Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Vissy]

Looks like almost nobody actually read what I wrote. Zidane literally isn't a good coach. He doesn't coach his players personally, and the tactics he employs are not excellent. His teams don't even tend to perform well consistently. What he is excellent at is man management, and given the gamut of galacticos at RM, the most you really have to do to get them performing is keeping them happy.

This is something Zidane has managed to do better than anyone. Still, he often looks like tactically he doesn't know what he's doing and has suffered for it in La Liga. He can't set up a defence if his life depended on it. It will not work in any other club than Real Madrid.

 

[Saffron]

Klopp was a striker and then late in his career moved to defense as per wiki.

Fair enough but he apparently had the football intelligence to play as a defender as well. Not sure you could say the same thing about most attackers.

Klopp’s intelligence and football intelligence is off the charts and he was an active student of the game already as a player. He wasn’t just a striker who retired and suddenly decided to try his hand at coaching like Henry.

 

[roonster09]

Fair enough but he apparently had the football intelligence to play as a defender as well. Not sure you could say the same thing about most attackers.

Klopp’s intelligence and football intelligence is off the charts and he was an active student of the game already as a player. He wasn’t just a striker who retired and suddenly decided to try his hand at coaching like Henry.

Maybe if they played in German second division.

 

[Saffron]

There’s a long established trend of most players not being strikers. So why would the ratio be any different amongst managers?

Almost every succesful manager was a central midfielder or central defender: They weren’t wingers, specialist full backs or goalkeepers.

That means almost all of them come from a possible 4 positions out of 11 on the pitch. The positions that just so happens to require the greatest football intelligence.

 

[wolvored]

What would Ramos and Ronaldo know about how Madrid should play better than Zidane? Nothing.

Zidane’s role on the pitch as a player required a substantial tactical understanding of the game. There’s a reason almost every single successful manager was a midfielder or defender, not a tap-in merchant.

Guardiola, Klopp, Pochettino, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Diego Simeone, Conte. None were attackers.

Honestly struggle to think of a single successful manager in the modern era who was an attacker. We saw how well Henry did, and he still had way more football intelligence than most forwards.

Fergie?

 

[Rendezvous with Ronaldo]

Almost every succesful manager was a central midfielder or central defender: They weren’t wingers, specialist full backs or goalkeepers.

That means almost all of them come from a possible 4 positions out of 11 on the pitch. The positions that just so happens to require the greatest football intelligence.

Jupp Heynckes was a striker.

 

[Shark]

You think it's Woodward's work that got them to join Manchester United? Anyone could sit there and convince these players to join Manchester United while earning 200k a week.

Did we sign all of these players on 200k a week?

 

[roonster09]

Almost every succesful manager was a central midfielder or central defender: They weren’t wingers, specialist full backs or goalkeepers.

That means almost all of them come from a possible 4 positions out of 11 on the pitch. The positions that just so happens to require the greatest football intelligence.

Michels, Johan Cruyff, Sir Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough are all attackers.

 

[georgipep]

Some people are just stupid, no other explanation.

So, replacing Rijkaard (CL winner) with an unproven, young Guardiola was a stupid idea?

I'm not saying Ole will win 3 CLs or anything, just think that he might prove himself more astute of a manager than many here believe he is

 

[Saffron]

Michels, Johan Cruyff, Sir Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough are all attackers.

Why do you keep ignoring my initial stipulation that I was talking about the modern game? You’ve just cited 3 dead managers, one of which could play as a midfielder at a high level. The last one is retired since 6 years and was a one-off genius who has defied logic plenty of times through his sheer brilliance.

 

[Steven-UK]

Zidane was handed a gold plated, world class football team on a diamond-encrusted platter.

Ole has been handed a bag of rusted tools, and a tin of WD40.

 

[roonster09]

Why do you keep ignoring my initial stipulation that I was talking about the modern game? You’ve just cited 3 dead managers, one of which could play as a midfielder at a high level. The last one is retired since 6 years and was a one-off genius.

I named one when you talked about modern game and the next post didnt look like you were talking about modern game.

 

[TRUERED89]

Michels, Johan Cruyff, Sir Alex Ferguson, Brian Clough are all attackers.

Kenny Dalglish? Not a great obviously but won the PL managing Blackburn and was an attacker!

 

[roonster09]

Kenny Dalglish? Not a great obviously but won the PL managing Blackburn and was an attacker!

Mancini too, won PL, Serie A and also cups before joining Inter.

 

[TRUERED89]

Mancini too, won PL, Serie A and also cups before joining Inter.

Exactly, football intelligence isn't just attributed to midfielders and defenders, as an attacker/striker you've got the most pressure on you to perform, these guys generally have to be just as intelligent as anyone else on the pitch. No dumb ass players will last at big clubs so for me it doesn't matter what position you played, if you understand the game, can motivate/man manage and be a true leader your position is irrelevant in terms of being a good manager.

 

[Saffron]

Mancini too, won PL, Serie A and also cups before joining Inter.

I think this is the first valid example that fit the ’modern’ criteria I clearly laid out. Really didn’t think I would need to explicitly repeat it in every post.

Still, the trend is definitely there.

Football has moved on from the 80’s and 90’s and we need to stop looking at what worked then. We’re living enough in the past as it is.

I understand it can be hard to accept that a newbie might present a perspective you hadn’t necessarily thought of, but please stop moving the goalposts to align with your existing beliefs.

 

[haram]

Did we sign all of these players on 200k a week?

Did the biggest club in England offer them cash few others could match? It has nothing to do with Woodward.

 

[fallengt]

So, replacing Rijkaard (CL winner) with an unproven, young Guardiola was a stupid idea?

I'm not saying Ole will win 3 CLs or anything, just think that he might prove himself more astute of a manager than many here believe he is

Yes, it was. Statistically
Your mind only sees the one time it worked but ignores the other hundred times it failed.

Also it wasn't stroke of genius from Laporta. Guardiola wasn't even first choice.

 

[roonster09]

I think this is the first valid example that fit the ’modern’ criteria I clearly laid out. Really didn’t think I would need to explicitly repeat it in every post.

Still, the trend is definitely there.

Football has moved on from the 80’s and 90’s and we need to stop looking at what worked then. We’re living enough in the past as it is.

So you are saying we have to shortlist the managers based on their playing position?

 

[roonster09]

Exactly, football intelligence isn't just attributed to midfielders and defenders, as an attacker/striker you've got the most pressure on you to perform, these guys generally have to be just as intelligent as anyone else on the pitch. No dumb ass players will last at big clubs so for me it doesn't matter what position you played, if you understand the game, can motivate/man manage and be a true leader your position is irrelevant in terms of being a good manager.

Exactly. There is certain trend with most successful managers being midfielders but it means nothing, it all depends on individuals.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I cant think of many foreign players that stayed longer than about 5/6 years, all our true long-stayers were British..

Not sure you can compare the likes of Scholes, Neville etc with the hangers-on we have now.

 

[TRUERED89]

Not sure you can compare the likes of Scholes, Neville etc with the hangers-on we have now.

Nope no comparison whatsoever, I just feel like talented/world class British players will stay their whole career, as opposed to imports that just wont, they'll either retire early or leave for the big 2 in Spain..

 

[matt10000]

Look, if all you can come up with is the one-off genius that retired 6 years ago and Mark Hughes, I think that’s the exception that proves the rule.

There’s definitely a trend of most successful managers in the modern era not being attackers.

And I do think delineating it to the modern era is valid, because it’s in the modern era we want success. We’re living enough in the past as it is.

Well by 'delineating' it to the modern era is convenient as it then ignores the fact that the two most successful British managers of all time were strikers - SAF and Brian Clough!

 

[Saffron]

So you are saying we have to shortlist the managers based on their playing position?

Or maybe not draw constant parallels between Ole and Guardiola/Zidane like many have done for months now. Zidane and Guardiola are world legends for playing in positions that require excellent football intelligence. Ole is a club legend for being a poacher.

Henry is on record saying that when he got Guardiola as coach late in his career, it was like ”learning to play football again”.

And that’s in 2008 when Guardiola didn’t have a decade of top flight coaching experience like he does now. He reviolutized football drawing simply on his incredible football intelligence as a midfielder.

Edit: since my newbie posts are up, I’ll have to reply to the post below here and call it a day.

Not sure which is more stupid, constant comparison of Ole's route with Zidane/Pep or narrowing down "footaball intelligence" to one position.

Last year CL winner Klopp was a forward all his career except last few season.
Before that 3 CL winners was Zidane who was attacking mid than CM
Before that CL winner was Luis Enrique who played as both attacker and midfielder
Before that CL winner was Jupp Heynckes who was a forward.

The coaches who revolutionized the game with total football were both attackers.

You are taking Pep and trying to build a narrative. Scholes was way better midfielder and intelligent player but it didn't work out for him. There are many midfielders who had football intelligence who didn't do much in management. Football management is more than just 'Football Intelligence'.

I think you are straw manning it a bit too much for me right now, so let me just lay down a list of the current top managers. The ones decent clubs might want to hire right now.

Tier 1 managers:
Guardiola: Central midfielder.
Pochettino: Central defender.
Zidane: Central midfielder.
Klopp: Central defender/attacker.
Allegri: Central midfielder.
Conte: Central midfielder.
Simeone: Central midfielder.
Thomas Tuchel: Central midfielder.
Carlo Ancelotti: Central midfielder.

Tier 2 managers:
Unai Emery: Central midfielder.
Maurizio Sarri: Central defender.
Jose Mourinho: Central midfielder.
Didier Deschamps: Central midfielder.
Lucien Favre: Central midfielder.
Marco Rose: Central defender.
Erik ten Hag: Central defender.

So one half of an attacker in this list.

(This was my honest attempt at listing all tier 1 and 2 managers right now with Pep, Klopp and Poch obviously being in a class of their own. I genuinely did not exclude anyone because he didn’t fit ”the narrative”. Might have forgot someone, however.)

 

[roonster09]

Or maybe not draw constant parallels between Ole and Guardiola/Zidane like many have done for months now. Zidane and Guardiola are world legends for playing in positions that require excellent football intelligence. Ole is a club legend for being a poacher.

Henry is on record saying that when he got Guardiola as coach late in his career, it was like ”learning to play football again”.

And that’s in 2008 when Guardiola didn’t have a decade of top flight coaching experience like he does now. He reviolutized football drawing simply on his incredible football intelligence as a midfielder.

Not sure which is more stupid, constant comparison of Ole's route with Zidane/Pep or narrowing down "footaball intelligence" to one position.

Last year CL winner Klopp was a forward all his career except last few season.
Before that 3 CL winners was Zidane who was attacking mid than CM
Before that CL winner was Luis Enrique who played as both attacker and midfielder
Before that CL winner was Jupp Heynckes who was a forward.

The coaches who revolutionized the game with total football were both attackers.

You are taking Pep and trying to build a narrative. Scholes was way better midfielder and intelligent player but it didn't work out for him. There are many midfielders who had football intelligence who didn't do much in management. Football management is more than just 'Football Intelligence'.

 

[dove]

So, replacing Rijkaard (CL winner) with an unproven, young Guardiola was a stupid idea?

I'm not saying Ole will win 3 CLs or anything, just think that he might prove himself more astute of a manager than many here believe he is

Constant comparisons with Pep really annoys me. Firstly, it is extremely rare that it works, we should stop desperately looking for parallels with something that happens once in a million times. Secondly, clubs like Real, Barca, Bayern and Juve nowadays can take a risk with appointing lesser known or young managers as the absolute worst that can happen is them finishing 2nd, or if the season is absolutely disastrous then 3rd. Hardly any damage done. Sack the manager and try again. Meanwhile we are fecked because a bad season for us is finishing 6th and missing out on CL which not only damages our reputation, chances to attract top top players but also unsettles many players who feel they are too big to play in EL. Ole might turn it around no one knows but comparing him with Zidane, Pep or Klopp at this point is an insult to these 3.

 

[momo83]

So, replacing Rijkaard (CL winner) with an unproven, young Guardiola was a stupid idea?

I'm not saying Ole will win 3 CLs or anything, just think that he might prove himself more astute of a manager than many here believe he is

Ole’s been in management for about 10 years. He’s the same age group as Pep so 10 years ago he would have been a new young manager, just like Pep when he started. To now call Ole Young and New is bull

So if after 10 years in management you yourself still class Ole as “unproven” what does that tell you about him? Bearing in mind he has managed in the premier league before.

 

[soaphroniscuss]

I think this is the first valid example that fit the ’modern’ criteria I clearly laid out. Really didn’t think I would need to explicitly repeat it in every post.

Still, the trend is definitely there.

Football has moved on from the 80’s and 90’s and we need to stop looking at what worked then. We’re living enough in the past as it is.

I understand it can be hard to accept that a newbie might present a perspective you hadn’t necessarily thought of, but please stop moving the goalposts to align with your existing beliefs.

Hopefully that's just self-effacing jest. What on Earth has being a "newbie" got to do with anything?

 

[matt10000]

Not sure which is more stupid, constant comparison of Ole's route with Zidane/Pep or narrowing down "footaball intelligence" to one position.

Last year CL winner Klopp was a forward all his career except last few season.
Before that 3 CL winners was Zidane who was attacking mid than CM
Before that CL winner was Luis Enrique who played as both attacker and midfielder
Before that CL winner was Jupp Heynckes who was a forward.

The coaches who revolutionized the game with total football were both attackers.

You are taking Pep and trying to build a narrative. Scholes was way better midfielder and intelligent player but it didn't work out for him. There are many midfielders who had football intelligence who didn't do much in management. Football management is more than just 'Football Intelligence'.

Football management is more than just Football Intelligence. Creating an atmosphere of confidence, self belief, willingness to play for the team is probably the most important factor. The greatest managers were able to do this. SAF was a genius at this and employed help with the football intelligence side when he wanted it (carlos queroz was employed to help approach to Champions League). If you have a great football brain and not able to do the above then you will fail. If you can do the above and employ help with football intelligence then you can do the job. If you can do both even better.

 

[roonster09]

I think you are straw manning it a bit too much for me right now, so let me just lay down a list of the current top managers. The ones decent clubs might want to hire right now.

Tier 1 managers:
Guardiola: Central midfielder.
Pochettino: Central defender.
Zidane: Central midfielder.
Klopp: Central defender/attacker.
Allegri: Central midfielder.
Conte: Central midfielder.
Simeone: Central midfielder.
Thomas Tuchel: Central midfielder.
Carlo Ancelotti: Central midfielder.

Tier 2 managers:
Unai Emery: Central midfielder.
Maurizio Sarri: Central defender.
Jose Mourinho: Central midfielder.
Didier Deschamps: Central midfielder.
Lucien Favre: Central midfielder.
Marco Rose: Central defender.
Erik ten Hag: Central defender.

So one half of an attacker in this list.

(This was my honest attempt at listing all tier 1 and 2 managers right now with Pep, Klopp and Poch obviously being in a class of their own. I genuinely did not exclude anyone because he didn’t fit ”the narrative”. Might have forgot someone, however.)

Talk about straw man and moving goal posts when the initial post was

Honestly struggle to think of a single successful manager in the modern era who was an attacker. and Almost every succesful manager was a central midfielder or central defender:

Last CL winners are Klopp, Zidane, Luis Enrique, Jupp Heynckes who all played as attackers/attacking mids. Now posting managers who are successful and played as CM means nothing as that's not the point. It's your initial point and your other post about "Football Intelligence" which is just nonsense.

If you said successful managers who played as CM/CB > Successful managers who played as attackers then yes as we can see the numbers. When you come up with "I don't think any attacker is a success in modern game" then it's just nonsense.

 

[roonster09]

Football management is more than just Football Intelligence. Creating an atmosphere of confidence, self belief, willingness to play for the team is probably the most important factor. The greatest managers were able to do this. SAF was a genius at this and employed help with the football intelligence side when he wanted it (carlos queroz was employed to help approach to Champions League). If you have a great football brain and not able to do the above then you will fail. If you can do the above and employ help with football intelligence then you can do the job. If you can do both even better.

Exactly. Football intelligence is part of it and there is so more more to football management. Also teaching what you know and implementing is also biggest challenge.

 

[roonster09]

I understand it can be hard to accept that a newbie might present a perspective you hadn’t necessarily thought of, but please stop moving the goalposts to align with your existing beliefs.

 

[Eriku]

Yes the fecking Molde manager is better than someone who won the CL 3 times in a row

Some years ago you could’ve said "sure, someone who’s only managed RM Castilla is better than the guy who made Molde win their first league gold ever".

Both ways of arguing are stupid.

And obviously I reckon Ole would do better with the Real team, they had quality at every position when Zizou did his CL hattrick. You can’t compare their situations.

 

[momo83]

Some years ago you could’ve said "sure, someone who’s only managed RM Castilla is better than the guy who made Molde win their first league gold ever".

Both ways of arguing are stupid.

And obviously I reckon Ole would do better with the Real team, they had quality at every position when Zizou did his CL hattrick. You can’t compare their situations.

Actually some years ago “who knows” would have been the wise thing. One had already been in management for several years, including a stint the EPL, and the other was stepping into his first senior management role where the “Pep” comparison that people falsely make with Ole would have been a genuine and fair comparison to make.

 

[carvajal]

Transfer ambassador? In his first spell they rarely made any transfers. @carvajal?

Also if you don’t think he’s a proper manager then God knows who you think is one.

no, not many, and I do not think he would agree to bring Ceballos or Theo.
In the signings of Brazilians he does not intervene. It is Calafat, the head of south american football, who I imagine would use Roberto Carlos and Ronaldo, for some meeting.

 

[Eriku]

Actually some years ago “who knows” would have been the wise thing. One had already been in management for several years, including a stint the EPL, and the other was stepping into his first senior management role where the “Pep” comparison that people falsely make with Ole would have been a genuine and fair comparison to make.

The Pep comparison only means to highlight that Ole is less of a long-shot, and Pep stepped into a gig that was far more set for success. Much like Zidane. Ole is asked to achieve greatness on a budget, for a team languishing after an ill-conceived hand-over which wound up gutting our institutional memory, saw an exodus of experienced winners and leaders, and has since been playing catch up by «backing» successors with a pedigree.

People are being far too harsh on Ole, because like the class of 92, Vidic, Rio, Rooney, etc., he has been a part of a squad that Fergie imbued his winning mentality to. I want to give him a chance, there’s a lot to be gained from certain basics about the work mentality required to win in football, and Ole knows it.

 

[Enigma_87]

So, replacing Rijkaard (CL winner) with an unproven, young Guardiola was a stupid idea?

I'm not saying Ole will win 3 CLs or anything, just think that he might prove himself more astute of a manager than many here believe he is

For the umpteenth time there's absolutely no correlation between Ole and Pep.

1. Pep spent coaching 1 years in the reserves, Ole 3.
2. Pep's first stint was Barca where he won the league right away. Ole managed in Norway and not a single top team approached him for what is 10 years spent in management.
3. Pep has clear style of possession, tiki taka based football that is widely known from his first year in management. Ole's style is pashun, running and counter attacking? Literally what thousands of managers can claim.
4. Pep was understudy of Cruyff and developed most of his ideas and was closely working with him from the off, asking advice. Ole is working with Phelan.
5. Barcelona have proper structure that was developed by Cruyff since the 90's. We don't even have a DoF.
6. Pep inherited a fantastic team and fantastic young core, some of who he has worked the year prior, Ole was managing the reserves 10 years ago, with our academy and reserves currently in shambles thanks to Butt and Sbragia.
7. La Liga at the time and during Pep's reign was pretty much 2 horse race (before Simeone emerging). EPL is highly competitive for the 4th place with 5-6 teams genuinely having a shot at it, let alone us challenging for the title.
8. Barcelona's transfer strategy was also well in place, whilst ours is led by a muppet.

Should I go on?

 

[Leif GW]

Guardiola isn't a 'world legend' as a player, that's silly. He was a very good player, but not a true great.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

For the umpteenth time there's absolutely no correlation between Ole and Pep.

1. Pep spent coaching 1 years in the reserves, Ole 3.
2. Pep's first stint was Barca where he won the league right away. Ole managed in Norway and not a single top team approached him for what is 10 years spent in management.
3. Pep has clear style of possession, tiki taka based football that is widely known from his first year in management. Ole's style is pashun, running and counter attacking? Literally what thousands of managers can claim.
4. Pep was understudy of Cruyff and developed most of his ideas and was closely working with him from the off, asking advice. Ole is working with Phelan.
5. Barcelona have proper structure that was developed by Cruyff since the 90's. We don't even have a DoF.
6. Pep inherited a fantastic team and fantastic young core, some of who he has worked the year prior, Ole was managing the reserves 10 years ago, with our academy and reserves currently in shambles thanks to Butt and Sbragia.
7. La Liga at the time and during Pep's reign was pretty much 2 horse race (before Simeone emerging). EPL is highly competitive for the 4th place with 5-6 teams genuinely having a shot at it, let alone us challenging for the title.
8. Barcelona's transfer strategy was also well in place, whilst ours is led by a muppet.

Should I go on?

Good post.

 

[fallengt]

Some years ago you could’ve said "sure, someone who’s only managed RM Castilla is better than the guy who made Molde win their first league gold ever".

No one would've ever said that because Pep had won Treble before Ole even set foot in Molde.