Spot on.
If you can't see a system in the way Ole is playing football, look more closely.
Ole has no system that I can see ..... or do I just need better glasses?
- Thread starter The Boy
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Spot on.
If you can't see a system in the way Ole is playing football, look more closely.
Also what he says in his interviews on he wants his team to play is more or less what we see.
He always talks about midfielders going for forward passes quickly, play with pace and directness. Take risks, if we lose possession then we can always win it back. We see more or less same on pitch but with varying success in each game.
I’m thankful for this thread as it is one of the more frustrating clichés/myths I have to read over and over, and it comes in the way of real analysis. Latest example Jonathan Liew in The Guardian, who manages to point out all the right facts, just to end up with a completely incongruous conclusion: United have improved this year, Sevilla is in better form re match fitness, Sevilla is a top European team and very well drilled and disciplined, United still show themselves to be a better team, United have a lot of very young and still inconsistent players, United doesn’t yet have quality in depth, United created a lot more than Sevilla, United were too ineffective in finishing positions, Sevilla scored two goals from individual errors by two very young full backs, De Gea otherwise had little to do - conclusion: United have no system or playing style.
Despite the fact that continuous progression see us now able to outplay a very good and disciplined Spanish side in great form for large parts of the match, contain them successfully for most of the rest of the match, all which depends an obvious lot on having annorganized playing style - and what decides the match against us is inconsistency from youth, inconsistent finishing, and lack of options from the bench. All which have very little to do with systems or playing style.
It’s so lazy, and I sometimes wish people who are not capable of recognizing and defining what playing style, system or organization looks in a football team should not be allowed to come with conclusive statements about these matters.
Despite the fact that continuous progression see us now able to outplay a very good and disciplined Spanish side in great form for large parts of the match, contain them successfully for most of the rest of the match, all which depends an obvious lot on having annorganized playing style - and what decides the match against us is inconsistency from youth, inconsistent finishing, and lack of options from the bench. All which have very little to do with systems or playing style.
It’s so lazy, and I sometimes wish people who are not capable of recognizing and defining what playing style, system or organization looks in a football team should not be allowed to come with conclusive statements about these matters.
That's a strategy not a system. Strategy for the long-term. System is for the 90 minutes. I'm happy with the strategy part. I think United lacked systems under LVG too when we couldn't even create chances against teams who sat deep. Also: United's system under Mourinho was rubbish: buy giants and out-muscle opps. There's a synonym for "Ole has no system" = "we just lost another match and I'm fuming".
This is how many times we've made substitutions post lockdown by time (can't be arsed going back more than that)
Under 60 minutes - 5 times
60 to 70 minutes - 16 times
70 to 80 minutes - 17 times
80 to 90 minutes - 17 times
90+ minutes - 4 times
Really doesn't suggest he's unwilling to make subs until late in the game.
A good coach needs to be adaptive to a given situation. With Ole we only have a singular way of playing. If it doesn’t work then we are usually stuffed.
Sheep, that is what they are... *coming from afar* (sorry, couldn't resist
)Did you even read the articles in the OP? They categorically state that he's adapted and played in numerous ways, and have the media embedded within them to prove it.
This is usually how we end up when facing low blocks and/or organized defenses.
Bruno centrally just outside the 18 yard line, with Martial lurking just on the 18 yards line, whether it's from the center, from the left or from the right.
Rashford is on the left, with the left back coming in either outside or slightly deeper inside to help recycle the ball or create an overlap.
The same with Mason and Aaron on the right.
Pogba plays slightly deeper than Bruno, and is usually more open because of this. Helps keep possession, recycles the ball well, and when getting the ball has plenty of options with Bruno usually facing him to set up one-twos with either him or Martial. Martial usually starts running in behind/through their central defense from either side or center, Mason cutting inside or towards the goal line, and Rashford the same.
There's always a plethora of options, but given the very tight space to navigate for all players, the margins are very slim. You can see us trying to go through their defense using all players involved multiple times per game, and it works quite well I reckon. With more experience and a better squad, we're going to score for fun in many games this coming season.
Matic is positioned centrally, between the 18 yard box and the midfield. He's available for passing, pressing, and is key to this whole system working the way it does. His cool head and him not being tempted to push even further up or get out of position gives us defensive solidity, and he's also a decent passer. We do need someone with quicker feet and probably a better shot as well, though. Tonali is mentioned, as is Koopmeiners.
The system is there, clearly. This has worked out well for us time and time again since Brunos arrival. Even against Sevilla and København. We created plenty, but were let down by poor finishing and/or godlike goalkeeping.
The system is also set up for the right players to come in and do a job, and has severely exposed which players aren't good enough.
Grealish would work very well on both the left and centrally in this, and nevermind Sancho. He would love playing like this, it really suits his style of play, and he could do a job basically anywhere on offense in this setup. Andreas and Jesse? Not so much. They don't have time on the ball and have to be quick on their feet, quick in their heads, and be very precise with their passing. Not suited, not good enough, simple as.
Mata works to some extent due to his intelligence and passing ability (as seen against FCK), but he simply is't quick enough to do a good enough job against almost any decent side anymore, sadly.
Bruno centrally just outside the 18 yard line, with Martial lurking just on the 18 yards line, whether it's from the center, from the left or from the right.
Rashford is on the left, with the left back coming in either outside or slightly deeper inside to help recycle the ball or create an overlap.
The same with Mason and Aaron on the right.
Pogba plays slightly deeper than Bruno, and is usually more open because of this. Helps keep possession, recycles the ball well, and when getting the ball has plenty of options with Bruno usually facing him to set up one-twos with either him or Martial. Martial usually starts running in behind/through their central defense from either side or center, Mason cutting inside or towards the goal line, and Rashford the same.
There's always a plethora of options, but given the very tight space to navigate for all players, the margins are very slim. You can see us trying to go through their defense using all players involved multiple times per game, and it works quite well I reckon. With more experience and a better squad, we're going to score for fun in many games this coming season.
Matic is positioned centrally, between the 18 yard box and the midfield. He's available for passing, pressing, and is key to this whole system working the way it does. His cool head and him not being tempted to push even further up or get out of position gives us defensive solidity, and he's also a decent passer. We do need someone with quicker feet and probably a better shot as well, though. Tonali is mentioned, as is Koopmeiners.
The system is there, clearly. This has worked out well for us time and time again since Brunos arrival. Even against Sevilla and København. We created plenty, but were let down by poor finishing and/or godlike goalkeeping.
The system is also set up for the right players to come in and do a job, and has severely exposed which players aren't good enough.
Grealish would work very well on both the left and centrally in this, and nevermind Sancho. He would love playing like this, it really suits his style of play, and he could do a job basically anywhere on offense in this setup. Andreas and Jesse? Not so much. They don't have time on the ball and have to be quick on their feet, quick in their heads, and be very precise with their passing. Not suited, not good enough, simple as.
Mata works to some extent due to his intelligence and passing ability (as seen against FCK), but he simply is't quick enough to do a good enough job against almost any decent side anymore, sadly.
I think mostly the 'he has no system' rubbish just comes from lads that only see extreme systems and only once they are pointed out 15,000 times in mainstream media, like geigenpress or tiki taka. it doesn't become a 'system' until it gets a name in fifa
"Ole has no system that I can see."
Get a new pair of specs. Simple.
Get a new pair of specs. Simple.
But there’s literally no reason to panic as Maguire doesn’t really ever give the call away cheaply. He’s got the same qualities as Matic in that they both use their bodies well and put it between man and ball and can use strength to hold off attackers. Now if you said Smalling I’d understand it, he is technically a mess but Maguire isn’t, good control, crisp passing and he’s not even that bad at beating a man if push comes to shove. I think he alongside Shaw are our best defenders by far when it comes to press resistance so I don’t know why you feel nervous in that department.
Not a great system or say a title winning one. I like direct football and we try to do that, but we struggle against really compact defenses.
We also struggle to keep possesion when needed in games.
I go by what I see with my own two eyes mate. If plan A doesn’t work we struggle massively.
People expected us to struggle against Sevilla's pressing and thought we would have no sniff off the ball but we literally dominated them bar our finishing. Had we won that game many Ole doubters would have also praised him. I feel he is the most trolled and underrated manager. Some jist don't want to give him a chance as a manager because all they can think is this man failed at cardiff.
It's so unfortunate that our manager's name is not Ole Klopp Guardiola. We could have gone to town with that name.
This is actually funny to watch, even Pogba wouldn't overdo something like that at the back. Instead of keeping it simple, he just keep thinking and thinking and keeping and running around slowly with ball, before giving it away cheaply.
There are two ways a manager can build a great defence
A- he can add WC defenders to it.
B- He can engage into a deep analysis of what he's got and he buys players that compliment the defence accordingly. A classic example of Juventus CL winner of the 95-96. The defence was hardly spectacular (Porrini, Ferrara, Pessotto Vierchowood) but together they were rock solid
Sir Alex was blessed with 3 spectacular CBs two of which could easily be among the top 3 CBs in EPL history. However that wasn't the thought back in the day. Stam was a young CB from PSV. His attributes were spectacular but he was far from a safe bet and the fee we paid for him was considered ridiculous by many Italian critics back in the day. He was paired with Johnsen a Norwegian CB we bought from Besiktas. Meanwhile Rio was bought just 2 years after Sir Alex had ridiculed his transfer fee when he signed for Leeds while Vidic was a guy who was playing in Russia and who was set to sign for Fiorentina. TBH the only proven CB I can think off that Sir Alex bought with the sole intention of going there and immediately become the defence leader was Blanc.
United's defence prior Maguire lacked pace and leadership + was filled with right footed CBs. Spending 80m on pretty much a slight upgrade over Lindelof was silly irrespective how you tackle it. We need to move past buying safe often British players on silly money and look at players like Gabriel (rumoured at 30m), VDB (40M), Achraf (30-35m) and co.
Can someone help me out please (dont know where else to post) but there is threads on here that says I have insifficiant privilages to post and also im limited to 3 a day what do I need to do to get said priviliges ? Its doing my head in now thanks in advance for the help
We had some great periods in the game, but struggled before they scored the equalizer to keep the ball.
I think he deserve praise for the attacking performance at the start of both halves. Sadly we could not keep it up.
Sevilla are a solid side and it is not easy to just dominate them for 90 minutes. To be fair I was surprised we were able to attack them the way we did. I don't remember if we ever dominated a spanish side in a match. The point is had we won Ole would have received a lot of praise but we lost undeservingly and we hear loads of nonsense again how he is an average manager, just a PE teacher etc. etc.
I agree it was great to see our attack at the start of the second half. All over them and probably something we talked about in the break. Should have scored at least a goal from those chances.
Once we got tired though we should have changed things around. More possesion and maybe used some subs. Mata, Matic, Ighalo etc and maybe even considered Lingard.
Rashford and Greenwood looked off for sure and Martial was not at his very best either.
Absolutely that's a fair criticism of Ole. He has to trust his squad players more. I felt mata could have been subbed on much earlier and replaced with Rashford and I would have also taken Fred off and replaced him with Ighalo once we were behind.
I really really really tire of threads like this. I've been supporting Utd over 40 years. but people on here have such short memories - they can't remember the dross we were served up a few years back.
Before Ole arrived:
Since Ole arrived:
People cry at Ole because:
Before Ole arrived:
- we played boring keep-ball football under LVG and boring defensive football under Jose
- we had a huge amount of in fighting inside the club
- we signed lots of random players that didn't fit the teams playing style or didn't have the correct spirit/drive to wear the shirt
Since Ole arrived:
- Games are exciting to watch again.
- The players are playing for the team and leave everything on the field (even Martial!)
- Ole has managed to get rid of a lot of the deadwood and bad seeds within the club
- Ole has made a series of good signings. They might not all be world beaters and we may have paid over the odds for some of them but Maguire, AWB, Bruno have all significantly improved our starting eleven. James is a work in progress and was always expected to be.
People cry at Ole because:
- He has no plan in game
- He can't use his subs
- Our team squander possession in game
Excellent post mate and all completely true. Ole is an excellent man manager - before Ole players were giving up in games, throwing strops, in the news for the wrong reasons. He’s completely changed the mentality but we really need a few world class players to compete again.
I am afraid we are in this situation where the fan group is so divided. There is a portion of fans on twitter who are ole out regardless of what happens. Why? No idea.
There are fans who are completely deluded and say "we are manutd.. we cant be finishing this, we cant have a manager like this". I am sorry but who gave us the divine right to win things? What fans need to get in their head, this is 2020 football not 2010. We have to fight for victories and titles.
The issues I have with the tactics is that, they all say Ole has one way and cant change, then they say he has no system? well which one is it?
We have played counter attacking football and done well, recently we have played balanced football and done well.
Ole has had to work with 3 teams this season. He started off with a team that looked good started well, worked on it all pre season. Pogba, Martial, Shaw get injured. 3 key players which threw all his plans out the window.
We need a run of games with the first 11 and then take it from there.
The problem with fans is they are reactionary, a few bad games, the player is championship standard, a few good games, Ronaldo standard. We need to calm down and take a broader view at things.
Very strange conclusion.
Stam was clearly signed to be the defensive leader. The transfer fee was huge at the time and it was clear that he was brought in to replace Pallister as the defensive leader.
Rio was also clearly signed as a long term leader of the defence and future captain. He never really managed either but after a great spell at Leeds where he was made captain Fergie saw that leadership in him.
Vidic is probably the one not signed to be the leader but was the best defensive leader I've seen at United.
Overall, if you spend a record fee on a centre back, it's got to be with the intention that they will lead the defence.
That's not completely accurate. Bailly is fast. Smalling is fast, albeit perhaps shouldn't be counted since we then loaned him out. Tuanzebe is quite fast. Even Jones has decent pace. Lindelof was our slowest centreback and even he isn't actually slow, moreso just average. Obviously Maguire himself is slow though.
Our first choice of Lindelof and Maguire together is too slow of a partnership, especially when we want to play a high line. But 'most' of our centrebacks aren't.
Jones and Bailly are injury prone, Tuanzebe is a kid while Smalling was never given a fair chance to become Maguire's partner. It was evident that Lindelof would have become Ole's choice as Maguire's partner.
Which is a shame really. I still believe that Smalling is a far better partner for Slab head then Lindelof is.
I certainly expect it'd be a better partnership defensively and do wonder if it would be better overall than Maguire-Lindelof. I wish we'd given it a chance to see how they would go.
However I did see somebody else make a good point a while back. Having Smalling and AWB on the same side of the defence could be a real recipe for trouble. We can probably get away with one of them, but having both of them together could be somewhat of a black hole of ball-playing ability. We'd become very predictable when playing out of the back as everything would have to go through Maguire and Shaw on the left.
Stam was a CB bought from PSV. He never played outside of Holland and he had just 1 Dutch league under his belt . We had a certain Schmeichel, Irwin and Keane back then with Johnsen doing well during the previous year. So no Stam was not brought to be our defensive leader. He earned that role. We bought him because of his immense potential and his characteristics. In fact I think that Stam was the most complete CB Sir Alex ever had.
Rio was slightly more experienced having played in the EPL which included a successful CL run. However he was far from the safe WC bet he became later on. Just 2 years before Sir Alex ridiculed Leeds for spending 18m for him, claiming that Wes was worth twice the price.
We bought Vidic at the 11th hour. In fact Fiorentina was so close in signing him that they considered suing us for snapping him under their nose. That's how close he was from signing with them
All these players were bought purely because of the characteristics they brought to the team which fitted perfectly to what we needed at the time. As you said, if you spend a record fee on a centre back then the intention is to lead or even drag the defence to a highly ridiculously level. I can't see that happening with Maguire.
I was 100% certain that that was going to be our CB duo and honestly I still think it should. Smalling has his weaknesses but he won't be pushed aside or be beaten on air like Lindelof is. He's also rapid. I was expecting Maguire to act as the ball playing CB with Smalling closing gaps. Its far from perfection of course but I still think he's a better partner for Maguire then Lindelof is.
But I thought the team wasn't coached or well drilled and only knew one way of playing
Every manager will have a set of ideas or a 'system', but the degree to which they can understand and implement their ideas separates the best from the rest. An idea isn't good in and of itself, it's implementation needs to be considered as well.
At the end of the day, proof will be in the pudding next season. Will Ole have an overachieving system like most top managers have? If our trust in Ole's system is that great, then why not set the bar high.
At the end of the day, proof will be in the pudding next season. Will Ole have an overachieving system like most top managers have? If our trust in Ole's system is that great, then why not set the bar high.
Zidane doesn't have a fixed system or philosophy per se but he has a stronger squad and a better sense of when and how to use his players. He also boasts the aura of a world football legend.
What I'm curious about is drilling and coaching. I remember Mourinho and Van Gaal's staff being strong on these two behind-the-scenes. How are we doing now?
What I'm curious about is drilling and coaching. I remember Mourinho and Van Gaal's staff being strong on these two behind-the-scenes. How are we doing now?
I don't even get what people mean when they say this to be honest.
We've a really clear way of playing that we use in pretty much every game. The galaxy brain posters on here struggle to see it somehow.
We've a really clear way of playing that we use in pretty much every game. The galaxy brain posters on here struggle to see it somehow.
It is good you mentioned that. The funny thing is I keep hearing people talk about inexperienced coaching at United. Jose appointed Carrick and Mckenna as his staff too. So now, under Ole they are not good enough and inexperienced.
yet, when Arteta was appointed assistant to Pep, he is brilliant and is a fantastic coach.
It has to be said, we played brilliant stuff 15 minutes either side of half time against Sevilla, but after 60 minutes our forward players stopped making runs off the ball. When you watch Liverpool and city, when they play well, their front 3 or 4 players are always moving.
Whether that’s a fitness thing I don’t know but it’s as important as system.
Whether that’s a fitness thing I don’t know but it’s as important as system.
Excellent post. I do believe Ole got not just one but few systems in his head and he is capable of playing those based on the situation and having right players for that.
He has already proved himself that he is not a one tricky pony by playing just counter attacking football and he can adapt different systems based on the quality of players he got in his hands.
I stopped worrying about our style if play many months back and if one quality player like Bruno can change that, imagine what happens if he signs 3/4 other quality players so I trust Ole on this.
As you said, he can improve a lot by bringing in "value to money" players like Zakaria, Saul, Upamecano rather drowning in British talent channel and sucked into paying high premiums.