Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[He'sRaldo]

Y'know, with all the comparisons with Pep and Klopp, most would have you think they knew right from the start those two would be successful.


I definitely know that's not the case having browsed other forums during their initial seasons there. They were also under a lot of pressure at different points, and in fact, it's only very recently that Klopp has shaken the 'no Liverpool trophies' monkey off his back, after substantial spending.


I remember quite a lot of people thinking that they were frauds who couldn't hack it in England after their first season, but of course, right now everyone is fixated on the end result, ignoring the process they both went through.


That's why I keep saying it's best to focus on ourselves, because these constant comparisons do us no good, as they are done with massive amounts of hindsight and thus are not realistic.

 

[AshRK]

As you pointed out with Chelsea, that's the same United have done in these matches. Play well for 15 - 20 minutes and then drop off, with the exception of the game against Wolves where I did feel we were the better team. Your possession stat is useless as these are teams that are happy to give up possession, especially when they're up 1-0. So stop rewriting theories to support YOUR agenda. You make an excuse for every game, the truth is we weren't good enough and did not get result. Don't blame a lack of quality when the opposition are teams the likes of CP, Southampton and Rochdale.

I never said we were amazing. if I had any agenda I would have openly said Ole is the man. Infact I did say Ole has to do better. You claimed we were outplayed when we have not been. If you are saying we have not been good enough then yes I agree with you but to say we have been outplayed is plain bs.

 

[Eric7C]

Nobody is expecting miracles. They're expecting a manager to do his job. If he can't he should go. It's funnier how some believe the manager isn't accountable becuase of his squad isn't ideal. Defunct logic.

Bang on.

 

[AshRK]

Nobody is expecting miracles. They're expecting a manager to do his job. If he can't he should go. It's funnier how some believe the manager isn't accountable becuase of his squad isn't ideal. Defunct logic.

Manager is accountable , so are the players, so is the board. It's not one or the other. I don't know why some feel like that. Because I say we don't have an amazing squad doesn't mean Ole is doing a good job. No he is not, but to expect a new manager will come and make this squad to reach great heights is also wrong.

 

[Cassidy]

Manager is accountable , so are the players, so is the board. It's not one or the other. I don't know why some feel like that. Because I say we don't have an amazing squad doesn't mean Ole is doing a good job. No he is not, but to expect a new manager will come and make this squad to reach great heights is also wrong.

Don't think anyone is expecting that, most would settle for comfortably beating Astana and Rochdale and looking like a football team

 

[Leftback99]

Fair enough.

I still believe that there's something fundamentally wrong with the training because we seem to struggle every now and then against everyone. Worse teams put out better performances than us (norvich against city) with worse personnel.

We struggle because we barely have any dangerous players in attack especially when 2/3 of our best are injured. The Norwich game was a fluke relying on City mistakes that if they played again would happen maybe 1 in every 10 games.

 

[I Am Zlatan]

Manager is accountable , so are the players, so is the board. It's not one or the other. I don't know why some feel like that. Because I say we don't have an amazing squad doesn't mean Ole is doing a good job. No he is not, but to expect a new manager will come and make this squad to reach great heights is also wrong.

I agree with what you say, I’ve been saying it for a while, the blame on the manager and Ed and the board, since before ole, and now with ole. The players are to blame as well, but if they’re shit, and they keep getting picked/not replaced, then I would blame the board first, then ole..

Also isn’t it a managers job to alter tactics/formation and instructions to work with what he has? Why persist with a certain formation/tactics (or lack of) when you don’t have the right players?

 

[He'sRaldo]

Y'know, with all the comparisons with Pep and Klopp, most would have you think they knew right from the start those two would be successful.


I definitely know that's not the case having browsed other forums during their initial seasons there. They were also under a lot of pressure at different points, and in fact, it's only very recently that Klopp has shaken the 'no Liverpool trophies' monkey off his back, after substantial spending.


I remember quite a lot of people thinking that they were frauds who couldn't hack it in England after their first season, but of course, right now everyone is fixated on the end result, ignoring the process they both went through.


That's why I keep saying it's best to focus on ourselves, because these constant comparisons do us no good, as they are done with massive amounts of hindsight and thus are not realistic.

In fact, let's go a bit further and look at the Champion that season, Chelsea. Conte too was under quite a bit of pressure the beginning of that season caught in the aftermath of a messy Mourinho exit, but eventually turned it around with his 'revolutionary' 3-man defence, and won the title comfortably. All while Pep and Klopp were floundering, relatively.


Back then, Conte was for sure rated higher than them at that moment, but as we can see things turned out differently.


All to say that, we should sometimes recognize when we are speaking with certainty about things which for sure take hindsight to know. Just because things look bad right now, doesn't mean they'll stay this way.

 

[Majima]

I keep wanting it to not be true, but that's a pretty accurate assessment. The Xg stuff is all fun with numbers, but from an observers view i don't see much difference either. We have a better defense and are pressing more. But the setup and play is still stale, counter attack tripe. I actually preferred LVGs slow style because you could see the team keep form and move as a unit to create dominance, just without the final end product which he himself admitted was the next build. But there's nothing in it now. No patterns of play. Just trash. And it's not just because we have no creativity. It's much more than that.

If we can't have a better defence after adding two of the best in the league in their positions then something's wrong isn't it? AWB has been a revelation in particular. I also liked LVGs time even if it was slow and boring because i could actually see the progress and team structure improving from his coaching. He had an old team too which were used to playing in an opposite way so that affected things. I see nothing now, we have gone backwards from a modern style ever since he left. I hope our next manager is a meticulous trainer because my god do we need it.

 

[AshRK]

Mate, expecting comfortable victories against lower league teams is expecting too much? One team got beat by City u21s...

These are the games where we can see that something must be going on but the same shite served up again and again? Do you honestly think that getting any kind of decent performances from this lot is beyond achievable?

Attacking wise yes, it is difficult. Our most experience attackers now comprise of Mata, Lingard, Periera. In these three you get one of the most bland attack you can have. With Martial and Rashford injured we are expecting a 17 year old and 21 year old James to unlock the defenses. Ole definitely has to take blame but I just don't think any coaching can make Mata, Periera and Lingard better. That's why I say this will be a slow process. We need some whole changes in the attack.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

We struggle because we barely have any dangerous players in attack especially when 2/3 of our best are injured. The Norwich game was a fluke relying on City mistakes that if they played again would happen maybe 1 in every 10 games.

Yeah it might be a fluke but still the performance they put up was commendable. We wouldn't match them in that regard.

 

[bleedred]

It's funny how suddenly people are expecting miracles from this squad. Some here still think we have a good squad to finish 3rd. I don't know what they are smoking but it sure must be good.

Yeah, we need miracles to win against Rochdale, palace and s'oton.

 

[AshRK]

Yeah, we need miracles to win against Rochdale, palace and s'oton.

Miracles to finish 3rd for sure.

 

[Wumminator]

Yeah, we need miracles to win against Rochdale, palace and s'oton.

Or Chelsea and Leicester.

 

[ash_86]

Was there really an adjustment at higher level for Liverpool after or even before Klopp became manager? Or was it more an adjustment to buy players that Klopp wanted and fit his style of play? I honestly don't recall there being major changes. From what I can remember, it was more Klopp coaching and implementing his style which you could see would eventually get even better once they addressed weaknesses (Alisson & VVD) being the most obvious. The 17/18 season comes to mind, United finishing 2nd and Liverpool 4th but you could see they were going in a better direction.

We didn't hear a lot because most of the stuff happened in the backend and silently , the way it should be. Even under Rodgers didn't they challenge for the league until slippy G happened? The way the club was run it was sooner or later they are going to come to top. We talk about them getting Klopp and become a great team, before he Joined Liverpool didn't Woodward talk to Klopp about United Job? Why wasn't he able to convince Klopp to manage us? Given our war chest it should have been a pretty easy thing to convince , no? So how do we know Ed could convince any other good manager when he doesn't have iota of football knowledge? That's where the need to a DOF comes into picture. If we Sack Ole before getting ina proper DOF, we're not going to get any good Managers as far as i can tell.

 

[Mainoldo]

They have actually created a top of the notch structure around a good manager and thats what well run clubs clubs do. Stumbling upon a good manager is difficult but having a good structure around the club is good management. Even if the manager is worse, the structure helps alleviate bad buying policy to an extent. We have neither and hence we're in free fall. We have more chances of ending up with a Moyes level manager than a Fergie after Ole. So the priority right now is the structure.

So what’s happened to Swansea? West Bromwich even? Well run clubs not doing well..

 

[Mainoldo]

Or Chelsea and Leicester.

If only that was the majority aye!!

 

[He'sRaldo]

We didn't hear a lot because most of the stuff happened in the backend and silently , the way it should be. Even under Rodgers didn't they challenge for the league until slippy G happened? The way the club was run it was sooner or later they are going to come to top. We talk about them getting Klopp and become a great team, before he Joined Liverpool didn't Woodward talk to Klopp about United Job? Why wasn't he able to convince Klopp to manage us? Given our war chest it should have been a pretty easy thing to convince , no? So how do we know Ed could convince any other good manager when he doesn't have iota of football knowledge? That's where the need to a DOF comes into picture. If we Sack Ole before getting ina proper DOF, we're not going to get any good Managers as far as i can tell.

I think another factor would be both Pep and Klopp knew that the job came with massive pressure for very little gain, and thus were reluctant to accept.

They both haven't been known to work well with that kind of pressure.

 

[AshRK]

So what’s happened to Swansea? West Bromwich even? Well run clubs not doing well..

Who told you they are well run?

 

[dove]

Or Chelsea and Leicester.

I think you should make a thread about it, the one after Chelsea match went really well.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Manager is accountable , so are the players, so is the board. It's not one or the other. I don't know why some feel like that. Because I say we don't have an amazing squad doesn't mean Ole is doing a good job. No he is not, but to expect a new manager will come and make this squad to reach great heights is also wrong.

Eh ? The manager is clearly the more important person as he's supposed to get the most out of his squad. Doesn't like some ? Get rid of them. Nobody is saying the manager is the only thing requiring fixing. Have you peeked into the Lingard thread? The players are a problem too. But the manager is still accountable for his team and most importantly, for managing what he has well and building a cohesive unit.

Again nobody expects a manager to walk in and take this exact 20 players to the title. But we do, as we should, expect the team to be very well managed given, presumably, that our ambitions are in line with our resources and statute. And over time, of course, to challenge. But in the meantime, till we have that brilliant squad, the manager is NOT exempt from being accountable and producing. That was my point.

 

[Mainoldo]

Who told you they are well run?

Who told you Liverpool was?

 

[JPRouve]

We didn't hear a lot because most of the stuff happened in the backend and silently , the way it should be. Even under Rodgers didn't they challenge for the league until slippy G happened? The way the club was run it was sooner or later they are going to come to top. We talk about them getting Klopp and become a great team, before he Joined Liverpool didn't Woodward talk to Klopp about United Job? Why wasn't he able to convince Klopp to manage us? Given our war chest it should have been a pretty easy thing to convince , no? So how do we know Ed could convince any other good manager when he doesn't have iota of football knowledge? That's where the need to a DOF comes into picture. If we Sack Ole before getting ina proper DOF, we're not going to get any good Managers as far as i can tell.

While he had a contract with Dortmund no one did, he rejected everyone United as much as Real Madrid. Him joining Liverpool was as much about timing than anything else, they got rid of their manager while he was jobless.

 

[AshRK]

Eh ? The manager is clearly the more important person as he's supposed to get the most out of his squad. Doesn't like some ? Get rid of them. Nobody is saying the manager is the only thing requiring fixing. Have you peeked into the Lingard thread? The players are a problem too. But the manager is still accountable for his team and most importantly, for managing what he has well and building a cohesive unit.

Again nobody expects a manager to walk in and take this exact 20 players to the title. But we do, as we should, expect the team to be very well managed given, presumably, that our ambitions are in line with our resources and statute. And over time, of course, to challenge. But in the meantime, till we have that brilliant squad, the manager is NOT exempt from being accountable and producing.

I never said Ole is exempt but I have seen multiple posters saying a different manager will get more out of these players. Maybe somewhat more but after a time we will again be in the same position. Until we have a proper direction this club will go nowhere.

 

[AshRK]

Who told you Liverpool was?

They are definitely better run that us in recent years.

 

[Mainoldo]

They are definitely better run that us in recent years.

Why because they are above us? They brought zero first team players this summer. Messed up a VVD transfer, luckily no one else wanted him at the price Southampton wanted and kept a player who clearly wanted out to the point he was exaggerating back injuries.

What is so well run about them please? Infact I won’t beat around the bush.. they just hired a top class coach. I mean they could have stuck with Rodgers I’m sure they wouldn’t be where they are now.

 

[AshRK]

Why because they are above us? They brought zero first team players this summer. Messed up a VVD transfer, luckily no one else wanted him at the price Southampton wanted and kept a player who clearly wanted out to the point he was exaggerating back injuries.

What is so well run about them please? Infact I won’t beat around the bush.. they just hired a top class coach. I mean they could have stuck with Rodgers I’m sure they wouldn’t be where they are now.

I am not going to say they are the best run club or even one of the best. No, I think that is an overrated theme but their board know what they want from Klopp and how and when to back him. In our case we are a mess. If we were even somewhat run better we wouldn't have made some absurd decisions that we have made since sir alex retired. I would still say the biggest culprit has been Woodward. The fact that he praised the summer recruitment shows how much arrogance he has.

 

[JPRouve]

I am not going to say they are the best run club or even one of the best. No, I think that is an overrated theme but their board know what they want from Klopp and how and when to back him. In our case we are a mess. If we were even somewhat run better we wouldn't have made some absurd decisions that we have made since sir alex retired. I would still say the biggest culprit has been Woodward. The fact that he praised the summer recruitment shows how much arrogance he has.

Their board knew nothing before Klopp, you don't think that it's a strange coincidence?

 

[AshRK]

Their board knew nothing before Klopp, you don't think that it's a strange coincidence?

But then why did he chose them over us. There must have been something different that they were doing.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I never said Ole is exempt but I have seen multiple posters saying a different manager will get more out of these players. Maybe somewhat more but after a time we will again be in the same position. Until we have a proper direction this club will go nowhere.

They may be correct. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility that a superior manager could get more out of the same squad. It happens all the time.

Proper direction ? Agree. We have problems as a organisation too. But that doesn't mean you don't fix a big problem you do have becuase you have a few more too.

Personally I would keep Ole for a bit more time. But Im not fixated on this idea that manager must not change.

 

[JPRouve]

But then why did he chose them over us. There must have been something different that they were doing.

He didn't chose them over us.

 

[Halal Jalal]

I don't know what I'm supposed to be looking at. Ole has talked a big game about imposing an identity on us but we STILL look like 11 strangers who have not been given specific instructions. All we do is run a bit more.

Guys - Palace, Southampton, Astana, West Ham, Rochdale.

Take those five games and imagine we had Moyes, LVG or Jose in charge. The verdict would be a unanimous this manager is done, he needs to go.

The board are shit. The squad is shit. Neither of those things impact a manager's ability to be able to play something resembling Premier League football against a team 17th in League One. Inexcusable.

This is like the most boring moments of LVG and Jose combined, with the added baffling hopelessness vibe we got from Moyes. Listen to Ole's conference after the game, the dopey smile on his face, it's clear to me that this is a man out of ideas, out of his depth and out of patience with his players trying to plaster a smile over those feelings.




I was actually thinking last night after the game. I don't see the point in this club targeting young, progressive managers at this point - our midfield and attacking options are SO BAD that none of them would be able to impose a modern identity on us. All of them would struggle, not to Ole's level but struggle they would. We simply lack good attacking options, including midfielders.

As much as it pains me a bit to say, part of me looks at the following defence:

DDG, AWB, Maguire, Lindelöf/Axel, Shaw

And thinks our most realistic way back up the table is to: - hire a defensive mastermind like Allegri and give him £80m to spend on a world-class CDM like prime Kante. Aim to grind out 1-0, 2-0 victories until we're able to attract better attackers.

It'll be awful to watch but it might be our only hope. Play to our strengths - our strongest area of the pitch is sadly, our defence.

Agreed with everything you said there

 

[Leftback99]

Why because they are above us? They brought zero first team players this summer. Messed up a VVD transfer, luckily no one else wanted him at the price Southampton wanted and kept a player who clearly wanted out to the point he was exaggerating back injuries.

What is so well run about them please? Infact I won’t beat around the bush.. they just hired a top class coach. I mean they could have stuck with Rodgers I’m sure they wouldn’t be where they are now.

Worth a read:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/magazine/soccer-data-liverpool.html

 

[AshRK]

He didn't chose them over us.

But didn't Woodward approach him and Klopp refused to join us?

 

[Mainoldo]

I am not going to say they are the best run club or even one of the best. No, I think that is an overrated theme but their board know what they want from Klopp and how and when to back him. In our case we are a mess. If we were even somewhat run better we wouldn't have made some absurd decisions that we have made since sir alex retired. I would still say the biggest culprit has been Woodward. The fact that he praised the summer recruitment shows how much arrogance he has.

Did you miss the bit where I said they failed to get him his CB? After his first summer he had to put James Milner at LB because they failed to get him a LB. he had to then wait another full season to get Keita because of funds. They didn’t find him a striker... thank god he brought Salah and Found a position for Firmino. I mean what is so different? I’ll repeat one manager is doing a good job the other isn’t. As a Liverpool fan i couldn’t be just as p’d with the board if Klopp was failing.

 

[Strelok]

I genuinely think Ole is just trying to survive the season, and can't wait to continue his clearout of players. That's probably why some of his press conferences are so cliche with regards to those players. I reckon he's already binned them in his head (as we all have) and they probably know it.

IMO he'll survive the season and I can't wait to see those gone.

I see a lot of posters here talking about "coaching" Rashford to finish or Matic to pass, it's not that easy guys. If it's that easy every player gonna be top with coaching and no club would have to pay 100 - 200 £m for some player. For example what kind of coaching do you think is needed for Lukaku to have a normal first touch ?

And for the 1-2 pass, it's also not as easy as it seems if you ever play football. It's much more difficult to do in attacking as both you/ your teammates are usually marked, very little space and very little time allowed as things happen really fast. It requires players with great passing and movement ability to be effective, they also have to understand each a lot as well. Fact is very few teams in the world are capable of doing the 1-2 pass effectively regularily when attacking. We were one of those under SAF, especially with the Cole - York duo.

For the FB overlapping disappeared issue and also the change from 433 to 4231:

- FB overlapping: we saw this a lot in the first few months under Ole, why it disappeared now ? IMO it's because of Matic. In that time we play 433 with Matic as a holding DM and he usually formed a back 3 with the two CBs allowing the FBs to go forward without worrying too much about their defensive duty. Now his legs are gone and we have no one capable of playing such role.

- 433 to 4231: same reason as above, we lost our only true DM (even he's still here) and especially Herrera. Herrera and Matic allowed us to have the balance between attack and defense. They also were capable of covering for the defense while we're attacked or counter attacked. Now both gone and Ole play 3 CM there to compensate that.

We play 4231 without any real DM but actually 2 CM a bit lower than the CM upfront but anyone of those 3 could make a run into the opponent box if there's an opportunity. I wouldn't call Lingard an AM since he usually performes a lot of CM duties.

So IMO what we really need now is not a RW, striker or AM but a world class holding DM. IMO defense is the shield, attack is the sword but the one who wield both is the mid. If you suck then given how good your shield or your sword is you still suck. The mid gives the team the energy, balance between defense/attack and creativity.

Not signing one in the summer is a tremendous mistake but IDK this is on Ole or Ed to blame.

 

[JPRouve]

But didn't Woodward approach him and Klopp refused to join us?

We approached him in 2014 when he had a job with Dortmund but chose to stay. Liverpool approached him in October 2015 when he didn't had a job. He never chose Liverpool over United but if you want to frame it negatively for United, he chose Dortmund over us and many other clubs.

 

[AshRK]

Did you miss the bit where I said they failed to get him his CB? After his first summer he had to put James Milner at LB because they failed to get him a LB. he had to then wait another full season to get Keita because of funds. They didn’t find him a striker... thank god he brought Salah and Found a position for Firmino. I mean what is so different? I’ll repeat one manager is doing a good job the other isn’t. As a Liverpool fan i couldn’t be just as p’d with the board if Klopp was failing.

I don't know what your point is? Are you saying our board is doing a good job?

 

[JPRouve]

I don't know what your points is? Are you saying our board is doing a good job?

No, he is showing that Liverpool weren't better run but their manager still did a great job with what he had.

 

[Mainoldo]

Worth a read:https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/magazine/soccer-data-liverpool.html

I’ve heard about it before. There’s also a fancy machine at Dortmund that improves players awareness and touch. When you are successful on the pitch all these little ideas and plans look amazing. Right about now there’s people at United doing great theory work on this ‘long term’ vision. It will mean jack squid if we are still performing crap.