Klopp finished 8th so fingers crossed we can match or even beat that! although Klopp wasn't left expecting a 17 year old with no league goals to win games for them.
Ole said publicly that he expected them to be replaced, none of them were.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Ole said publicly that he expected them to be replaced, none of them were.
Klopp finished 4th. So let’s hope we can match that.
No he wasn’t. But he had an unfit Sturridge; no Benteke and Origi who was as good as Calvin- Lewit.
What Klopp would have done with this squad from the start or in the summer is a different debate. Personally i said we'd struggle without Lukaku when most seemed excited about it in the summer.
Right now though with what we've got (and continuous injuries), any manager would struggle in attack.
Of course but the ones we got rid of weren't any better. And Ole wanted to keep Herrera. All of that is on Woodward.
I agree. Ed is the virus here, but Ole apparently agreeing to everything hasn’t helped.
It's not even comparable to Klopp. Klopp had proven his ability as a manager, whereas Ole had failed everytime he has tried to step up from the Norwegian league.
Also, even wtih how terrible Liverpool's squad was when he took over, you could see the patterns of play beginning to form and they were still playing some great stuff. The evolution was clear to see.
Under Ole, there is none of that. We look clueless in attack and defence. As much as I love the guy, I'd rather he leaves early, than inevitably when he's tarnished his image here. He's just not got what it takes to cut it as a top manager. The quality of coaching in England and Europe now is way too high now. Simply buying better players who 'want to play for us', isn't going to be nearly enough.
Klopp, Pep and Poch etc. have proven they can improve their players. You can't really say any player bar maybe Martial (?) who just looks happier playing as a striker, has improved under him.
Poch seems like he's no longer content at Spurs, I feel if we push it, he would be happy to come. I just really hope we don't leave it too late and feck ourselves for another few years, yet again.
Also, even wtih how terrible Liverpool's squad was when he took over, you could see the patterns of play beginning to form and they were still playing some great stuff. The evolution was clear to see.
Under Ole, there is none of that. We look clueless in attack and defence. As much as I love the guy, I'd rather he leaves early, than inevitably when he's tarnished his image here. He's just not got what it takes to cut it as a top manager. The quality of coaching in England and Europe now is way too high now. Simply buying better players who 'want to play for us', isn't going to be nearly enough.
Klopp, Pep and Poch etc. have proven they can improve their players. You can't really say any player bar maybe Martial (?) who just looks happier playing as a striker, has improved under him.
Poch seems like he's no longer content at Spurs, I feel if we push it, he would be happy to come. I just really hope we don't leave it too late and feck ourselves for another few years, yet again.
That was the point I made when there were a lot of posts discussing Ole as a DoF. That deal for me reeked of bad planning and without an objective evaluation of the weakest points in the squad.
And if our coaching team is drawing from Fergie's blueprint, they definitely should've prioritized fixing our tame attack first.
Especially in the current football climate.
He finished 8th.
Careful, don’t hit Liverpool enthusiasts with facts.
Klopp has walked on water since the day he arrived.
And reached 2 finals, and improved their style drastically in short time, while getting the job in Octobre or November without having a transfer market before it.
And was frequently criticized until he reached the CL final. A lot of this Klopp praise is after the fact.
Criticized here, because all of us, me included, didn't like to admit he was improving them, however I bet Pool fans were over the moon with how the team was improving on obvious basis from year to year.
Lads. Klopp got the job in October/November. He finished 8th in the same amount of time Ole managed to finish 6th. I was speaking about transfers and board decisions. It falls exactly in line with where we are with Solskjaer now. So unless Solskjaer ends the season in 4th he’s not achieved what Klopp has. But yes like someone else said he also reached 2 finals. Solskjaer got knocked out the Fa cup and Champions league.
So go FACT check that.
Im no Liverpool enthusiast and dont particularly enjoy the football they play but he has pretty much walked on water since he got there. Their team improved season on season till a point where they are now champions of Europe. The man is brilliant at his job, comparing Ole to him is nothing short of foolish.
He builds teams top to bottom. So at the very least he'd have assessed what he has in attack and decided on who stays and who goes. Not spend all our cash on a defence while we watch Lingard do his best to stifle a side.
Exactly why wouldn’t we laugh at them. They are our biggest rivals. It was nice to finish 2nd whilst they scraped 4th and lost another final. Great banter but we all knew only one club was going in the right direction and it wasn’t us.
The success of pretty much all of their transfers recently is miraculous, I think it’s actually undervalued when Klopp comes into it.
As far as OgS, he isn’t in the same league as a Klopp. He could finish 3rd or above this season & that wouldn’t change that.
My point was similar to one above, now Klopp has won something it puts their journey into perspective but prior to the UCL win doubts were beginning to arise.
If you’re looking for someone to debate OgS vs Klopp then I’m out.
Nah I used to go on a Liverpool forum and heap criticism on him, a lot of their fans were doing the same. Unfortunately, he foiled my plan to put pressure on him and get him sacked by reaching a CL final.
It's only after the CL final that they piped down about most of his issues.
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I wasn’t really debating it. I was trying to explain even with a bog standard board a good manager can get the job done. So when people say I.e. even Klopp wouldn’t struggle here I just want to know why. We give mangers money to spend world record fees on defenders and allow them to tell us a 20 goal a season EPL striker is not important to the team.
Yes it’s not perfect. We really should have been spending £150m Net considering our finances to a Liverpool but managers have hardly had it bad enough that they can’t get top 4.
If Ole was wise enough he would have got a RW for his attacking football he wanted to play whilst also getting a destroyer to help Pogba be unleashed. That’s probably what Klopp would have done with the money. But all hypothetical.
Ole stats say it all. The sooner he gets the sack the better.
Those people are confused. With the money we have building a competent team shouldnt be half as hard as these blokes have made it look. Heck, you even have room for error cause we seem to always have extra funds. What we've found impossible is managers seemingly getting zero transfers right and don't get me started on the actual coaching of the side.
We are a competent manager away from being competitive again. Sadly the man who's hiring these blokes...is incompetent himself. There isnt a transfer that Pool have made in the past half a decade that we couldn't have made.
Pretty certain that with same result but if we saw improvements and style of play emerging many would be happy. Ole’s getting judged as not good enough because he screwed up a window and left us weaker then when he came in and after 9 months it’s obvious his a poor coach/manager. For me anyways not judging Ole purely because of stats.
Let me restate these facts:
Fact is, Klopp had Liverpool scoring the 2nd most goals behind Spurs since he was manager of Liverpool in that first season. 55 goals in 30 matches in fact. If you remove his first 3 months (manager bounce in October, November, and December), he had Liverpool 1st in goals scored in his first season or in other words first in goals scored since January. Since the start of February (if you want to be favorable to Ole), he had Liverpool in 1st in goals scored.You could clearly see what he wanted from his side.
Ole had United with 4th most goals since he was caretaker manager (since December) and 15th most goals since the start of February. So clearly, Ole relied on a 1 month period.
Want more damning statistics to finally shut up the Klopp comparisons? Liverpool scored 16 goals in 8 matches in the first season after Klopp had a full preseason with Liverpool. Ole currently has 8 goals in 6 matches after a full preseason. Does this mean Ole doesn't want to play attacking football like he stated after Mou was sacked? Or does this mean that he needs even more money than Klopp had at the time to get his side to play entertaining football or to even have his side play in the image that he wants? Enough with the excuses. There are excuses for results, there are no excuses for failing to coach the side into something that looks different from our boring dire football.
United fans are asking Ole to simply make our side look more fluid in attack. Our football is dire. Don't get it twisted, just because Klopp didn't get the results (due to defense), doesn't mean you couldn't see his imprint on his side. It's rewriting history to suggest that just because results didn't come that he somehow played dire football. Either that, or you guys are completely missing the point with the criticisms labeled at Ole. The bar has been lowered for all of our managers. The central point to all this is that we want to enjoy watching United play football. If we can see that, we can trust he'll get us back or at least set us off on the right track. None of them achieved this. And Ole has shown no signs of achieving this in the past 6-7 months.
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The tactics and general in game management just look non existent concepts for Ole.
I also worry that we won't buy any players outside of Britain while Ole is manager. Think that is down to a combination of him not knowing the european market and his inability to attract players due to them having doubts about his credentials.
Personally I think he really needs to get a coach on board that understands the continental market better than he does. That certainly isn't Carrick, Phelan or Mckenna.
He needs to bring in someone stronger who is willing to challenge him on decisions that he makes,I don't believe those three are capable of that.
I also worry that we won't buy any players outside of Britain while Ole is manager. Think that is down to a combination of him not knowing the european market and his inability to attract players due to them having doubts about his credentials.
Personally I think he really needs to get a coach on board that understands the continental market better than he does. That certainly isn't Carrick, Phelan or Mckenna.
He needs to bring in someone stronger who is willing to challenge him on decisions that he makes,I don't believe those three are capable of that.
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There should be some context to those comparisons. The team Klopp had was better, simply because it was more complete. It had centerbacks, fullbacks, defensive mids, central mids, attacking mids, wingers, and strikers. He could actually field an 11 in their natural positions.
Take a look at the team: https://www.transfermarkt.us/fc-liverpool/startseite/verein/31/saison_id/2015
Comparing with us, we had (and still have) quite a few glaring holes. We don't have a DM, and we only have one winger. In fact, there are quite a few players I would take in there to improve our midfield situation right now. The fact is, in every game we're playing at least two players out of position, usually more. This all affects the fluidity of the team, especially the makeshift wingers who often play like they don't have a clue.
Now not getting more players may be Ole's fault, but IMO those are mistakes which are permissible, especially if he attempts to rectify them in January and next Summer. Like you said previously, the fatal mistake would be a pragmatic, defensive gameplan but that's not what I've been witnessing. I'm seeing the attacking intent being hampered by the areas we are lacking in, which is a different matter entirely.
Of course, none of this is to say Ole is on Klopp's level, but I don't think Ole is playing pragmatically or playing incohesive football by choice.
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I don't know why Ole would buy Dan James. Yes, he is young and one for the future. I would never prioritize James if I am not playing him on the right. Selling Lukaku and loaning Sanchez and Herrera on free without replacement is damn stupid from a manager. He should demand Ed to find at least 2 players to be replace, one CM and one striker at least. Ole made his own decision and if he get sack in January, then he fully deserve it.
That's what I'm trying to say. Right now the job is such that one screw up and you're very close to the sack. Other managers might get another window or two, or a bit more time to correct their mistakes and learn, but at Man Utd, it's immediate massive pressure.
Putting Ole to the side, you must admit that's not too enticing for top managers, and also very hard conditions to succeed under.
Please explain how you would make a team with Matic, Fred, Lingard, Mata and Pereira fluid in attack?
That doesn't look better than us in any meaningful way. It looks like you're reaching in order to make Ole's season look better. Even if you were to include this summer's transfers and compare it to Klopp's first season without transfers, it doesn't reflect well on Ole. For example, where is the coordinated pressing that we all believed was going to come after a summer of fitness training? Why did we play faster in Ole's first month than we have this season after a full preseason? You're telling me it's impossible to do this? Then how is Lampard doing it?
You can't. This is the point I am making time and time again. Only a fool would think he can. So what are the choices?
You change the style of play that the players available can play and not get beaten. That means for the time being abandoning these fluid flow of football. Bring in players like Jones and Rojo into the midfield instead of Matic and Pogba. Push Pogba up to the top of the diamond. Get Martial and Rashford or James up on top with Greenwood as a back up.
Play Scott or Fred on the right side of the midfield.
Make sure that we don't lose the centre circle. If Jones get dragged out, then the midfield player from the other side should come narrow.
When he gets the players who can play the flowing football then he can change it.
Otherwise we will lose position in the table and would have an almost impossible task of getting up the table.
Great post.
Fans of Ole only want to judge him on a 2-month period, the truth of the matter is that he has been a football manager for 10yrs and he's not a top class manager and the longer he's at the club the more he's exposed as nothing
more than an unexceptional manager.
So you're saying it's impossible to do it for lower level clubs like Norwich? BTW, he had more options in the last 2-3 months as manager and it wasn't any better. Even if we were to lower the bar even further than just mentioning attack, where is our coordinated pressing? That's now impossible with these players too?
Quite a few questions, I'll try my best.
1) The coordinated press can only be done with certain individuals on the pitch. Or rather, it cannot be done with certain individuals, namely Mata and Matic. Both of whom we were forced to play recently. Re-watching the Rochdale match where Lingard, Fred, and Pereira played, I see pressing. Uncoordinated because the coordination takes time, but the building blocks are there to see.
2) At that time we played a 4-3-3 which fit most of our players, especially the midfield which was able to move the ball more quickly. Ole has switched to a 4-2-3-1, I'm guessing due to a further decline of Matic, as well as the departure of Herrerra who was a key player in the 4-3-3. I reckon Matic isn't mobile enough to play the role Ole wants, and McTominay can't bring the ball out on his own, so to him the formation change was necessary.
Honestly, I personally would love it if he switched back, as I think this 4-2-3-1 doesn't suit our best players. However, if we had a competent DM and AM, then it wouldn't matter if Pogba played DLP, and that may even be his most optimal position. Maybe Ole has a plan for future transfers involving players in those positions. Time will tell if he's made the right decision.
3) Lampard's predecessor was Sarri who, if he did nothing else, drilled possession football into them for the whole season before Frank took over. Initially under Sarri, they looked stale and blunt, but Lampard is definitely reaping the fruits of their team, their midfield especially, being able to play that possession style. It was a smooth transition in terms of style, as opposed to going from Jose to a more attacking manager.
As for the Liverpool team I posted, as I said before I think it was better because it was more complete. For instance, replacing Casemiro with Pogba or De Bruyne wouldn't make Real Madrid better, because they'd be unbalanced due to a lack of a DM. That's the struggle we're facing right now, we outright don't have players for certain positions. Some, we've neglected for years, and that lack of balance makes us worse despite the 'names' of our players.
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In fact, I'm watching the Rochdale match right now, and I've got to say there was a real lack of quality displayed by our boys. If you have time, just watch the first 20 minutes. Quite a few potential opportunities spurned due to poorly weighted or inaccurate passes, or wrong decisions. But I do see the general playstyle Ole is trying to implement.
Watch the first 20 minutes at least, and you'll see the moments I'm talking about.
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To be honest , from the get go it appears that Ole was told there would be a striker coming in as Laukaku and Sanchez were finally moved on, then in typical Woody fashion it was all bluster, was it a case of saving money or inability to actually execute a transfer.
Probably a mixture of both, he and Judge are absolute plonkers and shouldn't be in a position to run a club as big as Man Utd with no football background, their appointment is and was a failure of best practice and confirms that the owners don't see the team as the most important piece of the takeover.
We will now get puff pieces and continuous outline of intentions in leaks to the media by Teflon Ted, and little will be achieved. Situation unchanged. The great ship Man Utd is not full steam ahead these days.
I’m about to go bed but I’m gonna leave you wit
This guy gets it
Seriously sick of hearing united fans thinking Solskjær was happy with no replacements.
Why would any manager want this?
This guy gets it
Seriously sick of hearing united fans thinking Solskjær was happy with no replacements.
Why would any manager want this?
I don't think anyone really believes that Ole was happy without any replacement players.
But he should have been looking at more than a few options. When there was no Longstaff that seems to be it.
He should have gone for Mandzukic too. He was there on the cheap. He should have strengthened his midfield before the defence.
But he should have been looking at more than a few options. When there was no Longstaff that seems to be it.
He should have gone for Mandzukic too. He was there on the cheap. He should have strengthened his midfield before the defence.
The one area of the pitch that should never be neglected is the attack. To be honest none of Martial or Rashford show any signs of ever being man utd level players. Can easily be judged by how many big clubs covet any of these players the way Bayern have been pursuing Hudson Odoi etc. I said at the time it was crazy to sell Lukaku when we did. Right decision would have been to hold off for another season even if it meant getting less for him. A fee of £10m less would be worth what he would have meant for our season plus we would have a replacement lined up.
Fecking hell! The absolute state of that squad..
I’m still really happy with how things are going.
I think the football has got better, the signings have been better and the sales have been brilliant.
I think the football has got better, the signings have been better and the sales have been brilliant.
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