Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[AjaxCunian]

Yes, absolutely.

Why absolutely?

32 points in 14 matches vs 74 in 38 for example in the PL?

 

[anant]

I mean riches in terms of talent, not net spend. Ronaldo was a free, as was cavani, Varane was a bargain, Greenwood and Rashford are academy products etc.

So when I say the other two never had the riches ole has, I’m purely referring to personnel. Apologies, my choice of wording was misleading.

But those two were given enough money. They signed absolute duds and that is somehow being blamed on Ole because he's recruited well *touch wood* so far.

I mean look at the players LVG and Mou signed. In LVG's rein, apart from Shaw - none was an outright success. Herrera and at a stretch Martial and Blind can be called moderate successes (And Shaw is classified as a success because of his performances under Ole). In Mou's time, Zlatan was arguably the only outright success. Lukaku and Lindelof at a stretch can be called moderate successes - and again Lindelof is getting called so because of his performances under Ole.

So, let's not twist the narrative that Ole was backed more than others and still we are here. Everyone was backed equally, and we are in a better position under Ole than we were under LVG or Mou

 

[AltiUn]

Why absolutely?

32 points in 14 matches vs 74 in 38 for example in the PL?

Football and performances were far more convincing than the previous season, mental resiliance shown to recover points from losing positions was fantastic, at times we played some excellent football, had lots of players performing extremely well individually as opposed to basically being carried by one or two players, progressed into his first final with us. You can't say the other poster is being too "black and white" then use points as your only metric for a rebuttal.

It's also worth mentioning that basically everything I thought was good about last season is noticeably absent this season.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Its a very black and white way to look at things. Was last season even better than two seasons ago from the moment Bruno joined?

You're picking the moment Bruno came because that's when we started improving. So why do some act like we've made no progress at all under Ole?

Chelsea with Lampard, and Liverpool with an awful injury run, made it much easier for us to get 2nd fair play. But it doesnt have to be that it's because we made significant improvements as a team. If we did, maybe we might have managed to get out of the group stage, win the mighty Europa League or just a trophy for our ego.

Ole definitely underperformed in Cup competions but Id say the league table is a better metric to judge whether we improved or not. If you think our league position flattered to deceive last season because of Lampard and Liverpool's injuries then the best way to find out is how we do against them in the league this season since those factors that held them back are gone

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

I mean riches in terms of talent, not net spend. Ronaldo was a free, as was cavani, Varane was a bargain, Greenwood and Rashford are academy products etc.

So when I say the other two never had the riches ole has, I’m purely referring to personnel. Apologies, my choice of wording was misleading.

Don’t think so?

 

[AjaxCunian]

Football and performances were far more convincing than the previous season, mental resiliance shown to recover points from losing positions was fantastic, at times we played some excellent football, had lots of players performing extremely well individually as opposed to basically being carried by one or two players, progressed into his first final with us. You can't say the other poster is being too "black and white" then use points as your only metric for a rebuttal.

It's also worth mentioning that basically everything I thought was good about last season is noticeably absent this season.

The reason why I said that, is that there are multiple ways to look at progress, you can go deeper than from 6th to 3rd and then 2nd. There's an awful lot of context and information you disregard.

I think we played easily better football when Bruno first joined generally over that period than last season bar a few moments where we peaked. Especially during the restart, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno were all in great form and Pogba was good from deeper as well.

You're picking the moment Bruno came because that's when we started improving. So why do some act like we've made no progress at all under Ole?


Ole definitely underperformed in Cup competions but Id say the league table is a better metric to judge whether we improved or not. If you think our league position flattered to deceive last season because of Lampard and Liverpool's injuries then the best way to find out is how we do against them in the league this season since those factors that held them back are gone

We have made some progress in some regard, nowhere near enough to keep going on about progress or the 6th, 3rd, 2nd line. None of those seasons were good enough anyway.

Yeah, we will see about that this season, and I hope we will prove to be better than Liverpool/Chelsea. Just seems unlikely to me.

Think they might have better records than us as well since Tuchel joined/when Liverpool got some players back.

 

[romufc]

I agree with you. I think the current crop is definitely good enough, but the manager and coaching is not. We said we needed a top RW and a CB, and ideally a DM. We didn't get the DM but got Ronaldo..

We should all know McFred aren't good enough, and most do by now.

I think it's a legitimate question to ask what more he could possibly need to be in a sustained title race for the entire season. At this point I feel you could add another 2 or 3 world class players and it still wouldn't be enough under OGS.

It won't be enough, teams play through their deficiencies. City won and got to CL without a ST and LB, Liverpool won the CL and then the PL with just a starting 11.

We all use the CDM as an excuse, in reality we all know the manager is not good enough.

No one can tell me that we can't beat Villa, West Ham, Everton without a CDM. That is nonsense. In the long term we may feel the absence but in invidivual games, the game plan is not good enough.

I will give you 2 examples.

1. We conceded a similar goal to Everton last season against Istanbul, did we learn anything?

2. The Mina offside goal - would a CDM have changed that?, the space they had was incredible.

Going forwrard, we struggle every single game to make chances, it shouldnt be this hard.

We can barely beat a team right now, scoring goals is a big problem.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

It's like getting annoyed that water is wet.

Why would I do that? I like swimming. And rain.

 

[MUFC OK]

It won't be enough, teams play through their deficiencies. City won and got to CL without a ST and LB, Liverpool won the CL and then the PL with just a starting 11.

We all use the CDM as an excuse, in reality we all know the manager is not good enough.

No one can tell me that we can't beat Villa, West Ham, Everton without a CDM. That is nonsense. In the long term we may feel the absence but in invidivual games, the game plan is not good enough.

I will give you 2 examples.

1. We conceded a similar goal to Everton last season against Istanbul, did we learn anything?

2. The Mina offside goal - would a CDM have changed that?, the space they had was incredible.

Going forwrard, we struggle every single game to make chances, it shouldnt be this hard.

We can barely beat a team right now, scoring goals is a big problem.

Completely agree, it really shouldn’t. The calibre of some of the teams, Istanbul included, that we’ve conspired to lose/drop points against since ole took over is pretty staggering. I just hope some common sense is applied and sh*t doesn’t have to become an utter disaster before a decision is made.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I think we played easily better football when Bruno first joined generally over that period than last season bar a few moments where we peaked. Especially during the restart, Rashford, Martial, Greenwood, Bruno were all in great form and Pogba was good from deeper as well.
We have made some progress in some regard, nowhere near enough to keep going on about progress or the 6th, 3rd, 2nd line. None of those seasons were good enough anyway.

Yeah, we will see about that this season, and I hope we will prove to be better than Liverpool/Chelsea. Just seems unlikely to me.

Think they might have better records than us as well since Tuchel joined/when Liverpool got some players back.

I'd really be interested to know what some of you expectation was relative to the squad strength we had at the time. So 3rd wasn't enough indication of progress in the 19/20 season. So before that season started did you think our squad was capable of being ahead of Liverpool or City who came 1st and 2nd? Or if 2nd wasn't an indication of progress last season what position did you expect before the start of the season. Where you expecting us to be ahead of City or Liverpool or even Chelsea who had just gone on a spending spree?

 

[MUFC OK]

Don’t think so?

Ah you’re right - £12.5m. Still doesn’t disprove my point.

 

[AjaxCunian]

I'd really be interested to know what some of you expectation was relative to the squad strength we had at the time. So 3rd wasn't enough indication of progress in the 19/20 season. So before that season started did you think our squad was capable of being ahead of Liverpool or City who came 1st and 2nd? Or if 2nd wasn't an indication of progress last season what position did you expect before the start of the season. Where you expecting us to be ahead of City or Liverpool or Chelsea who had just gone on a spending spree?

You can look at more than just our league position.

There was nothing wrong with finishing 2nd or 3rd, it was to be expected. However we were so far off, which was unacceptable. Havent been able to won anything, a pathetic CL campaign, and not even able to win the EL against clubs with less that a quarter of our budget. That is what the "progress" misses, all this whilst playing a poor brand of football which doesnt look to improve.

 

[MUFC OK]

But those two were given enough money. They signed absolute duds and that is somehow being blamed on Ole because he's recruited well *touch wood* so far.

I mean look at the players LVG and Mou signed. In LVG's rein, apart from Shaw - none was an outright success. Herrera and at a stretch Martial and Blind can be called moderate successes (And Shaw is classified as a success because of his performances under Ole). In Mou's time, Zlatan was arguably the only outright success. Lukaku and Lindelof at a stretch can be called moderate successes - and again Lindelof is getting called so because of his performances under Ole.

So, let's not twist the narrative that Ole was backed more than others and still we are here. Everyone was backed equally, and we are in a better position under Ole than we were under LVG or Mou

Nothing to do with whether they were backed. We have a far far better squad now, which ole deserves credit for - he just doesn’t know how to get the best out of those players.

 

[anant]

Nothing to do with whether they were backed. We have a far far better squad now, which ole deserves credit for - he just doesn’t know how to get the best out of those players.

A lot of these players were improved by Ole.

Remember, in 2018 Dec - people were fine with us selling literally everyone barring Dave and maybe Rashy. The fact that Shaw, Lindelof, McFred, Pog have become important players is a testament that he isn't as bad as some on here make him out to be

 

[Lynty]

I don't know what game he has watched, but United are playing anything but simple. For me simple would mean Pep's Barcelona. Utterly dominant and they made it look so goddamn easy. We look like shambles in everything we're trying to do. A 5 meter pass looks like something only a visionary in the style of prime Scholes or Xavi in this team would be able to do. There is no simplicity in our team, just utter chaos.

If I remember correctly, Biesla was praising our counter attacking specifically.

Everyone was labelling us a counter attack merchants and he was basically saying there's nothing wrong with simplicity.

We can't counter effectively now because Pogba is predominantly on the left, Shaw has started slow and Rashford/Sancho seasons haven't really begun yet.

 

[Smores]

But those two were given enough money. They signed absolute duds and that is somehow being blamed on Ole because he's recruited well *touch wood* so far.

I mean look at the players LVG and Mou signed. In LVG's rein, apart from Shaw - none was an outright success. Herrera and at a stretch Martial and Blind can be called moderate successes (And Shaw is classified as a success because of his performances under Ole). In Mou's time, Zlatan was arguably the only outright success. Lukaku and Lindelof at a stretch can be called moderate successes - and again Lindelof is getting called so because of his performances under Ole.

So, let's not twist the narrative that Ole was backed more than others and still we are here. Everyone was backed equally, and we are in a better position under Ole than we were under LVG or Mou

I'd still argue Ole has been backed more. When you look at first team positions that needed to be filled Ole has been given the best in all of them, he hasn't had half way measures ike Lindelof, Dalot, Bailly. Mkhitaryan, Depay. Schneiderlin.

Our new policy is to sign the best or close to it in every first team position.

 

[RedSky]

You can look at more than just our league position.

There was nothing wrong with finishing 2nd or 3rd, it was to be expected. However we were so far off, which was unacceptable. Havent been able to won anything, a pathetic CL campaign, and not even able to win the EL against clubs with less that a quarter of our budget. That is what the "progress" misses, all this whilst playing a poor brand of football which doesnt look to improve.

We're facing Manchester City for fecks sake, they've spent a horrendous amount of money and have got a fantastic squad with excellent depth that was a huge advantage during covid, all this with the best Manager in the world right now. No fecking shit we were a bit behind them, we were still rebuilding and trying to catch up. It's not some magic wand you wave around and instantly everything gets fixed and bad players suddenly become excellent players. We're still behind them too.

The expectations of the majority on here before each season started was a top 4 finish, we exceeded those expectations. The only frustrating thing was not being able to get a trophy. We got very close several times, clearly a bit of a mental block with some of these players right now and perhaps a new Manager is needed to push us that final step. But Ole's work at rebuilding this United team has been nothing short of excellent. He's even got rid of his failed signings sharpish for a profit no less. Personally, I hope the board stick with him as I think he deserves this season to see if he can win something and end on a high. He deserves that opportunity.

 

[romufc]

Completely agree, it really shouldn’t. The calibre of some of the teams, Istanbul included, that we’ve conspired to lose/drop points against since ole took over is pretty staggering. I just hope some common sense is applied and sh*t doesn’t have to become an utter disaster before a decision is made.

Exactly, our board really need to see what is going on and step in before its too late again.

Have a look at Chelsea, it was all oh give Lampard time this that the other, in comes Tuchel and Chelsea look a complete different team.

Lessons should be learnt from that, I am sure a top coach gets us challenging.

 

[Ayoba]

Every season under Ole we have seen an improvement on the last. So long as that holds, don’t you reckon there’s some merit to keeping him on?

People talking as if he’s presided over three seasons of shit with no progress are living in an alternate universe, or just discarding the metrics that ultimately matter.

Do you think it will be enough of an improvement to challenge city for the title? I'm talking about a real challenge here, not the 1 month we had last season. Do you think he can improve us by going further in the CL? Domestically, we're already out of the league cup so all that's left is the FA cup.

Look at Man City, they sacked Mancini and Pellegrini, both of whom won the league, because they knew it was time for a change. Chelsea sacked di matteo 6 months after he won them the CL! What would our board have done if di matteo was with us and won the CL, probably given him a 10 year contract. Now, i'm not advocating that we simply sack managers just for the sake of it. I get the value of giving a manager time, I get the value of longevity. But for me, those must be earned, and the only way they are earned is by performances on the pitch, progress and trophies. We may have had some modicum of progress under Ole in the past 2 seasons, but its not enough and now the performances are lacking and as are the trophies.

 

[romufc]

A lot of these players were improved by Ole.

Remember, in 2018 Dec - people were fine with us selling literally everyone barring Dave and maybe Rashy. The fact that Shaw, Lindelof, McFred, Pog have become important players is a testament that he isn't as bad as some on here make him out to be

I dont know if alot of players are improved by Ole. It is a managers job to get the best out of the players at his disposal.

You can talk about getting best out of players but, did he get the best out of Lukaku?

Jose was the one who brought McTominay through actually, so you cannot go crediting Ole for that.

Lindelof is not an important player for us, he has been on the bench as second choice since Varane come in.

Fred? what has he done to Fred? play him? He is no better than he was when he first came in, still one of our worst performing players, yet Ole instead of making the big bold decisions, keeps playing him.

Pogba is important in what role? 3 years later and he still cannot figure out where to play Pogba. Still cannot figure out where Martial is best?

 

[RedSky]

I'd still argue Ole has been backed more. When you look at first team positions that needed to be filled Ole has been given the best in all of them, he hasn't had half way measures ike Lindelof, Dalot, Bailly. Mkhitaryan, Depay. Schneiderlin.

Our new policy is to sign the best or close to it in every first team position.

Those were just poor signings Smores. All bought for big money and all failed. You look through Joses' signings and the majority were just bad. Both our big money signings under him failed, one quickly sold and the other has struggled at United and could now leave on a free again. While LvG's big money signing was Di María, another failed player.

I think we've actually spent roughly the same amount of money under Jose as we have done with Ole. The difference being that Ole has spent well and the majority of his players won't need replacing when the next Manager comes in. LvG's recruitment was just bizarre, thinned down the squad and spent money on average players, over relying on our academy. The money was clearly there, as demonstrated by Jose spending close to 400 million in his first two seasons.

The irony to me is that I would actually classify Fellaini as one of our better signings since Sir Alex retired and he was wildly abused by United fans. But compared to the dross we signed under LvG and Jose, i'd say he was not too bad. It's pretty impressive that we signed Varane for basically the same fee as Bailly for example.

 

[Lynty]

Exactly, our board really need to see what is going on and step in before its too late again.

Have a look at Chelsea, it was all oh give Lampard time this that the other, in comes Tuchel and Chelsea look a complete different team.

Lessons should be learnt from that, I am sure a top coach gets us challenging.

Lampard got sacked in January at 9th place.

Let's not pretend Chelsea had enough foresight to see where it was going. It was a reactionary sacking, like 99% of sackings are.

If Ole is floating 9th come Jan, with the same football we're seeing now, then I'd expect he'd be out.

 

[AjaxCunian]

We're facing Manchester City for fecks sake, they've spent a horrendous amount of money and have got a fantastic squad with excellent depth that was a huge advantage during covid, all this with the best Manager in the world right now. No fecking shit we were a bit behind them, we were still rebuilding and trying to catch up. It's not some magic wand you wave around and instantly everything gets fixed and bad players suddenly become excellent players. We're still behind them too.

The expectations of the majority on here before each season started was a top 4 finish, we exceeded those expectations. The only frustrating thing was not being able to get a trophy. We got very close several times, clearly a bit of a mental block with some of these players right now and perhaps a new Manager is needed to push us that final step. But Ole's work at rebuilding this United team has been nothing short of excellent. He's even got rid of his failed signings sharpish for a profit no less. Personally, I hope the board stick with him as I think he deserves this season to see if he can win something and end on a high. He deserves that opportunity.

We don't play against City weekly, we got so far behind because we ourselves were very poor was it against the poorer teams or the other top sides. They could say the same about United spending a shitkoad of money over the last years, star signing after star signing, paying ridiculous. Main difference is, Ole and his staff can't get the best out of the team, which is exactly what is being debated. There is no need for such ridiculous hyperbole.

It was minimum top 4, being quite level with Chelsea. I'm sure everyone would have City, and Liverpool ahead of us, but we all know what happened to them and no one would have predicted that.

He's done a good job rebuilding, improving the atmosphere around the club, that's for sure. Not sure if I'd use adverbs like 'excellent' when he has basically spent more than anyone in 3 years and 6 windows and the team still has holes. But that's personal.

 

[RedSky]

We don't play against City weekly, we got so far behind because we ourselves were very poor was it against the poorer teams or the other top sides. They could say the same about United spending a shitkoad of money over the last years, star signing after star signing, paying ridiculous. Main difference is, Ole and his staff can't get the best out of the team, which is exactly what is being debated. There is no need for such ridiculous hyperbole.

It was minimum top 4, being quite level with Chelsea. I'm sure everyone would have City, and Liverpool ahead of us, but we all know what happened to them and no one would have predicted that.

He's done a good job rebuilding, improving the atmosphere around the club, that's for sure. Not sure if I'd use adverbs like 'excellent' when he has basically spent more than anyone in 3 years and 6 windows and the team still has holes. But that's personal.

Yet again. Missing the entire point or just flat out ignoring it and just repeating yourself over and over.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Yet again. Missing the entire point or just flat out ignoring it and just repeating yourself over and over.

I am not missing any point, you're point just isnt deep enough to rest there and ignore all else.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

We were 6th when Ole took over. The next season we came 3rd and after that 2nd. Why isn't this progress to you

We were 2nd the season before Ole took over. It wasn't a 6th placed level squad just like City weren't a 4th placed level squad squad Pep took over there. Depends on what progress means. We also won 3 trophies in the 5 seasons under LVG and Mourinho and 0 trophies in 4 years under Ole. So we've made progress in terms of league finishes and squad development and regressed in terms of success.

Personally it's not merely about progress but whether there is enough progress. And whether we look a team that's ready to challenge for big honors. I don't see it happening under Ole.

 

[OpenIntrovert]

While i understand the frustration of seeing the current performances, saying Ole is clueless or has no tactical acumen is directly contradicting what he has achieved with this squad so far.

In reality, the squad has performed very well till now because of Ole's tactics. The beauty of a good tactic is allowing the players to function based on their skills. The reason why Fernandes is so potent for us is due to 4-2-3-1 tactic where Ole uses 2 defensive midfielders to take away his defensive burden while placing 2 forwards and 1 center forward on either side or top of him to create space for him to exploit. Since Rashford, Greenwood and Martial are forwards who like to dribble, cut in and shoot, their skills are best utilized in the 4-2-3-1 where they take up the left and right winger roles.

Ole has also demonstrated different tactics where he played a 3-4-1-2 against PSG and Liverpool and a 4-4-2 diamond against Chelsea. Probably the best example of his tactical acumen is when a even more inferior squad managed to get a draw against Liverpool back in 2019/20 season. He deployed Ashley Young and Bissaka as wingbacks in a 3-4-1-2 formation to prevent Liverpool from overloading the wings as well as cutting their supply to the front 3. Andreas Pereira was the lone attacking midfielder with James as the right forward in that game. Without his tactics, there was no way that squad would have even gotten anything from that game.

The problem right now is that teams like Aston Villa, Villareal and Everton are targeting the weakest part which is the double pivot. Since McFred are makeshift defensive midfielders, just playing a 5 or 4 man midfield is enough to override them. It also doesnt help that the wingers (Pogba, Greenwood) are unable to track back creating more opportunities for dangerous counter attacks. Ole doesnt have much choices for the double pivot as the squad is heavily unbalanced with superior attacking talent and a complete lack of defensive midfield/central midfield options. We only have 1 defensive midfielder (Matic) and 1 central midfielder (McTominay) which is why more central midfielders or defensive midfielders are needed.

Considering how Ole has adapted to numerous challenging situations over the years, i have no doubt that he will be able to adapt to the current challenge.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

If I remember correctly, Biesla was praising our counter attacking specifically.

Everyone was labelling us a counter attack merchants and he was basically saying there's nothing wrong with simplicity.

We can't counter effectively now because Pogba is predominantly on the left, Shaw has started slow and Rashford/Sancho seasons haven't really begun yet.

Those two (bolded) could be very important for us. I think in last couple of appearances, Sancho has showed glimpses of what he could do. If Rashford comes back and has the pace he used to (with the ability), he'll be back to his pre 2020 self

 

[RedSky]

I am not missing any point, you're point just isnt deep enough to rest there and ignore all else.

You've had several posters make the same argument which you ignore.

Expectations AT THE TIME was agreed that we would finish 4th, this was two seasons ago. The same prediction occurred last season before the season started. We exceeded those expectations and finished 3rd and 2nd yet you think that wasn't good enough. We should be closer to City, who have a settled squad and Manager, who have spent a bucket ton of cash. But ignore all that, we're Manchester United! We might have a shit squad full of over paid, average players signed by the previous Manager, but no. Ignore that! We can match City no problem! Just wave that magic wand and fix the problems.

Sorry, but that's bat shit mental. You need common sense with realistic goals and expectations. This season, it's realistic to assume that we should be challenging for the title and I think it's the first season under Ole that we're clearly currently underperforming relative to our squad strength. But using the previous two league finishes as a barometer for failure is just flat out wrong. The only failure was not getting a trophy, but our league performance was very good.

 

[anant]

I dont know if alot of players are improved by Ole. It is a managers job to get the best out of the players at his disposal.

You can talk about getting best out of players but, did he get the best out of Lukaku?

Jose was the one who brought McTominay through actually, so you cannot go crediting Ole for that.

Lindelof is not an important player for us, he has been on the bench as second choice since Varane come in.

Fred? what has he done to Fred? play him? He is no better than he was when he first came in, still one of our worst performing players, yet Ole instead of making the big bold decisions, keeps playing him.

Pogba is important in what role? 3 years later and he still cannot figure out where to play Pogba. Still cannot figure out where Martial is best?

Lukaku wasn't his type of player and was obviously sold. It's like saying Pep didn't improve half the players he inherited - of course he didn't as many weren't players that could play the way he wanted his side to play

McT was being played as a CB occasionally by Mou just so that he can give a message of some sorts to the board. Lindelof was looking like an atrocious signing at the end of his 1st season here. I don't think many on here have an issue with him playing here, even starting games for us. Ditto for Fred. The fact that he's made him useable is somehow held against him.

If you don't acknowledge Pog's best football at Utd here has come under Ole, then I'm not sure if there's any point in having this conversation.

 

[AjaxCunian]

You've had several posters make the same argument which you ignore.

Expectations AT THE TIME was agreed that we would finish 4th, this was two seasons ago. The same prediction occurred last season before the season started. We exceeded those expectations and finished 3rd and 2nd yet you think that wasn't good enough. We should be closer to City, who have a settled squad and Manager, who have spent a bucket ton of cash. But ignore all that, we're Manchester United! We might have a shit squad full of over paid, average players signed by the previous Manager, but no. Ignore that! We can match City no problem! Just wave that magic wand and fix the problems.

Sorry, but that's bat shit mental. You need common sense with realistic goals and expectations. This season, it's realistic to assume that we should be challenging for the title and I think it's the first season under Ole that we're clearly currently underperforming relative to our squad strength. But using the previous two league finishes as a barometer for failure is just flat out wrong. The only failure was not getting a trophy, but our league performance was very good.

And I disagree that our league performance have been very good under Ole (though the positions were good in my opinion and met the expectations), you're also are you accusing me of loads of things that I'm not saying. Ofcourse it's bat shit mental when you make stuff up.

 

[anant]

I'd still argue Ole has been backed more. When you look at first team positions that needed to be filled Ole has been given the best in all of them, he hasn't had half way measures ike Lindelof, Dalot, Bailly. Mkhitaryan, Depay. Schneiderlin.

Our new policy is to sign the best or close to it in every first team position.

But these were all expensive players at the time. Lindelof was 32 odd million at a time when apart from a few transfers here and there, most CBs went for <25m. Dalot - 19m for a teenager who had hardly played senior football was equivalent to us paying 28m for Amad. Bailly at that time had become one of the most expensive CB signings ever. Mkhi was reigning BuLi player of the year when we signed him. Depay was the brightest young player and Schneiderlin was arguably the best DM in the league. Add to that, we also signed Zlatan, AdM, Falcao, who were either on high wages or cost good money.
And then there were the Rojo's and the Schweinsteigers on top of all this

 

[Vidyoyo]

Lindelof was 32m well spent. You can't put a price on aura.

 

[united_99]

So did those people who are keen to make excuses for other teams for last season (Lampard, Liverpool injuries, etc.) make the same excuses for their own team for 2019/20?
We already had a thin squad on quality, Shaw missed 13 league games through injury, Rashford 7, Martial 6, Matic missed some, Pogba missed 22 league games and we had Bruno only for half a season.

Even last season we had some unfortunate injuries at the same time so we ended up with Shola and Amad as our only attacking options on the bench.

Either make excuses and take into account context for all team including United, or don’t make excuses for any team.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

You can look at more than just our league position.

There was nothing wrong with finishing 2nd or 3rd, it was to be expected. However we were so far off, which was unacceptable. Havent been able to won anything, a pathetic CL campaign, and not even able to win the EL against clubs with less that a quarter of our budget. That is what the "progress" misses, all this whilst playing a poor brand of football which doesnt look to improve.

If we are looking at more than the league position then definitely Ole has underachieved in that area. But to say we've made no progress under Ole is false which is what I was replying to initially. We've made progress in the league and that to me is a better metric of progress than winning an fa cup or el. And that doesn't mean Cup trophies are pointless or don't indicate progress at all. The league is just a better metric. For example Arsenal won the fa Cup but you cant say they've made progress because of how they are doing in the league

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

We were 2nd the season before Ole took over. It wasn't a 6th placed level squad just like City weren't a 4th placed level squad squad Pep took over there. Depends on what progress means. We also won 3 trophies in the 5 seasons under LVG and Mourinho and 0 trophies in 4 years under Ole. So we've made progress in terms of league finishes and squad development and regressed in terms of success.

Personally it's not merely about progress but whether there is enough progress. And whether we look a team that's ready to challenge for big honors. I don't see it happening under Ole.

I agree with this

 

[AjaxCunian]

If we are looking at more than the league position then definitely Ole has underachieved in that area. But to say we've made no progress under Ole is false which is what I was replying to initially. We've made progress in the league and that to me is a better metric of progress than winning an fa cup or el. And that doesn't mean Cup trophies are pointless or don't indicate progress at all. The league is just a better metric. For example Arsenal won the fa Cup but you cant say they've made progress because of how they are doing in the league

I just seen I made a mistake in the post you replied to. I dont think people expected us to be 2nd or 3rd, however the performances and points tally those seasons didnt exceed what was to be expected of us at that stage.

I agree that league position is a better metric. But many posters also use the year on year league position improvement as we have been improving every year, so let's see if we improve again this season.

However, in the PL we actually regressed last season compared to the 2nd half of the season before that one. Showing we arent really continuously getting better, even in the league. We were very bad that 1st half of the season, Bruno came and we significantly improved and we have gotten worse again.

 

[RedSky]

And I disagree that our league performance have been very good under Ole (though the positions were good in my opinion and met the expectations), you're also are you accusing me of loads of things that I'm not saying. Ofcourse it's bat shit mental when you make stuff up.

Do you actually read what you write?

There was nothing wrong with finishing 2nd or 3rd, it was to be expected. However we were so far off, which was unacceptable.

What you're saying here is the only way Ole would gain credit in your eyes was to finish 2nd but also be much closer to City. I.E. 2nd meant nothing last season because we were 12 points adrift. Clearly ignoring the fact that the season before when we finished 3rd we were 33 points adrift.

This forum is crazy at times and even we all established that finishing 2nd (no matter the points) would be a decent accomplishment last season. It just sounds like to me that you don't want to give him any credit in the slightest and just make up unrealistic expectations (that's really not warranted) to attack him. You can critise the performances, but our results in the league have been decent under Ole and have shown a steady climb in the right direction. Even our cup runs (with the exception of the Champions League) have been decent. Obviously, a major failing being not getting us a trophy, but we've always been close.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

I'd still argue Ole has been backed more. When you look at first team positions that needed to be filled Ole has been given the best in all of them, he hasn't had half way measures ike Lindelof, Dalot, Bailly. Mkhitaryan, Depay. Schneiderlin.

Our new policy is to sign the best or close to it in every first team position.

In some instances Ole waited for this to happen. He had to wait till January to get Bruno and till the next season to get Sancho and Varane, also kept getting cheap stop gaps as strikers. In those instances, Mourinho or Lvg wouldn't have waited and would have gone for the next subpar option

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Do you actually read what you write?



What you're saying here is the only way Ole would gain credit in your eyes was to finish 2nd but also be much closer to City. I.E. 2nd meant nothing last season because we were 12 points adrift. Clearly ignoring the fact that the season before when we finished 3rd we were 33 points adrift.

This forum is crazy at times and even we all established that finishing 2nd (no matter the points) would be a decent accomplishment last season. It just sounds like to me that you don't want to give him any credit in the slightest and just make up unrealistic expectations (that's really not warranted) to attack him. You can critise the performances, but our results in the league have been decent under Ole and have shown a steady climb in the right direction. Even our cup runs (with the exception of the Champions League) have been decent. Obviously, a major failing being not getting us a trophy, but we've always been close.

People probably want more than decent from a club that spends as much as we do and has the ambition that ours does.