I’m just saying the standard to win then league isn’t any higher than it was early 2010. To beat United to the title you would literally have to hit the numbers you just mentioned.
This, the amount of post match threads where we had won the game but the majority of the comments we among the likes of "we were shite again, but Ill take the 3 points."
If Henderson and Lingard are to be believed, they were made promises by Ole which never materialized, causing, what i would assume all the leaks and contributing to the dressing room becoming toxic. That has very little to do with Ronaldo IMO, but i do agree with your overall point that signing Ronaldo accelerated his downfall. But that's another symptom of Ole not being up to the job, IMO. He either signed off on the signing or if he didn't, he was clearly not strong enough to push back.
Yeah, generally he brought a “feel good” factor back to the club after Jose left. But I reckon it’s a series of “mismanagement” decisions which, one compounded after the other, which finally brought about the toxicity. The Lingard/Henderson things, playing Rashford through injury, other players playing irrespective of form. Ronaldo was just the final nail in the coffin. So I guess there’s a middle ground between “Ronaldo brought the toxicity” to “it was coming, Ronaldo just contributed heavily towards it”. IMO anyway.
Yeah I think ultimately if a coach isn't good enough, the bad mood will just creep in as players start losing belief in the manager and eventually they just can't get going under them anymore. I mean sometimes it happens even with a top manager like Klopp, but especially for a team like United, we'd never be happy with just top 4. You need to make the step up to challenge and he wasn't able to do that so it imploded.
Yep, ultimately if you're unable to take that final step and win something, players will also get tired. Let alone supposedly making false promises to players who are known (sort of) "troublemakers" etc. He had a decent stint at certain points but ultimately fell short and was responsible for his own demise. End of.
But there is no stories coming out of there, no team leaks so id say publicly they look out of form, obviously there has to be discontent but it's kept indoors.
I didnt say major leaks but there was stories, even the video with Mourinho and Pogba with him not tolerating the handshake, i'd say they are loads of these happening every day in training but none publicized, in my opinion it was staged as I think someone knew the reaction would be, team leaks were always common last few seasons.
Yeah, absolutely Pogue. That poster mentioned something along the lines of "the toxicity only came with Ronaldo" which others disagreed with and then he ranted about people being revisionism and making shit up. But toxicity takes many forms, as you mentioned. The poster says "players like Lingard and Henderson" (2 players i brought up) are in every squad and managers have their favorites and i don't disagree with that but my point was that, if what those 2 have said are to be believed, and they were promised minutes which never materialised - then that's also a form of management which would create/lead to toxicity - i.e. if a manager loses credibility in his words/promises it leads to the same outcome, whether in corporate or in sports IMO. So whilst i agree that Ronaldo seemed the final straw, there were already signs of toxicity all around the place: off to the top of my head, including Lingard and Henderson, there was Pogba who didn't seem fully committed, Bailly speaking about the English contingent being favored (because players in terrible form were still being picked even though he couldn't stay fit which is another matter), Rashford supposedly playing through injury which clearly impacted him (mentally, physically) the last 12-18 months before EtH arrived etc.
You’re right, but the fact remains Ole was just too inexperienced to step up as a coach for a club this big. I’m sure he gave everything he had and worked to the best of his ability, but the odd mix of players led to a woefully unstable team and one that pretty much became unresponsive and toxic. He looked drained towards the end, but the real culprits for our demise were Woodward, Mourinho and Matt Judge imho.
