They're playing in his image and they're playing shit football and choking at the big moments regularly. SAF would come from behind not just in matches but in big season moments to bring us to glory, its a real shame how the standards have been lowered in recent years, tragic almost. Speak tomorrow
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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The points total Mourinho managed in '17-'18 season was 81 points, goal difference +40 (GF 68, GA 28). Ole has managed in '18-'19 (some major Mourinho damage in there) 66 points, goal difference of +11. '19-'20 season: 66 points, goal difference +30. '20-'21 season: 74 points, goal difference +29.
We've not improved in that sense, City and Liverpool have eased off, especially in the 2020-2021 season which was an all sorts of weird season. The gap has most definitely not been bridged and it cannot be bridged when you don't play like a team with a clear idea. I know this has become a cliche, but to me it is a relief that this is now the widespread opinion of most decent journalists, because it's just so obvious.
Caveat: I am not saying Mourinho was good enough, he wasn't. And LVG was a disaster and Moyes too. Neville's argument that United have tried the world class manager approach is disingenuous as we haven't done that, and what sort of a world class manager is also important. We have not gone for a progressive manager who is on an upwards trajectory.
Varane out for weeks. Ole's luck really has run out this season. The next few games could be very unpleasant viewing.
Think people of a sensitive disposition might want to avoid United games for the next month or so.
This is a completely wrong analysis. You can only compare the points achieved by Solskjaer and Mourinho if every factor is the same. If you want to use statistics to compare, ensure that the context is exactly the same. This is impossible as squads (injuries, new transfers), opponents and gameplay (VAR, red cards etc) is different every season.
Even if you want to analyze the total points achieved under Solskjaer during the 19/20 season, the context must also be looked at thoroughly before u decide to "blame" him.
He had rashford injured from Jan till the restart after lockdown, Pogba injured for almost 3/4 of the season and McTominay injured from Mid Dec to Jan. Matic was also playing on and off with some injuries. The squad was way inferior with Andreas Pereira and Lingard being starters during the early to mid part of the season and severely lacking in creativity. The quality in that squad was certainly mid table level regardless of who the manager is. Yet he managed to steer them to 3rd place. If not for his tactical changes and man management, i doubt we would even get 8th place that season. It is very important to note that he managed to get a point against Liverpool and victories against Chelsea, Man City, Leicester and Tottenham with that squad.
Anyone read the Athletic article on Ole?
It was pretty interesting.
It was pretty interesting.
A new manager is not ripping up "the plan". Firstly, there clearly is no plan. The only identity Ole has injected into this side is to never turn up until we're a goal down.
We haven't tried quick fire sackings either. Moyes was sacked months too late, we could have salvaged more from that season if we moved at the pace any other big club would have to get rid of someone hopelessly out their depth. LVG should never have been appointed due to his age. And Mourinho should never have been given a new contract if we never intended to back him in the following transfer market. Made us have to wait until December to sack him because things had to get that critical to override the cost of sacking him with his new terms. All were sacked too late. Ole is benefitting from the board's inability to see the wood from the trees same as those 3 did.
The notion you think Ole will turn this around if you give him 4 more years is absolutely terrifying. Thankfully even the board aren't that deluded.
I don't think so. Looking at the last two seasons, Ole seems to have enjoy some good fortune when everyone expects him to struggle. I think we will do very well in the upcoming 10 tough fixtures and the media would say Ole has come out of it well. Then we will lose ground later on when everyone expects us to win. Underestimate Ole's good fortune at your peril
I read it. Basically Ole is like the biggest cheerleader in the club. Everyone does his job for him. He’s only here to bring good vibes.
What's the point of reading it if you're only going to use it to reinforce your own preset view anyway? That is clearly not the view it presents, on any reasonable reading.
Last night I was thinking how I see parallels between United and England, and Ole and Southgate. Both squads stacked with talent yet unable to fully utilise it due to being led by mediocre tacticians/coaches.
As Southgate is chosen for his nationality over his ability, so too is Ole chosen for reasons other than ability. Both men have also been relegated from the Premier league. I wonder though, how many of those who are happy with Ole, would be happy if we hired Southgate as our next manager?
As Southgate is chosen for his nationality over his ability, so too is Ole chosen for reasons other than ability. Both men have also been relegated from the Premier league. I wonder though, how many of those who are happy with Ole, would be happy if we hired Southgate as our next manager?
Exactly. I don't know why he chose to focus on that part of the debate.
The next few months feel like make or break for Ole. The group stage of the ECL feels particularly important. I think we all expect Utd to drop points in the League. If Utd are close to top 4 and progress to the next round of the ECL then Ole is safe. If Utd bomb out of the ECL then he will be in trouble.
But we were still crap in the 2nd half? I actually can't see where you're drawing a positive from. The piece is even from Laurie Whitwell who himself thinks Ole needs to be replaced for the good of United.
What can be up to the manager then? We know he doesn't do the coaching & tactics as he has said so himself. Now we're saying he shouldn't even be doing the motivating? What should be doing then? Foot massages? What's the fecking point of him then?
I find this statement quite hypocritical, but I guess whatever suits your narrative right? Pogba's best football has come in which season? What did we win?
Under Jose, him and Zlatan actually carried the team in the first season and helped us to 2 trophies. he has only has glimpses under Ole, never a full season or even half.
Secondly, a bit rich saying that I cant acknowledge Pogba playing well but ignore that signings from abroad take a year to settle. Look at Rodri, Cancelo, Kovacic etc... I guess no point having the conversation then.
Yeah, they saw saw that this isnt going well, they realised he isnt the man for the job. The team went from being 9th to now one of the favs for the league because of a managerial change in less than 12 months.
If that isnt evidence enough for you to show what a change of manager can do, I am not sure what is. I don't understand why fans would want to wait until we are out of the CL and PL title race (AGAIN) before realising he isnt the man for the job.
So, if a player didn't win anything, the player's individual performances are invalidated? So, we ignore Shaw's performances last season because we won nothing? Ditto for Bruno?
And for your last point, where did I ignore overseas signings take time to settle? You can make the case for Fred, but for others, they played under Mou for more than a season and none looked good
He can play well and be acknowledged for it. Would you agree that Pogba's best period was just after Jose got sacked? Since then he has been hit and miss. The point is we are picking 3/4 players that have played well under Ole, instead of most of the team.
A top coach gets the whole team playing well, Klopp and Pep have shown this. Rodgers has shown this too, the amount of injuries they had last season and won the FA cup, he got the best out of his players.
Tuchel is another example, Lampard was struggling to get players playing, now Tuchel can rotate players and Chelsea have the same identity. He can play Rudiger, Chalobah, Silva, Christensen, James, Azpi at CB as a combination and nothing changes. Ole can't even get the best out his first 11, look at how much he has got out of Donny for example.
The Athletic article is like a lot of Athletic articles: It puts a big question, provides a long text consisting largely of things that are already well-known and at the end of it you're left not so much with an answer as a few pieces of information you didn't have before.
In this case, that's largely a few opinions coming from unnamed sources, but it does give the impression that they've spoken to quite a few relevant people. Generally that yields a vaguely positive, if not glowing, assessment. If you add up the negatives, it doesn't amount to that much: Carrick can be "schoolmasterly" in his training drills, McKenna lacks charisma though the quality of his work inspires respect, training might benefit from having a coach with more direct elite credentials than Carrick and McKenna, players had expected more of a bollocking than they got after the loss to Sheffield United, and the "communal approach" can get in the way of incisive decisionmaking in some situations. Overall the tone is positive, and it's emphasised that no one is remotely close to panic and that the players are solidly behind OGS.
All of which pretty much dovetails with the image of "largely happy with how things are working" that is already there, without anyone going so far as enthusiastic praise.
This, of course, satisfies no one with a sword to grind in discussion threads like this, on either side of the debate. But it's yet another sign that there is cause neither for elation or abject dissatisfaction.
In this case, that's largely a few opinions coming from unnamed sources, but it does give the impression that they've spoken to quite a few relevant people. Generally that yields a vaguely positive, if not glowing, assessment. If you add up the negatives, it doesn't amount to that much: Carrick can be "schoolmasterly" in his training drills, McKenna lacks charisma though the quality of his work inspires respect, training might benefit from having a coach with more direct elite credentials than Carrick and McKenna, players had expected more of a bollocking than they got after the loss to Sheffield United, and the "communal approach" can get in the way of incisive decisionmaking in some situations. Overall the tone is positive, and it's emphasised that no one is remotely close to panic and that the players are solidly behind OGS.
All of which pretty much dovetails with the image of "largely happy with how things are working" that is already there, without anyone going so far as enthusiastic praise.
This, of course, satisfies no one with a sword to grind in discussion threads like this, on either side of the debate.
But it's yet another sign that there is cause neither for elation or abject dissatisfaction.Oh I agree. I'm not against a change of manager if appropriate. I also think that we should be challenging this year, 4th place and FA Cup for example, would still be a failure in my eyes.
But again with Lampards sacking, it was still January and he was till 9th, and it was still regarded as Chelsea's trademark ruthlessness.
Thats not the position we find ourselves now.
Lets be really clear here. Are you calling for Ole to be replaced 7 games into the season?
I am not calling for Ole to be replaced now but lets face it, in the next 10 games we are all going to call for him to be gone.
We will be fighting to stay in the top 4 by xmas, so as a club, we really need to be looking at the possibilities of a replacement.
Anything but a good run in the PL and CL is a failure, if we go out the group stages, he needs to be sacked on the spot.
I don't think anyone would question that a change of manager can have a huge positive impact on a team, almost immediately. You don't need Tuchel to show that, there's no end of examples. The thing is, there's also no end of examples of the opposite happening, or things basically continuing the same way with the same problems after the managerial change. So that doesn't actually make a general argument that things improve if you change the manager. There's always a downside to changing the manager, in terms of disruption, money, change of course that might not fit the squad and organisation you've built - you lose the benefits of continuity, such as they may be. YOu'd better be reasonably sure the advantages are big enough to outweigh that, if you're going to take that step. Which clubs usually only are when results dip below reasonable expectation for an extended period and they lose confidence things will get better. Particularly when you're in the middle of a season. If you're going to make a change because you don't think your man is the right solution to maximise your potential going forward, that's the sort of decision you take between seasons, not in the middle of one.
Wasn't Rodgers sacked after 8 games when Klopp was brought in?
Why I'm so critical of ole is because he's unable to shape any sort of plan into the team. Something a good manager would have no problem doing regardless of what players he had at his disposal.
Brendan rodgers managed to instill his ways and philosophy into all the team he coached. Granted he may not always gets the trophies but he sure know what he's doing. Ole is just a clueless manager who has no plan other than counter attack and pray that one of his players pull a worldie.
We will never fail too far with players we have, 2nd, 3rd, 4th is inconsequential. But playing in a coherent and tactically sound formation should be a given for any manager worth their salt. Let alone after 3 years and 500m spent.
I dont care if it's not enough to make a prime barcelona, but sure as hell enough to make a free flowing functional team whose able to string passes and dominate 80% of the rest of the league.
The fact that we're still clueless as to how we want to play after 3 years and 500m spent indicates that ole is the wrong man for the job.
Brendan rodgers managed to instill his ways and philosophy into all the team he coached. Granted he may not always gets the trophies but he sure know what he's doing. Ole is just a clueless manager who has no plan other than counter attack and pray that one of his players pull a worldie.
We will never fail too far with players we have, 2nd, 3rd, 4th is inconsequential. But playing in a coherent and tactically sound formation should be a given for any manager worth their salt. Let alone after 3 years and 500m spent.
I dont care if it's not enough to make a prime barcelona, but sure as hell enough to make a free flowing functional team whose able to string passes and dominate 80% of the rest of the league.
The fact that we're still clueless as to how we want to play after 3 years and 500m spent indicates that ole is the wrong man for the job.
It was a carryover of underperformance from previous season tbf
So the same for Ole this year. We were piss poor at the end of last season.
I mean there are no guarantees, either way is a risk. What we do know is that Ole is not going to win us a major trophy, there is enough evidence of that now. I really want Ole to win us something but I have lost the optimism following his early season form, given that he has not really learnt much in 3 years, the team has no identity either.
We could wait until the end of the season and then make a change but if we are battling top 4 and go out the group stages of the CL, there is no scenario that he stays in the job, that is a failure. We have played 2 CL games where we could easily have lost both, we have a tough run of games without our first choice CB's.
We are going to see more short termism from Ole, defensive tactics to get over this period, rather than playing our style.
How are we 3 years into his reign and we are playing short term tactics and selections. Pogba LW is a classic example.
Well I can answer that with some degree of confidence. 95% of RedCafe would lose their sh*t. Those that find amazing ways to exonerate Ole for anything, will criticise Southgate for the same things.
We all know that if Ole wasn't a United legend as a player then things would have gone very differently for him. He probably wouldn't have got the job in the first place...well actually, he definitely wouldn't have got the job.
Bringing in Southgate would be a great exercise in seeing how Ole would have fared had he never played for us.
Fair shout
He was sacked in 10th place, 11 games, only winning 4 across all comps.
We're currently on 5 wins out of 10, all comps. Not much in it.
They'd already lined Klopp up.
I really want Ole to succeed, like most people. I also think he's done a fantastic job so far but perhaps doesn't have the ability to to take us to the next step. But unlike Rogers Liverpool, I have no faith that we have a succession plan in mind.
They missed their minimum expectations - finishing in top 4. So slightly different
Slightly, but as usual you're splitting hairs to deflect.
Our form has been in a worrying fall since last season.
Why not? People who want him out have not formed their opinions over seven games, but over months and even years. So what would it matter if we'd do it seven games into the season? People who don't believe he's good enough have no need to wait and see how it goes.
Having said that, I wouldn't replace him now just for the sake of replacing him. Whether he's gone today, in three months or the end of the season is secondary to us having a good succession plan. If we won't have one and haven't identified the right replacement, we might as well stick with that we've got and use the time to plan.
Because it's a stick that many Ole Outers like to hit Ole with "He smiles too much", "why isn't he angry", "top managers don't smile all the time"
....and yet when faced with adversity before we, a lot of the time, come out the other side silencing the doubters.
....You could argue that he's really only 7 games into the rebuild....
You can't build Rome in 7 days.
Still bottled the chance to win something (against Villareal as well).
Gave the players bollocking at half time and when they were under pressure against Everton, 1-1 at home, at the 95th minute, proceeded to smile at the players and urged them to come so he could kiss their foreheads. "It's fine hahaha come here you, come, nooo don't be scared! its ok!! Im not mad, it's not halftime anymore! it's ok!!"
If he was sacked now the club would probably give it to Carrick or McKenna.
That would be a lie.
The club isnt sacking a manager that just finished 2nd, no matter how much you may want it.
The same was true for Mou as well, and had he not made the dressing room that toxic, pretty sure he'd have lasted the season as well (even though most wanted him gone in the middle of that season)
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