Ole Gunnar Solskjaer | W15 D2 L4

[Revan]

I think we've got a good shot at it, but right now I wouldn't have us as favourites.

Arsenal and Chelsea have very favourable run-ins, and both are likely to be above us once we've all played 30 games. Spurs could be in free-fall, but they've got the quality to stop it. Top 4 is on, but it's going to be really tough.

Spurs and Chelsea are losing points left and right, with Spurs having to play both City and Liverpool, while Chelsea having to come at Old Trafford. Arsenal has 5 away games in the remaining 8 games.

It is open for all, and we have good chances of ending there. I think that it will be us and Arsenal who will qualify for UCL.

 

[groovyalbert]

Spurs and Chelsea are losing points left and right, with Spurs having to play both City and Liverpool, while Chelsea having to come at Old Trafford. Arsenal has 5 away games in the remaining 8 games.

It is open for all, and we have good chances of ending there. I think that it will be us and Arsenal who will qualify for UCL.

Hadn't realised Arsenal had so many away games left - they travel so badly.

Spurs are in free-fall, but have more than enough quality to turn it around still. Chelsea will be interesting to watch. They seemed to have a mini-revival after the League Cup final, although today's result wasn't ideal. Be interesting to see how they get on. Whatever happens though, it's going to be one hell of a run in (top 4, title and relegation), and we have so much to be grateful to Ole for for ensuring we're a part of it.

We could end up with a very odd Manchester derby where a win for us gets us top 4 but wins Liverpool the title. Sophie's choice right there.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

We're still top in the 'Since Ole took over' league.

Source: http://solskjaertabellen.com

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

I don't want his children.
Want him sacked. Bite bite

Wasn't expecting white text since it's now more or less redundant because 50% of posts on here are taking the piss now! However, the reactions on here are ridiculous. We'll learn a lot from this disasterclass, and I believe we'll see a different side against Wolves in terms of attitude.

We'll probably spend 50k a week less on De Gea's contract now too.

 

[bosnian_red]

You can criticise the players but not the coach? I just think United are a better team than Arsenal right now, and despite De Gea making a wildly uncharacteristic mistake I thought we should have controlled the game better but we allowed them to get into the game more than we should have.

Main one for me was the change in setup. It made Pogba peripheral and allowed Xaka and Ramsey to get more joy than they had in the last game.

Criticising the manager doesn’t mean we want him out, he’s the man for the job - but this game wasn’t his best.

Of course in this case I can criticize the players because it's the individual mistakes that cost us. De Gea's mistake was huge and the reason they scored. Our players failing to finish on multiple chances were the reason we didn't. It happens, it's not a huge thing but it is on the players. In terms of how the game flowed/our control over it, I don't think we can have too many complaints. Arsenal are a good side with a terrific home record. We are a better side than them but at the Emirates they are always going to be slight favourites over us. It's the way it is for every big team playing at home. Even with that we limited them to not really that many chances (of course they didn't need to after they scored), while we created many but just didn't take it. If one of our 2 posts went in, or one of the other 3-4 chances were taken, we're not having this conversation.

 

[Red Dreams]

Chelsea , Spurs and Arsenal are all inconsistent.
We will make Top Four.

We did not play too badly.
We did not take our chances.

We Kick on.

 

[hocane]

Shit day at the office. Wasn't like a Jose defeat though where we didn't register a fecking shit on target. We were unlucky.

I don't understand. If it was a shit day at the office then why were we unlucky?

We weren't shit we had the best chances in the game and should have been 2-0 up at the brake, but if you don't put your chances away at this level you get punished.

Good game, poor finishing.

 

[LeftyBlaster]

Shit day at the office. Wasn't like a Jose defeat though where we didn't register a fecking shit on target. We were unlucky.

This.

 

[Lentwood]

If this argument were correct, it would essentially imply who the manager is has no effect on whether a team wins or not.

Were you saying the same on Wednesday or when we beat Arsenal in the FA Cup? Because if you're going to give Ole credit for those wins, we also need to consider the possibility his decisions might have an effect when we lose too.

He made a mistake today IMO, but that’s okay.

It doesn’t imply the manager has no impact at all. I’m saying don’t assign huge meaning to events that came about randomly and don’t go back after the fact and fit a narrative to these events as if they were all the result of a linear event path once Ole had selected his team

The point is to collect the biggest Data set you have (all of Ole’s results not just one) BUT be very, very careful about making judgements based solely on results because the point is Ole could do absolutely everything right in a game and we could lose or Ole could do everything wrong and we could win.

A football match is the outcome of millions of decisions and actions by 23(+) human beings and two sets of coaching staff.

The “fooled by randomness” part applies because when teams win, the “fools” praise the manager and when teams lose, the same fools criticise the manager and point to all kinds of mistakes they made which had the ball bounced differently, they would have lauded as great decisions

 

[TMDaines]

It doesn’t imply the manager has no impact at all. I’m saying don’t assign huge meaning to events that came about randomly and don’t go back after the fact and fit a narrative to these events as if they were all the result of a linear event path once Ole had selected his team

The point is to collect the biggest Data set you have (all of Ole’s results not just one) BUT be very, very careful about making judgements based solely on results because the point is Ole could do absolutely everything right in a game and we could lose or Ole could do everything wrong and we could win.

A football match is the outcome of millions of decisions and actions by 23(+) human beings and two sets of coaching staff.

The “fooled by randomness” part applies because when teams win, the “fools” praise the manager and when teams lose, the same fools criticise the manager and point to all kinds of mistakes they made which had the ball bounced differently, they would have lauded as great decisions

This is my type of poster. Need this sanity when we have five days until our next match and the best part of three weeks until our next league match.

 

[Andrew~]

Of course in this case I can criticize the players because it's the individual mistakes that cost us. De Gea's mistake was huge and the reason they scored. Our players failing to finish on multiple chances were the reason we didn't. It happens, it's not a huge thing but it is on the players. In terms of how the game flowed/our control over it, I don't think we can have too many complaints. Arsenal are a good side with a terrific home record. We are a better side than them but at the Emirates they are always going to be slight favourites over us. It's the way it is for every big team playing at home. Even with that we limited them to not really that many chances (of course they didn't need to after they scored), while we created many but just didn't take it. If one of our 2 posts went in, or one of the other 3-4 chances were taken, we're not having this conversation.

I think we would be having this conversation. There’s a reason why we have separate threads to discuss the performances of different players - very rarely is it ever one single factor that leads to us losing, but they are all worth talking about.

Yesterday we lost because of multiple reasons, primarily individual mistakes but in some part also because the boss made a tactical decision that didn’t work out. This is a thread about Ole so we’re talking about that.

It doesn’t imply the manager has no impact at all. I’m saying don’t assign huge meaning to events that came about randomly and don’t go back after the fact and fit a narrative to these events as if they were all the result of a linear event path once Ole had selected his team

The point is to collect the biggest Data set you have (all of Ole’s results not just one) BUT be very, very careful about making judgements based solely on results because the point is Ole could do absolutely everything right in a game and we could lose or Ole could do everything wrong and we could win.

A football match is the outcome of millions of decisions and actions by 23(+) human beings and two sets of coaching staff.

The “fooled by randomness” part applies because when teams win, the “fools” praise the manager and when teams lose, the same fools criticise the manager and point to all kinds of mistakes they made which had the ball bounced differently, they would have lauded as great decisions

I didn’t make a judgement because of results, I watched the game and I thought we would have performed better if there was a tactical change. We might not have won (that’s happened before), but we would have played better and restricted Arsenal more.

That’s not being ‘fooled by randomness’ - it’s called watching the fecking game.

Even in chaotic systems, there are factors that play into the ‘outcome’ more than others. And the decisions of the manager are those.

That’s why the manager rightly gets credit for amazing performances like Paris, and should also have some questions asked in games where we don’t play as well. It’s not a big deal, just like that mistake from De Gea doesn’t make him shit, a mistake from Ole in one game doesn’t make him shit either - we just have to be honest about that if we want to get better.

 

[Sauldogba]

I thought we was a little bit unlucky yesterday but that being said i do think he should shoulder some of the blame.
Playing Fred,Matic and Pogba together was a mistake.
As was not starting Martial.
I also find that he does leave it a bit late to bring on substitutes.

 

[Inigo Montoya]

I thought we was a little bit unlucky yesterday but that being said i do think he should shoulder some of the blame.
Playing Fred,Matic and Pogba together was a mistake.
As was not starting Martial.
I also find that he does leave it a bit late to bring on substitutes.

Nothing that hasn't been said...about 1000 times!

 

[golden_blunder]

Critics being critics.

We had more than enough chances to score 2-3 goals and there was some very good last ditch defending from arsenal

Don’t feel disappointed personally, was kinda expecting that a European hangover and injuries would catch up on us

Not Oles fault, tactics were good. If Lukaku has scored that early chance probably it would be a different conversation entirely

 

[GBBQ]

Yesterday was the first time that I thought Jose would have gotten a better result than Ole. Would have probably packed the defence and nicked a goal and then shut up shop.

However that's just in isolation, no way Jose would have made up the points difference to even have us in touching distance, no way he would have gotten past PSG. No need to over analyse a single match, even SAF had his bad days at the office. Its about how we get back up and keep putting the pressure on.

 

[Lentwood]

I think we would be having this conversation. There’s a reason why we have separate threads to discuss the performances of different players - very rarely is it ever one single factor that leads to us losing, but they are all worth talking about.

Yesterday we lost because of multiple reasons, primarily individual mistakes but in some part also because the boss made a tactical decision that didn’t work out. This is a thread about Ole so we’re talking about that.

I didn’t make a judgement because of results, I watched the game and I thought we would have performed better if there was a tactical change. We might not have won (that’s happened before), but we would have played better and restricted Arsenal more.

That’s not being ‘fooled by randomness’ - it’s called watching the fecking game.

Even in chaotic systems, there are factors that play into the ‘outcome’ more than others. And the decisions of the manager are those.

That’s why the manager rightly gets credit for amazing performances like Paris, and should also have some questions asked in games where we don’t play as well. It’s not a big deal, just like that mistake from De Gea doesn’t make him shit, a mistake from Ole in one game doesn’t make him shit either - we just have to be honest about that if we want to get better.

So if what you're saying is correct - had Lukaku put that early sitter away and we had won 3-0 with exactly the same set-up and exactly the same XI, you would have come on here and said the tactics where wrong? I didn't see many people saying our tactics where wrong or Ole got it wrong after the PSG game but we got absolutely battered for most of that game and scored three very lucky goals.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to criticise the manager and there won't be occasions when we CAN point to potential errors of judgement (always remembering the context those decisions where made in), I'm just saying be careful that you're not judging the performance of the manager solely on results which can owe much to luck and random events

EDIT: BTW I'm not meaning to insult you by using the word 'fool', it's purely with reference to the book. We are all 'fooled' all the time in life, politics, economics, sport etc....

 

[Lentwood]

This is my type of poster. Need this sanity when we have five days until our next match and the best part of three weeks until our next league match.

I had to be 'someone's kind of poster' eventually given the number of posts I make and the number of people on this forum but still.....thanks :-)

 

[roonster09]

Critics being critics.

We had more than enough chances to score 2-3 goals and there was some very good last ditch defending from arsenal

Don’t feel disappointed personally, was kinda expecting that a European hangover and injuries would catch up on us

Not Oles fault, tactics were good. If Lukaku has scored that early chance probably it would be a different conversation entirely

Yeah, we had injury crisis at very wrong time. In 15 days we played Liverpool, Palace away, Southampton, PSG away, Arsenal away. This is with players like Lingard, Herrera, Matic, Martial, Sanchez, Mata missing.

Very hard run of games with so many players missing. At least now few of them are back and we have international break after this week.

 

[Kapardin]

Yesterday was the first time that I thought Jose would have gotten a better result than Ole. Would have probably packed the defence and nicked a goal and then shut up shop.

However that's just in isolation, no way Jose would have made up the points difference to even have us in touching distance, no way he would have gotten past PSG. No need to over analyse a single match, even SAF had his bad days at the office. Its about how we get back up and keep putting the pressure on.

Packed the defense? We lost 3-0 and 3-1 against Spurs and City earlier this season under him.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Unlucky in my opinion. Lukaku should've scored at least two, while Arsenal got lucky with a flukey shot by Xhaka, and a very cheap penalty.

The tactics were alright. We were bound to lose in a tough away fixture at some point.

 

[buckooo1978]

Ole will know better by the end of the season but may be this is an indication about the level of some of the players

at their current level I don't think we will win a league with Rashford/Lukaku as a partnership

Rashford is still developing but will be become the kind of striker to become a consistent match winner?

Lukaku has been shit hot lately and although he missed some great chances yesterday I thought his link up play was good - again though is he going to develop from a streaky striker to someone with Ruud-like consistency

time will tell

 

[Fredo]

Was just a bad day at the office. We didn't take our chances, we did not find our rhythm to build up nice attacks, it was just moments of attack that we showed. Totally unlucky with hitting the crossbar/post, had Lukaku's chance gone in Arsenal would have succumbed. It wasn't meant to be yesterday and we all know that on any other day we would have beaten Arsenal. Let's focus on the next games as we just missed an invitation to solidify our top 4 status.

 

[Pexbo]

I thought we was a little bit unlucky yesterday but that being said i do think he should shoulder some of the blame.
Playing Fred,Matic and Pogba together was a mistake.
As was not starting Martial.
I also find that he does leave it a bit late to bring on substitutes.

Martial had just come back from injury, perfectly reasonable to give him a run out at the end.


I was initially willing for subs earlier than he made them but then had a think about it and could see his logic in holding back. We were on top of them and creating chances. Why be too hasty trying to bring on a player just because we hadn’t yet scored. It could have broken the rythum of the game and killed the momentum we had.

On another day, one of those chances goes in and we are calling him a genius for his patience.

 

[11101]

442 was a mistake, I think we need to drop it and go back to 3 in the middle. We have struggled a bit with it in previous games too. Arsenal played very wide and stretched our midfield out leaving massive gaps. If you look at our average positions, our midfielders were miles from each other, especially compared to Arsenal. Once we switched the formation and Pogba came infield we were much better but we'd already conceded by then. I don't think the individual players have too much to do with it today, the system meant we were always going to be overrun.

 

[TRUERED89]

McTominay should have started this game, he's been very good lately. Matic is too slow and hasn't played for weeks, he was never going to be up to speed, hence why I didn't include Matic in my lineup prediction, because I had a feeling he wouldn't be at his best.

 

[King7Eric]

I think we've got a good shot at it, but right now I wouldn't have us as favourites.

Arsenal and Chelsea have very favourable run-ins, and both are likely to be above us once we've all played 30 games. Spurs could be in free-fall, but they've got the quality to stop it. Top 4 is on, but it's going to be really tough.

Chelsea have to go to OT and Anfield and there next game is away to Goodison which even with this shite Everton side is never an easy game. They also have to go away to Leicester and play Cardiff and Burnley (2 teams fighting for their lives). Plus they gotta balance all this with their EL fixtures, which are gonna get tougher as they go deeper inn the competition. So I have no idea how you think they have a favourable run-in.

 

[Alemar]

We may still win a champions league to qualify to champions league

 

[Kapardin]

We may still win a champions league to qualify to champions league

We could also finish empty-handed and 6th.

But even if that happens, he has still done a brilliant job and deserves a shot next season. Even in the Arsenal game, his tactics were spot on and it was on the players that we lost.

I only have one concern about him, that whether he would drop players like Rashford for a spell if they perform badly. Rashford is from the academy and has been presented as the poster boy in a way, local and all that. Ole needs to treat him like the rest and drop him if he doesn't do well.

 

[GBBQ]

Packed the defense? We lost 3-0 and 3-1 against Spurs and City earlier this season under him.

This is correct. We also played neither of these teams yesterday. We played a so-so Arsenal team who lost to the mighty Rennes on Thursday night.

 

[Kapardin]

This is correct. We also played neither of these teams yesterday. We played a so-so Arsenal team who lost to the mighty Rennes on Thursday night.

Losing to Rennes does not make them any less a side? It's a one-off.

They raised their game with respect to their defense. Were very solid at the back, and despite that we missed 5 chances.

Our defense was relatively unperturbed. Their goals came from De Gea not moving at all to a Xhaka shot from outside the box and Lacazette taking advantage of Fred. So how would a "packed defense" win us the game when none of our defenders were responsible for the goals?

 

[midnightmare]

This is correct. We also played neither of these teams yesterday. We played a so-so Arsenal team who lost to the mighty Rennes on Thursday night.

Same "so-so" team that's dropped only 7 points at home all season (1 loss and 2 draws) in the league? It's amazing quite how entitled some of the fanbase can be - or maybe it's a sign of how the media (and Twitter) affects rationality. Arsenal this season have been tripe on the road, but amazing at home. They may well have lost to Rennes away (they also lost to BATE away, for the record), but they're a Top 6 side and have been superlative at home. To assume that we should have rolled them over would be presumptuous to say the least.

 

[Andrew~]

So if what you're saying is correct - had Lukaku put that early sitter away and we had won 3-0 with exactly the same set-up and exactly the same XI, you would have come on here and said the tactics where wrong? I didn't see many people saying our tactics where wrong or Ole got it wrong after the PSG game but we got absolutely battered for most of that game and scored three very lucky goals.

I'm not saying you don't have the right to criticise the manager and there won't be occasions when we CAN point to potential errors of judgement (always remembering the context those decisions where made in), I'm just saying be careful that you're not judging the performance of the manager solely on results which can owe much to luck and random events

EDIT: BTW I'm not meaning to insult you by using the word 'fool', it's purely with reference to the book. We are all 'fooled' all the time in life, politics, economics, sport etc....

Probably, I was moaning about the decisions to my girlfriend during the game. If we'd won I might not have come here about it, because I'd quite frankly be too busy bantering my brother (Arsenal fan) about it. That said, we lost, and I think the tactics contributed, so we're talking about them. I did't say anything about the PSG game because I thought Ole made mostly the right decisions and he deserves a massive amount of credit for taking a team that hurt by injuries and winning 3-1. I also don't believe we got lucky in Paris, the tactics and application were very good.

On this game, you can criticise the manager for using the wrong tactics, and also the poor application by certain players - both fair.

 

[No Idea For Nickname]

Wasn't expecting white text since it's now more or less redundant because 50% of posts on here are taking the piss now! However, the reactions on here are ridiculous. We'll learn a lot from this disasterclass, and I believe we'll see a different side against Wolves in terms of attitude.

We'll probably spend 50k a week less on De Gea's contract now too.

Why? Ball flies towards David and then turns left, very fast and close to him, he did not have enough time to react. Pretty sure other goalkeepers would be shocked as well. He is only human and saved out asses sooo many times. Shit happens, let's move on.
I don't like reading Caf after we lose, cause I get angry at some stupid posts blaming everybody and everything, for losing a game of football. It's like the end of the world here when we lose. Like last 3 months don't count any more. Some people need to realized you can't win evey game. Could have, should have scored a few, didn't. F**k it, let's move on.
I'm not afraid of not getting in top 4 or 3, Arsenal have this thing of showing up agains us only to lose next game. Spurs gave up and probably concentrating on CL. Hazard can't save Chelsea every game. Unai Ole's at the wheel, he'll do fine, already has.
On to the next game we go.

 

[Freak]

I’m surprisingly cool after this loss. We were the better team but lost because of a combination of a individual mistake, shit refereeing and our forwards not taking their chances.

We had so many chances to score a few goals and win the game but were unlucky. In the second half we were mostly dominating until the penalty then the players just lost their composure.

There was nothing wrong with Ole’s tactics. We were just unlucky on the day.

 

[Wolff]

Probably one of the best performances under Ole. Some really good football on display, and Arsenal hardly had a sniff. Unlucky, that was all. Hardly any reason to question anything.

 

[GBBQ]

Same "so-so" team that's dropped only 7 points at home all season (1 loss and 2 draws) in the league? It's amazing quite how entitled some of the fanbase can be - or maybe it's a sign of how the media (and Twitter) affects rationality. Arsenal this season have been tripe on the road, but amazing at home. They may well have lost to Rennes away (they also lost to BATE away, for the record), but they're a Top 6 side and have been superlative at home. To assume that we should have rolled them over would be presumptuous to say the least.

Did you read my first post where I said Mourinho might have packed the defence and nicked an away goal? Hardly rolling over them! Just think that Mou would have been ultra defensive as he tended to be in away matches at the top 6 and might have won.

Also, Arsenal weren't all that great yesterday, previous home form aside they were there for the taking and didn't look that threatening so I stand by my statement that yesterday they were a so-so team.

 

[GBBQ]

Losing to Rennes does not make them any less a side? It's a one-off.

They raised their game with respect to their defense. Were very solid at the back, and despite that we missed 5 chances.

Our defense was relatively unperturbed. Their goals came from De Gea not moving at all to a Xhaka shot from outside the box and Lacazette taking advantage of Fred. So how would a "packed defense" win us the game when none of our defenders were responsible for the goals?

So you do realise that the game would not have played out the exact same way as yesterday if Mourinho was in charge and adopted an ultra defensive approach (as he tended to do in away games against the top 6)?

 

[midnightmare]

Did you read my first post where I said Mourinho might have packed the defence and nicked an away goal? Hardly rolling over them! Just think that Mou would have been ultra defensive as he tended to be in away matches at the top 6 and might have won.

Also, Arsenal weren't all that great yesterday, previous home form aside they were there for the taking and didn't look that threatening so I stand by my statement that yesterday they were a so-so team.

Mou had converted our defence into the laughing stock of the league. We weren’t even able to park the bus against the likes of Brighton. We were toothless and clueless in attack and a shambles at the back. Under Mou, we’d have lost but not even looked unlucky.

You’re either just willfully ignoring facts or have blanked out the first half of the season if you think Mou would have got anything out of the game. I repeat, this same “so-so” Arsenal has dropped a mere 7 points at home having played every big team there is and 9 of the top 10. Quite why you insist this was an upset of the form book is explained only by you focusing on our recent form under Ole.

Nothing in the form books suggests that Mou would have got anything from this game. Mou’s splendid bus-parking and defensive ‘organization’ left us winless against the top sides (home and away) and with the worst Intra Big 6 record.

 

[Gator Nate]

McTominay should have started this game, he's been very good lately. Matic is too slow and hasn't played for weeks, he was never going to be up to speed, hence why I didn't include Matic in my lineup prediction, because I had a feeling he wouldn't be at his best.

This is probably the only criticism of Ole's game plan that I agree with, and even it is pretty small in the whole scheme of the game. For all the stick McT's gotten during his run, I really feel he can do a lot for the team without the ball. The kid knows how to frustrate opponents with his physicality.

As many have rightly said, bad day at the office. Lukaku couldn't buy a goal yesterday. As poor as things turned out, we won too many statistical categories to say we played poorly. We did seem to be passing poorly, but really no worse that the other side. This isn't a game to dwell on, and I'm not even sure there's much to learn from it. Losing to a top-6 six team on the road isn't the end of the world.

5 days to Wolves!

 

[GBBQ]

Mou had converted our defence into the laughing stock of the league. We weren’t even able to park the bus against the likes of Brighton. We were toothless and clueless in attack and a shambles at the back. Under Mou, we’d have lost but not even looked unlucky.

You’re either just willfully ignoring facts or have blanked out the first half of the season if you think Mou would have got anything out of the game. I repeat, this same “so-so” Arsenal has dropped a mere 7 points at home having played every big team there is and 9 of the top 10. Quite why you insist this was an upset of the form book is explained only by you focusing on our recent form under Ole.

Nothing in the form books suggests that Mou would have got anything from this game. Mou’s splendid bus-parking and defensive ‘organization’ left us winless against the top sides (home and away) and with the worst Intra Big 6 record.

Every season at united Mou had pulled off big wins against "better" opposition. He had done it already against Juventus in the CL and had a draw against Chelsea when we really should have won. All that you say about Mourinho is accurate but to think that a stuttering Arsenal side would have represented an impossible challenge is just not true. Even at his worst he still pulled it out of the bag from time to time.