVG. There's been no responsibility upwards and we've suffered for it with a really poor squad. It's no coincidence that as Gill prepared to leave and relinquished responsibility, Fergies signings were worse too. Gill spoke a few years ago at some business conference about just how involved he was in transfers. We're not going anywhere until everything is resolved, and I think a plurality of fans realise this, so there's less reason to pull the trigger and sack ETH. Certainly more do now than in Ole's days.
 
Rozay said:
Ole has been a better manager for us then Ten Hag full stop. Only thing that is preventing people from seeing that is the fact he’s former player, not a Dutch faux *********** and didn’t have high pedigree before joining. If he did have those things, there’s absolutely no way his time here would be looked at as inferior.
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Ole cemented the current issue that still plagues the club, that we have no interest in a meritocracy and are heavily influenced by external pressure. Much like a child might watch pundits like Rio saying we should sign a caretaker manager without any top flight experience after a smash and grab against PSG, the club then gets giddy and does exactly that, only to see an absolutely dreadful end to the season. What do we do? Internal review? Speak to other managers? No, we back the guy, then we do the same again and why? We play Mou's almost exact system with admittedly happier players and win nothing. Ole says we will outwork teams, we do not, we will add a press, the pressing stats were worse than under Mou who didn't even try to do that, he gives that interview about how he will be ruthless and some players won't make it and then never drops the worst performers. It was the lowest of the low points as a United fan for me because it was an old boys club at the club, an old boys club in the media and nothing, absolutely nothing, pioneering or forward thinking was happening. We were hard to beat, absolutely, and we could probaby play that way under most managers out there and as long as we spent £150m+ a year stay in the top 4.

At least with LVG it was trialing something different, with Mou he had pedigree and he did win some minor trophies, Ole was just nothing, a vacuum, we existed as a club for a few years and everyone knew, literally we all know on here, we were just treading water. ETH proved last season he can do that same boring, basic, direct style of football - we got 3rd and won a cup (no manager post SAF has finished top 4 and won a trophy), we also became a top pressing team.

Now we are trying something different, the long overdue move to a single sitting DM and fans like yourself can't understand this is the only way to get closer to the better teams. There is no elite team that plays how Mou and Ole's teams played, not a single one.

The single thing Ole has is he finished 3rd and 2nd, that's literally it. ETH already bettered his first full season. Will he get second this season, I highly highly doubt it but surely the more preferable thing is to advance the team so we can actually try and get 1st at some point? It's tragic the short sightedness on here. ETH is not without some of these faults, he needs to bench some of the big names, he might fail, he might get sacked but as long as the next manager actually tries to progress us as a team that is all we can ask. If you don't have new ideas and don't have a track record, why would you be manager of United?

The worst thing about Ole though, even ignoring the above, is what did he actually do? Carrick and McKenna lead all training and Ole said in multiple interviews he believed in being a hands off coach like latter years SAF. Think about that for a moment, you hire an unexperienced and, frankly, underqualified manager, you allow him to take up a role that SAF earned through evolving as a coach and winning a shit load and then just let him keep doing what exactly? Pick the team, do some team talks, keep players happy? It was a disgrace.
 
Rozay said:
My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.

And Ole had two full seasons here.
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We won a trophy which Ole couldn’t. The same Ole who also had a third season which wasn’t ‘full’ because he wasn’t good enough and led to us crossing 4 years without a trophy. Something ETH corrected pretty quickly.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Expectations of the reality of United’s status in the game also seem a bit skewed when I see posts like this.

We finished 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 2nd, 6th, 5th, 4th, 7th since we won the league. We have not got to the business end of the CL in over a decade, we often aren't even in it. Bayern have to win their league, it's a piss take if they don't, Real or Barca have won the last 16 of 18 La Ligas. We have been nowhere near winning ours. Readjust your expectation, either you let ETH (or any other manager) build something with the handicaps that exists in the owners and transfer team, or just shout about how standards have fallen, sack managers after every bad run and prepare for nothing to change.
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Don't assume to know where i think we stand in the game after a decade of dross. If we aspired to be more like the other giants of the game and we would get proper people to handle the football aspects of our club we would be doing much better. If we did what those clubs do Old Trafford would look great right now.

Maybe waiting until results are very bad is worse for the morale of the squad, waiting until there is nothing to play for. What will change next summer for Erik when we wait. Will he have successfully implemented his philosophy that's seems to be a failure so far. Will transfers be better? Will he play better against decent opposition? will he learn to get himself a draw when in a bad situation? It's also up to him to show what the team could do when his philosophy and plans are executed right. Other than pressing what do we do better under Erik.

It's not all his fault clowns like Murtough/fletcher should be gone too. But the minimum we can expect on the field is a defined style and improvements with our ability on the ball something which has been a problem for a long time. On the ball we are no different to when Ole was with us. We press better but are horrible on the ball. We are tired of this, no United fans like this. We all hope he does well.
 
Rozay said:
My apologies, we Ten Hag did win us a relatively insignificant cup by dispatching of a few no marks.

And Ole had two full seasons here.
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You do know what the narrative would have been if Ole won the same trophy in the same manner beating the same teams.

Everyone would just call it meaningless. Because it basically is. United fans in 2023 bragging about beating Charlton, Nottingham and Burnley is a sign of times.

When ETH had to actually face elimination games against quality teams, he was embarrassed by Sevilla and didn't really lay a punch at City in the FA Cup final (thankfully they were preserving energy for CL final).
 
flappyjay said:
Don't assume to know where i think we stand in the game after a decade of dross. If we aspired to be more like the other giants of the game and we would get proper people to handle the football aspects of our club we would be doing much better. If we did what those clubs do Old Trafford would look great right now.

Maybe waiting until results are very bad is worse for the morale of the squad, waiting until there is nothing to play for. What will change next summer for Erik when we wait. Will he have successfully implemented his philosophy that's seems to be a failure so far. Will transfers be better? Will he play better against decent opposition? will he learn to get himself a draw when in a bad situation? It's also up to him to show what the team could do when his philosophy and plans are executed right. Other than pressing what do we do better under Erik.

It's not all his fault clowns like Murtough/fletcher should be gone too. But the minimum we can expect on the field is a defined style and improvements with our ability on the ball something which has been a problem for a long time. On the ball we are no different to when Ole was with us. We press better but are horrible on the ball. We are tired of this, no United fans like this. We all hope he does well.
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I can only base my response off what you wrote and you compared us to Bayern, Barca and Real.

If results don't pick up, they will hardly hire a new manager before the City game, they'll try and time it again like they always do. I don't think we're there yet though, there's a lot of bad luck you have to factor in this season.

The last paragraph is where my disappointment has mostly been. I thought we would 'look' better and despite a smattering of periods here and there where there were signs of very different football (Bayern away until the goal being the best example) we are just reverting back to direct crap football again. There's a lot of blame to go around, ETH takes some but then many of our players need to as well, as do club management.

LVG is the only coach where we really saw something completely different (regardless of how it went), you could look at us and think - that is an LVG team - and the only way he was able to do that was with a massive clear out of dross players and, he was also lucky in a way, as many of our old great players were leaving or about to leave when he came in. Maybe that's what we need now, a reset, to have a team with no 'big' names and less egos and maybe it takes a real disaster of a season to get there.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
You're forgetting almost the entirety of 2019. There was a period after the PSG win where our record was 14 wins, 11 draws and 13 losses. Thats a 38 game period where we essentially picked up 53 points in all comps. Our fans have the worst memories. It didn't improve much either, as in the next 10 games, we won 4 and lost 5. That's almost an entire year:

Played 48, won 18, drawn 12, lost 18. That's abysmal.
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I'm not saying he was good for us. He was decent in bursts, did well in cup competitions and mostly in big games, got us to consecutive top 4 finishes. The time for him to go would have been after Villarreal game, and he would have been remembered more fondly if that had happened.

I'd be over the moon with 53 points this season btw. I think we will be below 50.
 
Sarni said:
I'm not saying he was good for us. He was decent in bursts, did well in cup competitions and mostly in big games, got us to consecutive top 4 finishes. The time for him to go would have been after Villarreal game, and he would have been remembered more fondly if that had happened.

I'd be over the moon with 53 points this season btw. I think we will be below 50.
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He was crap. I'll be honest, I've no attachment to ETH. I knew very little about him before he joined us and, whilst I'd rather we not sack just yet, i wouldn't cry if we did. However, the revisionism/hypocrisy that finds it way onto this forum is ridiculous.

Ole was an awful manager. ETH being bad doesn't change that. Liverpool may have spanked us 7-0 earlier this year but they felt pity on us when 5-0 up in our backyard. That's pure embarrassment. A Mourinho led Spurs scored 6 at OT and that was also during our "best" season under Ole.

Let's just be honest with ourselves. Unless ETH improves vastly, he'll just be every bit as bad as the others. We've not appointed a single good manager since SAF retired and the evidence is in the pudding.
 
VP89 said:
The only ones who are acting like the season is lost are the ones wanting him sacked.
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Season isn't lost and this is actually a solid reason to sack him and bring another coach trying to salvage the season. He's not turning this around and even if the miracle happens and he manages to hit a winning run, what will the end result be? 5th or 4th at best with Ten Hag cultists acting like the biggest achievement ever.
 
Luffy said:
The reign of a talentless and weak manager such as Ole permitted the players to consolidate their importance on and off the pitch. And since then no manager has managed to wrest control from the players. The next truly great coach to get the managerial seat would have to be someone who destroys this shortsighted mentality from the players. What I do not know is whether new players are and will keep being blooded and inculcated into this player mentality. Good luck to whoever gets the gig after ETH.
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Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.

But in England the pace of change required for a title run is insane, it catches every manager out and the hiccups along the road to the top are harshly criticised by the media fanbase.

The point is great managers need time to adapt and get their shit tight for this club.
 
Rampant Red Rodriguez said:
Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.

But in England the pace of change required for a title run is insane, it catches every manager out and the hiccups along the road to the top are harshly criticised by the media fanbase.

The point is great managers need time to adapt and get their shit tight for this club.
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I dont think ETH is a great manager, a good one maybe. At Ajax he had some great players. Great managers dont just sign players they know, they look for the best out there. I said at the start of the season and say it again. His bias for players from the Dutch league is why he will get sacked, and probably deserve it.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
I think you're a fairly balanced poster but I reckon our recent shitness has gotten to you.
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Nope, you have a different view to me, which is fine.

Ole was a better manager for our team, and it’s not the controversial or sensationalist take you are implying it to be given both managers have recorded similar league finishes.

Firstly, Ole had us scoring goals. Ten Hag has failed to do that. We went into games against big teams and gave them a proper game. We beat most of them. Ten Hag has failed to do this too.
 
el3mel said:
Season isn't lost and this is actually a solid reason to sack him and bring another coach trying to salvage the season. He's not turning this around and even if the miracle happens and he manages to hit a winning run, what will the end result be? 5th or 4th at best with Ten Hag cultists acting like the biggest achievement ever.
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Sacking him at this moment. would be incredibly and utterly dumb.

Of course he can turn it around. Be patient.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
We won a trophy which Ole couldn’t. The same Ole who also had a third season which wasn’t ‘full’ because he wasn’t good enough and led to us crossing 4 years without a trophy. Something ETH corrected pretty quickly.
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If Ole didn’t complete his third season because he wasn’t good enough then Ten Hag should be fired tomorrow, given we are barely out of September and lost what, 6 games already.

We’ve sacked managers who won trophies before (one just a few hours after winning one). That doesn’t tell the story.
 
Rozay said:
If Ole didn’t complete his third season because he wasn’t good enough then Ten Hag should be fired tomorrow, given we are barely out of September and lost what, 6 games already.

We’ve sacked managers who won trophies before (one just a few hours after winning one). That doesn’t tell the story.
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You dont sack a manager after 10 games off the back of what should be considered over achievement in finishing 8pts clear of 4th and winning a cup.

I know you'd love to, but that's not how it works. Like it or lump it, hel be given time he's rightfully earned to turn it around.

I know that winds up a lot of fans who'd rather see us lose than see ten hag in charge. I would be lying if I didnt say I love that.
 
Rampant Red Rodriguez said:
Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.
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Dominating a league miles below a quality of any top5 leagues in Europe shouldn’t get you such an ambitious job at United. He got it for that freak run in Champions League, which while impressive, still ended up with a bottle against Spurs.

he was never qualified for the job considering we gave him full power and full authority over transfers
 
Rozay said:
Nope, you have a different view to me, which is fine.

Ole was a better manager for our team, and it’s not the controversial or sensationalist take you are implying it to be given both managers have recorded similar league finishes.

Firstly, Ole had us scoring goals. Ten Hag has failed to do that. We went into games against big teams and gave them a proper game. We beat most of them. Ten Hag has failed to do this too.
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We won 3 times at Etihad in 2 years and the pitchforks were out because the fans didn't like the playing style in those games. But conceding 6 at Etihad and 7 at Anfield, that's for some reason totally acceptable for this fanbase. Never mind those grounds, even Emirates, WHL, SJP, London Stadium and Amex are automatic losses nowadays. But hey, at least we're playing "the right way" now.
 
ETH should have gone to another EPL team before coming here, I question the training sessions he does if we capitulate so easily to Every team we score against.
 
Rampant Red Rodriguez said:
Ten Hag was the best thing since sliced bread at Ajax because he made his own team to dominate that league.

But in England the pace of change required for a title run is insane, it catches every manager out and the hiccups along the road to the top are harshly criticised by the media fanbase.

The point is great managers need time to adapt and get their shit tight for this club.
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Okay cool.
 
Ole would rightfully be mocked if he'd sold two young CB's in the summer and brought in Jonny Evans.

He'd also be mocked if he'd brought in an injury prone left back on loan as emergency cover while sending our only other fit LB option out on loan.
 
Born2Lose said:
Ole would rightfully be mocked if he'd sold two young CB;s in the summer and brought in Jonny Evans.

He'd also be mocked if he'd brought in an injury prone left back on loan as emergency cover while sending our only other option on loan.
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Who were the CB’s that were sold? Genuinely don’t remember.
 
el3mel said:
Turn it around to achieve what exactly ?
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Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.

For all the shit show were in, we aren't far off in terms of absolute points given the remainder of games left. And the CL group is far far from gone so get a grip.
 
VP89 said:
Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.

For all the shit show were in, we aren't far off in terms of absolute points given the remainder of games left. And the CL group is far far from gone so get a grip.
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Ten Hag hasn't showed a single sign he's good enough to challenge for the league or CL. If anything this season is proving his ceiling is a top 4 or a domestic cup only if he gets a lucky draw.

Thinking he's gonna be United's savior and turn us into a title challengers is just some sort of delusion at this point.
 
VP89 said:
Challenge for silverware and maintain a CL role.

For all the shit show were in, we aren't far off in terms of absolute points given the remainder of games left. And the CL group is far far from gone so get a grip.
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I reckon our EFL Cup run will end in a few weeks if Newcastle approach that game seriously, our hope is they will just field their B team. We haven't had the same luck in draw this time.

CL is pointless, if we by some miracle make it through the groups (I doubt it) any half decent team will just toy with us in the knockouts.
 
GMoore23 said:
Greenwood was arrested on the 15/10/21.
The total capitulation began the following day vs Leicester.

Ronaldo's antics didn't help either.

Ole deserved more time. He had good coaches behind him in McKenna and Carrick. His main issue was not being ruthless enough.
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I thought Greenwood happened later, under Rangnick, but I may well be wrong.

It would be very interesting to see, in an alternate universe, how Solskjaer would have done he he been given the rest of the season. But that series of results that someone posted earlier that led to his sacking were pretty damn bad. And I know this is completely subjective but I remember seeing Ole in some post match interviews and the guy just looked shellshocked, completely overwhelmed by how big the job was (I’m aware I’m speculating). So at the least, I can understand why he went.
 
el3mel said:
Ten Hag hasn't showed a single sign he's good enough to challenge for the league or CL. If anything this season is proving his ceiling is a top 4 or a domestic cup only if he gets a lucky draw.

Thinking he's gonna be United's savior and turn us into a title challengers is just some sort of delusion at this point.
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You must have been zoned out last season mate.

Also if you think a manager should show chops of challenging for this city side within one season with OUR squad (recall the big leavers after Ole) then your expectations are the problem, not the manager.
 
GMoore23 said:
Greenwood was arrested on the 15/10/21.
The total capitulation began the following day vs Leicester.

Ronaldo's antics didn't help either.

Ole deserved more time. He had good coaches behind him in McKenna and Carrick. His main issue was not being ruthless enough.
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I think your timeline is off. All that Greenwood stuff only came out in January 2022 when Ole was already long gone and Rangnick had been in charge for a couple of months.

And didn't the 'Ronaldo antics' mostly happen under Rangnick/ETH too?
 
VP89 said:
You must have been zoned out last season mate.

Also if you think a manager should show chops of challenging for this city side within one season with OUR squad (recall the big leavers after Ole) then your expectations are the problem, not the manager.
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Last season we got top 4 and won the least important trophy in England, so ?

It's hilarious how people are treating last season as some sort of unprecedented success of the post Fergie era. We got top 4 and won League cup. Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ole all finished top 4. Mourinho got 2nd spot and Ole got 3rd and 2nd two season in a row, for God's sake. LVG won an Fa Cup which is far more prestigious than the glorious League Cup Ten Hag won and Mourinho won that same League Cup plus a Europe League trophy. Ole reached a Europe League final which Ten Hag failed to do, and lost on pens, while having a shit luck in other cup competitions draws unlike Ten Hag whose only top 4 team he faced in both his domestic cup runs last season came in the finals.

LVG, Mourinho and Ole were deemed a miserable failure at United. Ten Hag at the same time, achieved nothing more than them and yet considered good enough to be United' savior.

Ten Hag has done feck all more than our previous managers whom all got sacked and he's going to end the same way as them. People treating last season as some sort of a sign we're a title challengers in the making need to look at the whole 10 years and not just half a year under Ralf.

With 2nd season and 400m spent, United should have been closer to the top teams now than close to the bottom half starting season with 6 losses out of 10 games and with their hopes reduced to try and finish top 4 at best. Top 4 isn't gonna be a success or an achievement this season. It's the bare minimum for every manager not named "Erik Ten Hag".
 
NicolaSacco said:
I thought Greenwood happened later, under Rangnick, but I may well be wrong.

It would be very interesting to see, in an alternate universe, how Solskjaer would have done he he been given the rest of the season. But that series of results that someone posted earlier that led to his sacking were pretty damn bad. And I know this is completely subjective but I remember seeing Ole in some post match interviews and the guy just looked shellshocked, completely overwhelmed by how big the job was (I’m aware I’m speculating). So at the least, I can understand why he went.
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Rnd898 said:
I think your timeline is off. All that Greenwood stuff only came out in January 2022 when Ole was already long gone and Rangnick had been in charge for a couple of months.

And didn't the 'Ronaldo antics' mostly happen under Rangnick/ETH too?
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Yep, my bad. It was January.

He was arrested again on 15/10/22 not initially on 15/10/21

I still think Ronaldo caused huge problems though.
 
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