Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?

RedRonaldo said:
This is actually funny to watch, even Pogba wouldn't overdo something like that at the back. Instead of keeping it simple, he just keep thinking and thinking and keeping and running around slowly with ball, before giving it away cheaply.
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Maguire actually gives the ball away cheaply more often than people think. He tends to overthink and hold onto the ball too long before he's got closed down and put himself in trouble. He just "looks" composed as if nothing's happened and people somehow think he's fantastic on the ball.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This is essentially the meaning of it.

For those who don't understand what people mean when they say this, just watch a previous Utd match and try and count the number of touches each player takes before they release the ball. Count how long it takes them to make what decisions. Ask whether the movements look robotic or more spontaneous. For instance Maguire, see how long it takes him to release the ball each time.

When players wouldn't move or make runs under Mourinho, the question was 'what are we doing on the training ground?' Now it's not as bad, but the decision making and movement of the players still seems too individualistic and sometimes even counterproductive.

Right now seems like the lack of a strict system IS the overarching system. So while some see a general framework and can identify a system, others see slow decision making and inefficient, individualistic movements within that framework and wonder about the existence of a system.
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One of the few sensible posts I see in this thread. People seem to confuse the definition of "no system" and they start arguing about different things.
 
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tomaldinho1 said:
There is obviously a system because it's not kids football where the coach just says 'go out there and have fun' but t's probably fair to say we have one of the least tactically strict systems in the PL. This isn't necessarily positive or negative but when I think of certain teams: Wolves, City, Liverpool, Southampton, Norwich, Spurs (now with Mou), Palace I know exactly how they're going to try to play - they will invariably enforce their style of play onto a game because that's what they feel gives them the best chance of getting a result. With us I know what we will try to do but it's still pretty 50/50 if we'll be able to impose our tactics on a team or if they'll be able to disrupt us.

Sometimes I wonder if the idiotic managerial appointments we made (Moyes>LVG>Mou>caretaker Ole>Ole) are still affecting how we think about tactics and positioning because LVG was at the extreme end and Mou is also obviously very into his team shape and defensive setup. It's like we tried that, didn't like and so let Ole just set up the team in a way he likes and then put all emphasis onto high intensity football with almost every available pass being direct and forwards when possible, an antidote if you will to the years of shite served up by LVG & Mou. We don't need someone like Allegri but I do think we need someone (and this can be Ole, I'm not saying he needs to go) to provide more structure. I have made this point before but our best teams in SAFs latter years were so good because of Queiroz and SAF's acknowledgement of the team's weakness when it came to the positional and tactical side of the game - we've never really replaced him (also Meulsteen to a point here) who have that deep positional coaching knowledge and whilst I like Carrick/Phelan/McKenna none of them have that background and, in my opinion, it shows.
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It has been a issue for MUFC since the final few years of Ferguson's reign. Towards the end of his tenure at Man Utd, you can tell Utd is getting left behind on a tactical level in Europe despite the team winning the PL. MUFC was a team that was not pleasant to watch for the neutral fans after Ronaldo left, with the team relying more on individual brilliance to score late goals or goals against the run of play. You guys win games, but you do not dominate teams while winning games. ( the 8-2 win over Arsenal aside).

Your midfield has been utterly boring and lacking in creativity and technique for years, your attack relies heavily on wingers that can't really cross well, and your forward lines tends to lack any movement and dynamism for years as well. That is true with very succeeding problems since Ferguson left. The fact that you guys are still talking about midfield problems more for more than a decade is a sign of that your underlying problems have not been fixed. You guys lacked an attacking coach that can actually coach players into making intelligent and team oriented attacking play for years. You either hired a coach that don't really know how to set up an attack (Moyes), a coach that knows how to set up an attack in an earlier era ( Van Gaal), or you hire coaches that relies on players to figure it out for themselves ( Mourinho/Ole).

As a result, I find that the Man Utd fans ended up having a very conservative or traditional outlook regarding football tactics. A fair number of fans seem to be hoping for a return to the good old days of 07-09 football tactics, and any coach that might challenge that outlook is looked down upon by some fans.

I think what is the best way to see if the coach is working well for your team is to look at how fans from other clubs are judging your manager. If rival fans are feeling threatened by your manager, you've done well in keeping the manager. If the rival fans are hoping your manager stays around for a few more years, it's time to relook at who you are going to hire as manager.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This is essentially the meaning of it.

For those who don't understand what people mean when they say this, just watch a previous Utd match and try and count the number of touches each player takes before they release the ball. Count how long it takes them to make what decisions. Ask whether the movements look robotic or more spontaneous. For instance Maguire, see how long it takes him to release the ball each time.

When players wouldn't move or make runs under Mourinho, the question was 'what are we doing on the training ground?' Now it's not as bad, but the decision making and movement of the players still seems too individualistic and sometimes even counterproductive.

Right now seems like the lack of a strict system IS the overarching system. So while some see a general framework and can identify a system, others see slow decision making and inefficient, individualistic movements within that framework and wonder about the existence of a system.
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Individualistic is absolutely the correct definition.
Whatever system they may or may not be coached to play, it certainly is not obvious.

And yes. We are far too hesitant in our build up. And that is precisely why we struggle to break teams down.

Even Chelsea, who we are on par with, are significantly better at one touch football.
We just don't don't play as a team.
Rather, a group of individuals.
 
He'sRaldo said:
This is essentially the meaning of it.

For those who don't understand what people mean when they say this, just watch a previous Utd match and try and count the number of touches each player takes before they release the ball. Count how long it takes them to make what decisions. Ask whether the movements look robotic or more spontaneous. For instance Maguire, see how long it takes him to release the ball each time.

When players wouldn't move or make runs under Mourinho, the question was 'what are we doing on the training ground?' Now it's not as bad, but the decision making and movement of the players still seems too individualistic and sometimes even counterproductive.

Right now seems like the lack of a strict system IS the overarching system. So while some see a general framework and can identify a system, others see slow decision making and inefficient, individualistic movements within that framework and wonder about the existence of a system.
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Good post.
 
Ole is, for me anyway, building to a particular plan, pursuing a method of playing that is flexible and capable of modification, with his transfers so far having been more successful than some of his predecessors. However as he plugs one hole, or covers one area of weakness, another pops up, or the pressure shifts and we still need about four players to really reach the basic standard Ole is pursuing.

I agree with Scholes we need a more physical CB alongside Maguire. Our full backs are all capable of defending, but we don't have much going forward and such as Williams, AWB and indeed Shaw all look exposed when asked to play in a wing-back role. Matic is our only out and out DM and despite his renaissance this season, he still seems to get left out by Ole in key games, suggesting the manager is making do with him and not fully committed, plus Matic's career is obviously coming to an end. Martial has shown more promise as an out and out CF and Ole has kept faith with him; Greenwood is improving, but also some aspects of his game are becoming predictable, he needs to develop some new moves, but he is star quality no doubt. Rashford for me can still excite with bursts of speed but his finishing and final ball decision-making appears to be going backwards, but again Ole is keeping faith with him. The problem now is there is no real pressure on any of the front three for places.

The relationship between Bruno and Pogba will be crucial and how and where they are asked to play, these two need to be playing in the final third more often, supporting the front three and occasionally going past then into the box. We can then be 'deadly' as a strike force.

We are however improving over all, obtaining third in the PL from where we were is testimony to that, but our inability to get past the semi's in knockout competitions signals we still have a way to go, to be a real threat.

Ole may at times not seem to have a plan/way of playing, but there can be many reasons for that, we need to keep faith with him, for at least another two seasons.
 
He is not at all flexible and that is also a huge problem. Being flexible means switching the formation and the tactics. He is not capable of doing it or refuses to do so.
 
The Boy said:
I've read this from quite a few posters here ... people say they cannot see any system and everything comes down to individual brilliance, basically there’s no tactics coached.

But I think there clearly is, the difficulty is that because of injuries to key players, Ole has had to adapt his ideas throughout the season, though I would suggest that this shows even more tactical nous from him.

At the beginning of the season Ole wanted to build around Pogba in the 4-2-3-1 formation that he used in Norway and obviously favours. The team would press high and play with a high defence stealing the ball back early and playing quick forward passes from between the lines onto runners like Martial, James, Lingard and Rashford. The key to this was the other midfielder (McT, Matic or Fred) dropping back in between the CBs allowing the FBs to push forward either into midfield to protect against a counter or into attack to become another option for the pass forward, so effectively 4-2-3-1 would switch to 3-2-5 in attack. Pogba was key to this as he was the creative force meant to be spraying the ball about the pitch, but Pogba got injured and there was no one else in the squad to fill that role.

So he had to adapt to working with a much more utilitarian midfield. Liverpool do this by using their full backs as the creative force, but AWB wasn’t bought for this and though Shaw is capable it’s not his strongest suit either. But Ole didn’t have a huge amount of choice as the need for creativity moved out of central midfield and onto the wings, more often than not the left side with Shaw and Rashford. It still involved midfielders dropping into defence, but this now it meant a holding midfielder (often Fred) dropping into cover either LB or RB depending on who was pushing forward. With Martial, Shaw and Rashford all out at different times as well this became increasingly difficult. We all know how that worked out. Though he certainly had some successes, Tottenham and City stand out, but so do Newcastle and Norwich.

Finally with the purchase of Bruno, Ole got what he’d been missing with Pogba out, a playmaker to operate between the lines. So once again he could switch the creativity back to midfield, push Rashford and James/Greenwood out wide with Martial running through the centre. The other midfielder could drop back to create a back 3 and the wingbacks could either tuck in to protect midfield or push up to support the attack. Yes Bruno played in a more advanced position than Ole had planned for Pogba, but the idea pretty much remained the same with the idea of 4-2-3-1 switching to 3-2-5 in attack again.

These ideas aren't completely original, Ole has borrowed a bit from Klopp and Pep (who obviously play quite differently anyway) as well as others. He’s been forced to adapt throughout the season and you could argue that his tactics didn’t really finally click until that fecking Brighton game when you hammered us after lockdown (it was that game that got me thinking and reading about this)

He has also made mistakes as he and his coaches are quite inexperienced at this level, though I don’t mean he can not succeed and clearly the players don't think that either as they seem totally bought into his ideas. So to say there is no system is wrong in my mind, there has been at least three clear systems throughout the season (that's not counting the odd time he's started with 3 at the back or 4-4-2, which is another post all by itself!) as he’s adapted to the players available. Now whether you think the tactics are good enough or not is another discussion enitirely!

Interesting analysis written by cleverer people than me here.

Ole having to adapt - https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...t-ole-gunnar-solskjaer-learned-from-liverpool

Bruno makes the difference - https://totalfootballanalysis.com/p...-manchester-united-sporting-tactical-analysis

Ole’s tactics finally click against Brighton https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...s-shades-of-guardiola-as-ole-ball-takes-shape

4-2-3-1 converting to 3-2-5 in attack https://www.sports-nova.com/2020/06...unnar-solskjaer-rejuvenate-manchester-united/

tl:dr – Ole actually does have a clear system, but it has changed through the season to adapt to injuries. Saying there is no system is wrong!
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Top post.
 
I do not think they are any clever. Obviously he has a system but that system is not working. He went and bought Maguire who is as slow as Inzammam Al Haq. He simply cannot play a high defence and press when he has such slow CBs. This high press is a fashion. You have to design the way to the players a manager has. He cannot change the way we way when it is not working. He plays three forwards always and cannot adapt to have 4 midfield players sometimes.
In my opinion he needs better coaches at United who can change the way we play to the situation. Look at our corners. When was the last time we scored from a corner? When was the last time, there was a near post flick? It is mind boggling for a coach at a top club to be either so ignorant of refuses to look at the importance of the near post flick and variations on the corner.
 
jeepers said:
Maguire panicked when Bergwin ran past him like he wasn’t even there, the most recent one I can remember was against LASK I believe where we were defending a corner and he didn’t know where the ball was, and tried to pull the LASK player who headed onto the crossbar.

Still maintain we should’ve kept Blind. He would be perfect to take over from Matic, as well as having him as an option on set pieces, which we are still shite at.

He could cover at CB/LB, mainly playing DLP.

Some poster above suggested to try Tuanzebe out at DM. I think we could try Lindelof there instead if Bailly can stay fit. If not sell Lindelof because there is no way we will sell Maguire since we spunked all that monies on him.
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Maguire didn't panic when Bergwin ran past him because he didn't even see him run past him haha . He was gone before Harry had a Scooby Doo .
 
Web of Bissaka said:
There is a clear system.

What people actually meant by "no system" is really no shape/structure. It's a mess therefore not "systematic".

Our system is not organized and it rely + trusts too much on the players to think for themselves on the pitch. Plenty of other top teams also have similar system I suppose eg. Bayern to a large extent is also individual based but it works because they have many players with football intelligence and maturity which are essential in this kind of individuals-based system. It's haphazard but those players will make the system organized and systematic as does maintaining the unpredicatbility and freedom of such systems.

We lacks such players. I can say with confidence only Bruno, Martial, McTominay, Matic, Shaw and Lindelof are the players with football intelligence who can make this system works, but of course there's the question of qualities and forms. Would like to see Ole play them all at least in one game.
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Smores said:
I'd disagree slightly on your terms, all we have is a shape/structure. The issue is the tactical implementation not in setup but in how the players fulfil their roles and combine.

Case in point Bruno was shunted up high but there was clearly no system in place as to how he was best utilised there. Incidentally plenty pointed this out only for the Ole indoctrinated to get upset and insist it was right. Surprise surprise he changed it for Seville, which is great that he assessed and corrected. However, game by game corrections show a lack of a system in the first place.

I'm not worried about our attackers, Bruno will end up telling them what to do. The midfield and fullbacks however don't have a clue what to do half the time.
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Mark Pawelek said:
That's a strategy not a system. Strategy for the long-term. System is for the 90 minutes. I'm happy with the strategy part. I think United lacked systems under LVG too when we couldn't even create chances against teams who sat deep. Also: United's system under Mourinho was rubbish: buy giants and out-muscle opps. There's a synonym for "Ole has no system" = "we just lost another match and I'm fuming".
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Garethw said:
A good coach needs to be adaptive to a given situation. With Ole we only have a singular way of playing. If it doesn’t work then we are usually stuffed.
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He'sRaldo said:
Every manager will have a set of ideas or a 'system', but the degree to which they can understand and implement their ideas separates the best from the rest. An idea isn't good in and of itself, it's implementation needs to be considered as well.

At the end of the day, proof will be in the pudding next season. Will Ole have an overachieving system like most top managers have? If our trust in Ole's system is that great, then why not set the bar high.
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He'sRaldo said:
This is essentially the meaning of it.

For those who don't understand what people mean when they say this, just watch a previous Utd match and try and count the number of touches each player takes before they release the ball. Count how long it takes them to make what decisions. Ask whether the movements look robotic or more spontaneous. For instance Maguire, see how long it takes him to release the ball each time.

When players wouldn't move or make runs under Mourinho, the question was 'what are we doing on the training ground?' Now it's not as bad, but the decision making and movement of the players still seems too individualistic and sometimes even counterproductive.

Right now seems like the lack of a strict system IS the overarching system. So while some see a general framework and can identify a system, others see slow decision making and inefficient, individualistic movements within that framework and wonder about the existence of a system.
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Above posts is IMO very educational and insightful about our problem.

These posters, among many other good posts, has put words on why many of us sometimes get’s frustrated and starts to criticize our matches, our management and/or individual players. In order to avoid misunderstandings let’s make it clear that this debate, at least for me, isn’t about putting blame on Ole or individual players, it’s more about what should we as a club do in order to become better.
 
Rasendori said:
Hello Goku,

Click the inbox icon located next to your username. You should have an e-mail from Niall. Should be top right of the website. I would've sent you a PM, but I've gathered that you're unable to locate it.

Click ME

As far as I know, any of the staff can give you a like.
A link to the staff members
How to be liked (Let me know if this links works. I didn't read it as a newbie, and as a full member the link isn't valid for me)
How do I earn likes/get promoted? (and other obvious questions) (Let me know if this links works. I didn't read it when I joined, and as a full member the link doesn't work )

If you continue to have issues be sure to get in touch with @Niall @Damien @Sultan or the link to staff members I posted above

Kind Regards,
Rasendori
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Thanks man! Much appreciated its been a pain for a while now will have a look in my inbox now cheers :)
 
Nah I don’t need better glasses. I can not see a proper functioning system and his football has been dire for awhile. Ole relies on counter attack and penalties. When you look at managers who coaches fluid attacking football with much less, you have to ask, what are we doing in training? As good as Greenwood and AWB are, we should be playing much better football with what we have.
 
Amadaeus said:
Nah I don’t need better glasses. I can not see a proper functioning system and his football has been dire for awhile. Ole relies on counter attack and penalties. When you look at managers who coaches fluid attacking football with much less, you have to ask, what are we doing in training?
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Could not agree more. Regardless of who we bring in, it's going to be another wasted season with Ole as the manager.
 
Not sure if we can really blame the system when we have players like James, McTominay and TFM in our starting line up. Nowhere near the quality we need.
 
He's had the summer to plan for this game and the best he can come up with is a Mensah and James partnership on the right wing, very questionable.
 
sugar_kane said:
Not sure if we can really blame the system when we have players like James, McTominay and TFM in our starting line up. Nowhere near the quality we need.
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Bielsa managed to coach a mid table championship team to attack like Barcelona in the Premier League.
 
sugar_kane said:
Not sure if we can really blame the system when we have players like James, McTominay and TFM in our starting line up. Nowhere near the quality we need.
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Even with our strongest team we've never played that well. Penalties and individual brilliance are what we're all about. No cohesion in our play whatsoever. Whether it's in possession or pressing as a team.
 
Amadaeus said:
Nah I don’t need better glasses. I can not see a proper functioning system and his football has been dire for awhile. Ole relies on counter attack and penalties. When you look at managers who coaches fluid attacking football with much less, you have to ask, what are we doing in training? As good as Greenwood and AWB are, we should be playing much better football with what we have.
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You said in another thread that this United squad should get 100 points and challenge for the title ie. One of the greatest teams in history though so I don't think anyone is on your page
 
ray24 said:
Bielsa managed to coach a mid table championship team to attack like Barcelona in the Premier League.
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They’ve played two games and already conceded seven goals...and that’s before they burn out. Not sure that’s the best example.
 
Every single rival club wants to keep Ole in the job. What does that tell you? He's a lucky boy that all the heat is on Woodward and the Glazers.
 
sugar_kane said:
They’ve played two games and already conceded seven goals...and that’s before they burn out. Not sure that’s the best example.
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He’s talking about the attack they have assembled and the fact they have scored 7 goals with championship players. They don’t have Martial, Greenwood, Rashford, Fernandes and Pogba ffs.
 
45 minutes into the season and the knee jerking already started.
 
ray24 said:
Bielsa managed to coach a mid table championship team to attack like Barcelona in the Premier League.
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This seems like a massive exaggeration but it must be said that they do have an identifiable style of play. They seem to not be able to lock it down as of yet but when it comes to attack, its pretty impressive and i would say none of those players (maybe phillips) are better than the united team today.
 
Its like blasphemy to call out on Ole's lack of tactics in here..
 
Yagami said:
It's not knee jerking when many of us have held this opinion for a long, long time.
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We all know how it works...wait for a bad 45 minutes to tell everyone you were right.
I ve been lurking over here for years and can recognize some one like you from miles away :)
 
Yagami said:
It's not knee jerking when many of us have held this opinion for a long, long time.
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Don’t worry about it mate. You know you’re talking sense when you can hand on heart say you’d say the same thing if it was the manager of any other club. Or somebody else in charge of United.

Whereas there is so much blind faith and nepotism on here that you know those people would be singing from a different hymn sheet if it wasn’t Ole and United. That is when you know it isn’t a fair and unbiased view.

Same as if it was Gerrard instead of Maguire with the Greece debacle. The opinions would be drastically altered.
 
dev1l said:
45 minutes into the season and the knee jerking already started.
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You can’t really say it’s knee jerking when it’s been 21 months into Ole’s tenure can you? It’s obvious that he doesn’t have a clear playing style/system like all the top managers/coaches have.
 
Amadaeus said:
Nah I don’t need better glasses. I can not see a proper functioning system and his football has been dire for awhile. Ole relies on counter attack and penalties. When you look at managers who coaches fluid attacking football with much less, you have to ask, what are we doing in training? As good as Greenwood and AWB are, we should be playing much better football with what we have.
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Who would you get in instead?
 
ray24 said:
Bielsa managed to coach a mid table championship team to attack like Barcelona in the Premier League.
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:lol: Barcelona has always played boring tippy-tappy football. Bielsa's Leeds is nothing like that, his football is actually fast-paced and good to watch
 
Vidyoyo said:
Who would you get in instead?
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Managers with a proven track records of success and overachieving. Moreover, with an attacking philosophy and a good player managment and player development capabilities that uses the most innovative sport science equipment. Easily, Pochettino or Nagelsman. That is all we need at United with a few player to return to glory.
 
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