What did he get wrong tactically tonight?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Two wins in a week and two more of our better players committing their long term future to the club. And people are taking cuts at Ole....
Pure hyperbole there. LVG played youth at full-back & up-front. The spine of the team was still experienced. Compared to tonight with our spine being made up of youth and experienced players playing their first minutes of the season, that makes a world of difference. We still dominated and won the match let's not forget that.
They'd rather be right than their team be successful. Pretty sad and pathetic in equal measure if I'm being honest...
Good points but the main difference between what SAF did and would still do if he could is 'time'. He had transition periods ( albeit we won trophies in those periods too) all along his career and was given time and patience to build teams. None of the managers in this era will be given that amount of time. And i agree this 'united way' is a lazy term to combat other 'ways' of football.
Not be the latest flavour of the month manager, methinks...
It's really strange. You would think people would get behind the guy starting a team full of youth in an important European match (which we also dominated and won) but i guess not...
Why not do some due diligence and gave that same game time breakdown of analysis for the players that played tonight. All good spinning things to make them look good telling me how much games Depay played. How many has Tuazebe played at CB for Aston Villa?
I only have one post left but it’s nearly midnight so I’ll waste it replying to your numb-nutted post: What a load of mindless nonsense.
Tactics had ZERO to do with the fact that we didn’t win 4-0, as we might have. The tactics were, in fact, appropriate to the match. This was another game that showed Ole is tactically fine, aware of his players abilities and is doing a good job of developing (and transitioning) the squad whilst still getting decent results.
Looking forward to the detailed tactical response.
If only we had Cook, Rico and Ryan Fraser.
If we had those 3 I'm sure they'd get starts.
We were playing Astana at Old Trafford in the opening Europe League group match.
Completely, and if anything can be said for Ole so far, it's that his summer signings have near unanimously been a perfect balance between instant quality and future potential... However it continues to worry me how he still hasn't managed to instil any kind of attacking style or discernable identity in almost 10 months on the job, despite the idea of a greater attacking ethos being one of the central things championed as a benefit of his appointment! What is it we're actually doing as an attacking side? Sure, transition requires patience, but after 10 months it's not unreasonable to expect at least a modicum of progress on that front... Isn't it?
For some reason people like to bring up how Klopp took 3+ years to make Liverpool successful, bit that isn't really true, is it?... He got them to the Europa League final within 6 months of his appointment, and did so by playing in an obvious and noticeable beta-version of his intended eventual style... They came back from 1-3 down to beat Dortmund 4-3 in the semi that year, in a pre-cursor to the kind of comeback they'd enact against Barca last season... And they showed noticeable improvements in every subsequent season. And yet apparently it's ridiculous for us to expect any kind of tangible improvement from our squad, who finished above Liverpool a mere 18 months ago, in near 10 months of Ole's reign?.... Really?.... Really?....Come on now.... Really?
That makes it an important game.
Well no it wasn't, especially in such a crap group. We lost the opening match in our last EL campaign that we won by the way.
Im guessing you saw the Arsenal game then?
Im guessing Frankfurt didn't play in a low, defensive block at home v Arsenal reserves giving them having more space to work in but im sure your Google search can throw up such answers.
Sometimes the opposition just makes the game shit. You're drawing a false equivalency here.
Pretty obvious Ole will be gone sooner rather than later.
Some people just moaners it makes them happy
Define sooner and later as this could mean anything
We absolutely dominated the game. Should have been 3-4 nil. That’s not on Ole, it’s on poor finishing.
Harsh but fair. As I posted in the post match thread, the worst thing about our recent performances has been that they’re just so similar. We’re somehow reproducing the infamous zombie football of end stage Fergie and low points under every manager since.
I’m desperately hoping for any kind of a hint of something different to what I’ve seen before. Any kind of change in approach will do. I’m a positive guy. If I see something different I’ll use that to fuel my optimism. But it’s all just so... samey...
Both Klopp and Pep changed things so radically their teams dropped loads of stupid points in their first half season in charge. I’d accept that if you could see a similar radical overhaul underway. What fecking kills me is points being dropped in the exact same way we’ve seen again and again and again in recent seasons.
Pretty much. We can't be dissatisfied with a 2-1 loss to Palace at home, or 1-1 draw to a rubbish Southampton and failure to look significantly better than FC Astana from Narnia. We're the same set who weren't shy about criticising the lack of style under Mourinho and, all of sudden, we're content with the same lackluster football under a different manager because "the greatest manager of all time also once lost a game".
Question is what happened to the first few games under Ole? I mean, how can a honeymoon period, alone, result in 12 goals in 3 games? I don't buy it. We actually played some delightful football across 270 minutes and played some decent stuff sporadically until March. I don't see any of it in recent (footballing) months.
He's not utilizing the players the same way.
That's exactly the point though. I believe when Ole speaks about the United way he's not talking about a style of play but a mentality and a ethos. It's about working hard and respecting the traditions of the club. It's about building continuity through buying young players that can play here for a long time instead of chasing quick fixes. And it's about bringing good characters who will play for the shirt.
Everyone is moaning that we don't have this singular identifiable style of football yet but I don't think that's what Ole is trying to do at all. He wants us to be flexible. Other than want them to play at a high tempo and attack I see no effort to lock us into any default system. He's trying to improve how we play in all phases of the game and not just be reliant on one style. He wants us to be able to counter attack and break down teams that sit. And he wants us to be able to defend and stop conceding so many goals.
So far, the defense is better. We are also pretty good at counter attacking. Both of those things are a reflection on the types of players we have. As is the fact that we need work against teams that sit back. Ole recognises this too, hence his attempts to sign Dybala and Erikseen this summer. But they didn't sign and we have to make do with what we have for now. At least we managed to remove a lot of the problem characters that were holding back the squad.
Right now we have a very poor group of midfielders. We need a right sided attacker. Most of our attackers are very young with a lot to learn. My expectation would be to see gradual improvements in these players and our patterns and style of play as the season goes on. I think we will get decent results and finish top 4. I'd consider that a successful season. If we can improve the crop of young players we have and get them playing some consistent football we'd be in a great position to build with 3-4 more well thought out signings.
Add a deep lying midfielder with a good range of passing and say a couple of players like Maddison and Sancho and we'd have the makings of a terrific side imo. Maybe with patience the attackers are already here even? Martial, with James, Gomes and Greenwood behind might look very tasty in another year. I certainly like the sound of that. I believe Ole is being forced to work on a small budget but has a very clear plan on what the next couple of season should look like. Going on the 3 very shrewd and well thought out signings he's made so far he at least deserves the benefit of the doubt in that regard.
I’m not being funny but I’m not going to take your defensive block from
Whoever that team we played today serious. I mean I could get a decent level of players to come up against United and tell everyone to just sit but I’d still expect to get battered. Your talking like they had 8 players on the goal line.
We’re United fans we watch football but really... we only watch United. Thank you for educating some fans on what actually happened at Liverpool you’d think they just seen league positions and painted their own picture. But yet they can’t paint the picture that 18 months ago we was second!!!
To be fair most of the points we've dropped have been from missing penalties, poor refereeing and De Gea/Lindelof dropping clangers. Not sure that can really be placed at Ole's feet. Without being amazing we've done enough to win every game. That in itself is a clear improvement because we haven't been doing that. Take the infamous xg for example. Our xg from every game has suggested we should have won every game by at least a goal. That certainly wasn't the case last season. It's a young team and a weak squad. Gradual progression is as much as we can realistically ask for and I think we're getting it.
Precisely! There'd be significantly less grumbling over our dropped points had they genuinely been the product of a noticeably out of shape, well meaning but incohesive attacking unit, still trying to get used to complicated new tactics, such as - as you say - Pepe and Klopps early sides quite clearly were... But the fact there's been absolutely no discernible improvement in style, plan, cohesion, attitude, focus, risk taking, chance creation or motivation (the worst thing about the Wolves and Soton games was how pathetically we ended them, in an almost lazy defeatist acceptance of a point) is not simply some blase reactionary attitude.. It's a legitimate concern IMO.
I just don’t see it in him. A top manager or a future world class manager has that it factor. With Ole..I don’t see it. His transfer has been great so far, but his footballing philosophy isn’t what United should aim for. Maybe it will grow on me, but no doubt I prefer managers that aren’t so reactive.
Did not get to see the game but another game where we only score 1 goal. It’s 5 in a row now and I don’t think it is a coincidence...
I just don't think we are good enough yet to blow these teams away from home late in games. We haven't been for years. I don't believe it's an attitude thing. It's just a group of young players with fairly fragile confidence trying to get themselves up to the standard. In a couple of years Rashford probably gets on the end of a couple of those Dan James crosses against Southampton. That's my take on it.
This highly fashionable idea that a manager must come in with a his own revolutionary tactical approach every time doesn't really make sense to me either. Pep took over a very good squad and still ended up having to change the whole thing before winning anything. It took Klopp 3 years to build that Liverpool squad to the stage where they weren't shit as well. If Ole spends as well in the next couple of windows as he has so far we will become a good team without having to reinvent football.
That was a very youthful team selection from Ole and Greenwood delivered for him. Out of the starting 11 only Rashford and Matic had gotten any minutes for us in the games till now. We cannot expect players who haven't played together to suddenly click and perform. Still we created chances to score atleast 3 goals. Take the 3 points and move on
Which players do people expect loads of goals and slick attacking play to come from?
If we a had a Guardiola or a Klopp do people think Rashford would suddenly become prolific? Would Mata be able to run? Martial not be injured all the time? There's really not a lot to work with.
If we a had a Guardiola or a Klopp do people think Rashford would suddenly become prolific? Would Mata be able to run? Martial not be injured all the time? There's really not a lot to work with.
We should have been up by 2-3 goals at half time, that Rashford was unlucky or poor enough (choose whichever you want) to miss some of his chances can't be put on Ole. We fielded 9 players who haven't started a game this season, many of them very young. So don't expect too much.
When Ole first came in, he played a higher defensive line, very proactive defenders, wide strikers instead of touchline wingers, Pogba as an attacking central mid, a more balanced midfield 3, etc.
I don't know why he's changed all of that, especially the Pogba part. You can't be having your match winners play so deep and/ or wide, it's illogical. Get them where they can do damage in the half-spaces and the central areas high up, let the limited players sweep up for them.
I don't think the results will improve much until he starts getting the best out of our best players starting with the formation, and right now it's not really happening.
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re: Pogba the only thing I can think (or hope) is he played him deep because he doesn't want to play Matic there, and Fred wasn't ready. I really hope with Fred back now he'll revert to Pogba further forward.
Again, it's been 10 months... 10!... that's not an unreasonable amount of time to expect to see some notable improvements. You bring up Pep's lack of success in his inaugural season, when much like Klopp, it obfuscates the reality that everyone could see the noticeable change in City's play, and how their defeats that seasons were largely due to their inability (specifically defensively) to adapt to his demands instantly... Much like how Liverpool's first 10 months under Klopp saw them lose or draw a number of games by virtue of their newly high intensive attacking ethos leaving them naively open at the back... If we were dropping points because of things like this, it'd be entirely understandable, and significantly fewer people would have issue with Ole... But we're not. We're dropping points because we dont seem to have any attacking plan, and create incredibly few chances.
And you're misinterpreting my point about Fergie having "no discernable style"... All of his successful teams very much did have a style, and they largely stuck to it - the occasional cluth match or Euro away aside - but they were noticeably different from the styles of his earlier sides, is what I mean... Because unlike Pep or Klopp (who have very entrenched ideologies, that they'll likely never lose) Fergie was happy to adapt his outlook to suit the era he was competing in... And if he was still in charge now, he'd likely try and find a way of either adapting to, or ingeniously defeating, the current prevailing trend of high pressing possession play... And he certainly wouldn't try and counter it by reverting to an earlier, slightly outdated style he was once successful with decades earlier... because that would go against pretty much everything he'd build his legacy on!
Which is precisely why I worry about Ole's unwavering belief in the inevitable success of this type of football, being uncomfortably close to the kind of Mike Bassett-esque 4-4-2 mentality.... Thought obviously, I hope I'm spectacularly wrong!
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Even then, it would be better to play Lingard/ Pereira in a 3 with Pogba, so they can sweep up for him instead of having him sweep up for them. The 4-2-3-1 with Pogba at the base just makes no sense to me.
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