it has been 3 years. Learning? It is time to deliver, learning is unacceptable.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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it has been 3 years. Learning? It is time to deliver, learning is unacceptable.
He's won nothing in 3 years, despite having a better squad and spending more money. He's done worse.
By what assessable standard has Ole been better than Jose? Trophies? Hasn't finished higher than Jose, hasn't accumulated more points than Jose has. Despite spending more money, having more time and having a better squad.
Unless you judge a Manchester United manager by how happy he can make the place and his signings.
Yea those things would help us as a club long term obviously. But they don't really affect us on the pitch in the near term though. Not as much as the management/coaching which is of near term importance.
I'm ranting too much. I'm off to watch Lock
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It's too early to call for the managers head and I think those calls are ridiculous given the stage of the season. One area however where the manager needs to improve is the philosophy / style of play imposed on the first team. It looks like another season where this squad will lack an established identity. Build up play has been poor likewise the cohesion in movement and passing.
As it's stands, this I feel is something outside of Solskjaer's arsenal. It's not a requirement to win trophies but it's a necessity when having consistency in results.
As it's stands, this I feel is something outside of Solskjaer's arsenal. It's not a requirement to win trophies but it's a necessity when having consistency in results.
for all those still thinking Ole can win us trophies, how many points we would have to drop like today this season for you to finally believe he deserves a big thank you and a sack and this squad could have an actual shot at winning the league / CL with a better manager (get lucky with a new manager bounce for once, perhaps?)
today made me very sad, because we started this seasons as hyped as ever after Sir Alex, with multiple opponent fans agreeing our team looks excellent, on paper as good as the best in Europe, and with pretty much no one but us believing Ole can go toe-to-toe with top managers of his generation. Second game in, dropping two points in what was supposed to be a year we challenge for the title - and please don't get me started on who said we should challenge City/Chelsea/LFC for the title, you don't spend all those hundreds of millions to tell Sancho and Varane they should be excited of the prospect of a 4th place trophy. Hardly a disaster but these two points will fecking matter a lot and we've also seen this absurd of completely disjoint performances and zero plan for the game after losing an early, stupid goal. I am very much afraid we will have more performances like today later on in the season and that's not really a pessimism, rather observation on what Ole has showed in quite a few games he managed us, today smelled of déjà vu again. I am a bit tired, I love Ole but there is really very little faith in me that he is the man for the position of a fecking gaffer of Manchester United - he did the rebuild, he raised the morale, he's a legend, but we need a person as talented in charge as Bruno, Pogba, Mason, Varane.
today made me very sad, because we started this seasons as hyped as ever after Sir Alex, with multiple opponent fans agreeing our team looks excellent, on paper as good as the best in Europe, and with pretty much no one but us believing Ole can go toe-to-toe with top managers of his generation. Second game in, dropping two points in what was supposed to be a year we challenge for the title - and please don't get me started on who said we should challenge City/Chelsea/LFC for the title, you don't spend all those hundreds of millions to tell Sancho and Varane they should be excited of the prospect of a 4th place trophy. Hardly a disaster but these two points will fecking matter a lot and we've also seen this absurd of completely disjoint performances and zero plan for the game after losing an early, stupid goal. I am very much afraid we will have more performances like today later on in the season and that's not really a pessimism, rather observation on what Ole has showed in quite a few games he managed us, today smelled of déjà vu again. I am a bit tired, I love Ole but there is really very little faith in me that he is the man for the position of a fecking gaffer of Manchester United - he did the rebuild, he raised the morale, he's a legend, but we need a person as talented in charge as Bruno, Pogba, Mason, Varane.
It's clear as daylight that he hasn't got the burning desire of ruthless winner, for him to stand on that touchline, watch the likes of Fred, Matic, Maguire, Luke Shaw, Bissaka and Lindelöf take an awful long time to pass the ball foward, without having a go at them is something Pep, Klopp, Tunchel, Zidane, Conte, Manncini all them managers won't tolerate that, but yet OGS seems comfortable with a draw against this weak Southampton team in a Leauge were your competition is against serial winners, I'll reserve my comment till after the Wolves game.
Today was really crap
if we go another summer and end up playing the same midfield this season, it’s terrible mismanagement
should have been first priority
if we go another summer and end up playing the same midfield this season, it’s terrible mismanagement
should have been first priority
Haha knee jerk galore here. It is the second game of the season. If Ole fails to mount a serious title challenge this season then it is time we bid him farewell.
We need a Kante type of player and Fred isn't a long term solution nor is MCT.
We need a Kante type of player and Fred isn't a long term solution nor is MCT.
Brilliant. Definitely the same level of achievement as winning PL titles and the CL
Jose left the squad in a much worse position than any of the manager ao just because he won some 2 trophies doesn't automatically mean he was doing a better job. I prefer where we are now than where we were in December 2018. Of course Ole has to win trophies and the pressure is on him. But Jose with the expectation he came did a poor job. He flopped as a United manager and no league cup or scrapping past celta vigo will change that. Because if that was the only barometer arteta is doing a better job.
So you're judging Ole the manager based on basically his ability as a director of football. I'm glad we agree Jose was the better manager for us then, as was the initial point.
Couldn't give a feck what position he left rhe squad in, ye it was shite and ye he wasn't good enough, but he won more trophies, had a season where he accumulated more points than Ole has, against a more dominant City side with a worse squad.
Ole making everyone all happy and shit is the least of my concerns for a United manager tbh
Also the Arteta comparison is silly. The circumstances are completely different. Ole has been completely backed to the hilt now. Jose had similar circumstances, was backed, the same club and has so far fared better. We are yet to even finish on the point tally that Jose accumulated. He's done worse as a manager, as winning trophies and point accumulation is all that matters at the top clubs, see Chelsea, Madrid etc. Our board is the only one that seems to care about 'trusting the process', which seemingly never ends.
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I find it hilarious how he directly went to Carrington after the EL Final, Ole was done with not competing.
Only to start unfit and useless Martial over Sancho, start Matic/Fred and "ease" Varane in the side. What was the point? Just so performative. He could have easily gone home and had some rest.
Only to start unfit and useless Martial over Sancho, start Matic/Fred and "ease" Varane in the side. What was the point? Just so performative. He could have easily gone home and had some rest.
Points all well taken except “meh”. We had every reason to expect a smashing victory today and yet we pissed away two points. Perhaps we needed this kick in the teeth to leave no doubt at all that Martial is nowhere near physically or mentally fit to play. A common misconception holds that a top striker must be fed perfect balls (no jokes, please) to score goals. That’s just the case. Go back over to strikers from Kane all the way back to Gerd Muller and you’ll find strikers who scored gobs of goals off crumbs of chances. Martial just isn’t made of that mentality.
But we saw problems everywhere, bar Pogba. Even Shaw played some poor balls. Fred was dire, but misfortune played its part too. These things do happen, but Ole set us up too defensively — two holding kids against a club like Southampton FFS — in the first half and then made the wrong substitutions in the second half. Sancho should have started and if we had to start Martial then play him on the left where his dribbling ability is a useful asset. Up top Martial beats no one.
If Ole learns from this the two dropped points will have been worth it. But if wheel out this shit again and again we need to think seriously about bringing in Conte or another manager to take the wheel. Another top four finish is literally, not figuratively, unacceptable.
Do people on this forum not understand the concept of a 38-game league? And is drawing and losing so unfathomable? It's all part of the season that *every* team goes through.
Were the same people using the same "Ole is clueless" when we beat Leeds 5-1 last week? No, because that would be absolutely ridiculous and patently untrue. If he beats the next team 5-0 next week, the narrative will change again. This is such a low attention span forum.
Going by your logic, only Chelsea, Liverpool, Brighton and Spurs are title contenders this year. Has to be 100% win rate at all times.
Like I mentioned in another post. Even though I want to criticize the performance, the calls for sacking and stupid exaggerated opinions of all the toxic moaners on this forum TWO GAMES INTO A SEASON keeps me from doing it. There has to be a middle ground where people can analyse the defeat in a more meaningful way instead of trawling through hundreds of comments with the word "shit" in them.
And the Tuchel love-in on here is weird.
Were the same people using the same "Ole is clueless" when we beat Leeds 5-1 last week? No, because that would be absolutely ridiculous and patently untrue. If he beats the next team 5-0 next week, the narrative will change again. This is such a low attention span forum.
Going by your logic, only Chelsea, Liverpool, Brighton and Spurs are title contenders this year. Has to be 100% win rate at all times.
Like I mentioned in another post. Even though I want to criticize the performance, the calls for sacking and stupid exaggerated opinions of all the toxic moaners on this forum TWO GAMES INTO A SEASON keeps me from doing it. There has to be a middle ground where people can analyse the defeat in a more meaningful way instead of trawling through hundreds of comments with the word "shit" in them.
And the Tuchel love-in on here is weird.
Yeah, feck sustainability, feck the atmosphere in and around the club, feck the fact that he was actively driving players like Pogba away, feck the fact that he tried to shatter Luke Shaw, feck the fact that he completely neverminded the league to have anything like a chance at winning the Europa League.
Some of you people have such simple measures of success. Nice tagline, btw.
Ohhhhhhhh shots fired!
except it's not just one draw is it? this has now been going on for more than two seasons. Get a grip? maybe you should take of those red-tinted glasses
You're right, it's very simple - you either win silverware or you don't. How is what Jose was doing to Shaw any different to what Ole is doing to VDB? Bailly? Etc. Completely freezing out players due to his lack of interest in utilizing them/because he doesn't rate them. You're all just all giddy because he's a club legend and does it with a smile instead of being a miserable fecker about it. It's also completely irrelevant, he's been here longer than all the previous managers and has achieved less than all of them, despite spending a feck tonne of cash.
If you want the head coach of Manchester United to be judged on how happy the place is, you have different expectations than myself. Ole should have become a DOF if he only wanted to be judged on the footballing vision and transfer activity at the club, those are all secondary means to achieve his primary goal which is silverware which so far he has failed at.
Also your point about sustainability is hilarious - given his insistence on running players into the ground due to his inability to get performances out of squad players. Very sustainable. Playing players like Marcus through injuries because he knows he's one of a few players that regardless of system can pull shit out of nothing. Playing with two DM's despite having a squad stacked with attacking talent, playing football that is still very pragmatic, not being able to improve the collective ability of the squad. Passing still erratic, slow, pressing still unorganised etc. Very sustainable aspects of management, has to be said
It may be sustainable to maintain this nearly men rubbish we are under him, not sustainable to mount a title challenge against managers that are in another league to Ole, unfortunately.
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People here very well understand the concept, thanks for reminding. Ole is with us not 2 games but nearly 3 years now so we judge him on that. These 2 games is a perfect reflection of his reign here. 1 day we are very good, next day we are crap. Basically all depends on a few individual performances in the team as our coaching staff makes literally no difference on results. You see teams like City/Chelsea who always play the same, create loads of chances, have good possession, move the ball quickly, you can see players know exactly what they are supposed to do. Meanwhile you don't know what you are gonna get from us, each match is a completely different story and it's the exact same problem for 3 years now. We are not title contenders, we have never been. We have a very good squad but the manager is not up to the standards required for a proper challenge for title, or even cups. It's sad when you think that we will waste the best years of Bruno, Pogba, Maguire, Varane etc with Ole in charge.
I forgot football didn't exist before the commencement of the 2021/22 Premier League Season.
Pretty much everybody frustrated with Ole was frustrated well before this game, and would probably have preferred he moved on multiple times over the last couple of years. Nobody is seriously expecting/suggesting that this draw vs Southampton in the second game of a season is the most egregious failure of Ole, but it does just show the same old problems that have frustrated fans for a couple of years now.
I still come back to the idea that if Ole did depart now, he would probably struggle to get a Championship job. This is one of the best squads in world football at the moment, it's time to capitalise with one of the best managers.
No but clearly not a sign of someone out of his depth, no?
How has he frozen out Bailly? He’s been injured for the most part, and gets his chances when he’s not.
VDB is strange, but you’re reaching if you’re trying to make it out to be anything like Jose’s treatment of Shaw.
Also, Ole had to undo the enormous issue of big names with shitty output on huge wages. He had to do a clearing job to sort out the mess of his predecessors before he could start working properly.
It’s not all about smiles for me, but I’d rather have a sustainable and clear profile rather than these big manager rush jobs so we can win an EL or League Cup.
Straw man much? There's a difference between people feeling that he won't win us top honours vs people feeling he's out of his depth ffs.
At the end of the day, we are Manchester United, and ultimately, we aim to win the biggest prizes available. I still support him, but if he doesn't challenge for top honours this season after spending a shit load of money, and three and a half years in charge, then what's the point. Peoples reservations are well founded, whether you like it or not.
How’s that a straw man? He was responding to someone claiming Ole was out of his depth.
Am totally with you that we have to start looking like real contenders this season. Squad should certainly be strong enough for that.
Ahhhh, thought that he was replying to Amol. Nevertheless, he's still one of the rampant Ole obsessives.
He signed VDB for extremely a high fee and has refused to play the kid, preferring a 59 year old Matic over him at times. No explanation, to chance to even play and prove himself. Not that I completely disagree - managers don't like players and don't play them all the time, just pointing out what Jose did with Shaw, despite him doing it in a cnuty way, really isn't that uncommon.
How exactly does he have to clear out the overpaid rubbish (which btw, we still haven't achieved), required before he can start doing his job as a fecking head coach? He isn't a director of football, thus I'm not going to judge his ability as a manager down to his ability to sign players and how happy the mood around the place is. Managers get judged on trophies.
I also agree - but we don't have a sustainable and clear profile under Ole. If we did, I'd be completely on board. We are still very much the same team we were when he joined, albeit with better players. The individual quality of the squad has improved with signings but the football being played etc. is nowhere near sustainable to mount a proper challenge for major trophies. We are still clueless when pressed well, extremely slow at passing, no movement off the ball, our pressing is so un-organised and usually only consists of Bruno etc. These are all aspects of the game that can be coached regardless of the quality of personnel - see Klopp, Pep etc.
This current approach is sustainable if we want to continue being the nearly men we are under Ole. I do agree he's made some good signings and improved the mood in the squad though, very much on board there. Where he falls short is the important part of utilizing those circumstances to win us silverware.
You're right, however I will try and not judge him before we have a reasonably fit squad. Not including Van de Beek at all seems very strange though, as does putting Lingard in.
You think benching VDB is anything like what Mourinho put Shaw through? Saying he needed his brain to do well? Come on. How often do we see players come out like Shaw has against Mourinho this year?
And Ole had to get rid of Sanchez and Lukaku, did not get any replacements, you’re damn right he couldn’t get started on winning trophies right away.
Anyway, clearly we live in different worlds. I give up.
I’ll wait till Cavani, Varane and Sancho are integrated into the side before passing any judgement on improvement.
Give it 10 games and I think we’ll see a much better United side.
Give it 10 games and I think we’ll see a much better United side.
That's fair. I'm not overly concerned about yesterday, though it was a shit show. If we go beat Wolves convincingly next weekend with Varane and Sancho starting, then we go into the international break with 7 points from 9. That's not too bad, but a good performance is vital.
I still fancy us to challenge this season and am backing him. I'll judge differently at the end of the season, if ultimately we don't challenge for the top honours. I have no issues with Ole, just the fans that act as his gatekeepers.
Last 20-25 minutes pissed me off the most. Until we scored, we were ok. But after that i expected total attack and pressure. And that didn't happen. In matter of fact, it was Southampton who controled the game.
Last Christmas Ole said:-
Donny will have an important part to play for us in second half of season. Still no game time. Why keep him.
Martial is not a CF. he's got enough chances. Should be moved on now we have Cavani and Greenwood
We all know that we need a DM. Nothing so far, and teams know that this is the area to hit us.
Lingard doesn't fit in here so at 28 now, should be sold on.
Persevere with Dalot and Telles or sell one of them.
Bailly and Jones should be moved on, along with Matic and Mata.
One week left in transfer window, so we should go all out to sell the deadwood and bring in
players to make us better.
Donny will have an important part to play for us in second half of season. Still no game time. Why keep him.
Martial is not a CF. he's got enough chances. Should be moved on now we have Cavani and Greenwood
We all know that we need a DM. Nothing so far, and teams know that this is the area to hit us.
Lingard doesn't fit in here so at 28 now, should be sold on.
Persevere with Dalot and Telles or sell one of them.
Bailly and Jones should be moved on, along with Matic and Mata.
One week left in transfer window, so we should go all out to sell the deadwood and bring in
players to make us better.
I've already mentioned I agree that the way Jose went about it was incorrect - but if you think that alone is enough to justify Ole has been a better manager for us is ridiculous to me.
Ole didn't need to get rid of no-one. He choose to get rid of Lukaku as he didn't know/didn't want to utilize him, instead opting to play him as a wide forward.
Lastly - it's not just about winning trophies. I feel you're missing the point if you think the fans who want him out are only disappointed because he hasn't won trophies. It's because of the footballing approach, the lack of ability to improve the collective, the poor football, the tactical errors etc. that are most worrying - it's not that we haven't yet won trophies, more so that we cannot win major trophies with him moving forward.
You're right though - this has been argued to death, but most parties seem to agree he doesn't have any more excuses anymore (even though I'm sure some of you lot will conjure something). So I really do hope I'm wrong and he proves me wrong, but so far, given the football we play, I really don't see it.
I find it concerning how sometimes we just fade away in games we haven't even won and at times seems like the players collectively stop trying.
You could go back to the Sevilla game last year or the EL final a couple of months ago and see the same happening.
You could go back to the Sevilla game last year or the EL final a couple of months ago and see the same happening.
Yes, I think that alone is enough to say he’s a better manager
Stop arguing in bad faith.
A sensible post in this nightmare of a thread!
You could throw Rashford into that group as well. Basically, we're "missing" 4 players from the starting XI. And our midfield is still an issue that could and should be addressed before the transfer window closes(I reckon we need to sell som players first, though).
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