Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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theklr said:
So , you would keep sacking any manager that didnt deliver a trophy the first year or any year after that? Think we would soon run out of managers to hire...
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No I wouldn't sack him just because of that, but that's what I would demand and what I thing we as a club should demand.

But if that manager showed no signs of being capable to deliver that title then yes I would totally sack him no matter in only 3/4 of a season went by. It's not hard to predict if a manager will deliver, and I don't think we should waste years and years hoping for something to click.

That rebuild argument is a scam, teams don't take 3-4 years to rebuild, thats nonsense.
 
Leftback99 said:
I'm not sure what problem you thought Rojo was solving. But our terrible transfers 2013-19 are the key reason we aren't challenging.
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Yeah the old "let's blame the past" argument. Maybe our terrible 2020 transfer feck us? I mean what changed so much after 2019?

I swear to God Bruno saved not only Ole's job but also this narrative that wants to convince us that Ole's recruits are much better. Without Bruno the list is bang average with some really terrible failures like VDB.
 
SAFMUTD said:
No I wouldn't sack him just because of that, but that's what I would demand and what I thing we as a club should demand.

But if that manager showed no signs of being capable to deliver that title then yes I would totally sack him no matter in only 3/4 of a season went by. It's not hard to predict if a manager will deliver, and I don't think we should waste years and years hoping for something to click.

That rebuild argument is a scam, teams don't take 3-4 years to rebuild, thats nonsense.
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What signs are there? How do you predict a manager will be successful? There is really no way to predict that factually, that will be very subjective.

By your standards Klopp would have gotten the sack before Liverpool would have won anything.

Look, I dont disagree with that there should be a certain timelimit to a managers reign w/o success, and I agree Ole should have won something this year.
 
theklr said:
What signs are there? How do you predict a manager will be successful? There is really no way to predict that factually, that will be very subjective.

By your standards Klopp would have gotten the sack before Liverpool would have won anything.

Look, I dont disagree with that there should be a certain timelimit to a managers reign w/o success, and I agree Ole should have won something this year.
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Prediction and evaluation are two different things.
 
theklr said:
What signs are there? How do you predict a manager will be successful? There is really no way to predict that factually, that will be very subjective.

By your standards Klopp would have gotten the sack before Liverpool would have won anything.

Look, I dont disagree with that there should be a certain timelimit to a managers reign w/o success, and I agree Ole should have won something this year.
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What signs? Well competing it's one, I mean we got out of group stages of UCL so while subjective to say we failed miserably I think it's a fair way to evaluate it.

Also a distant second place with City being technically champions for over 3 months well again that's not really challenging isn't it?

We can get all theoretical about how we grade a manager, naming that one odd time that Ranieri won and saying that anything's possible so we can discard any manager etc.

Bottom line is the chances of Ole suddenly becoming a top manager after 10 years of coaching are quite slim. I think he's been here long enough for us to know what he can offer and I don't think he's good enough. As you say there must be a time limit and I think this season was, not only to win something but to perform. We did neither.
 
theklr said:
What signs are there? How do you predict a manager will be successful? There is really no way to predict that factually, that will be very subjective.

By your standards Klopp would have gotten the sack before Liverpool would have won anything.

Look, I dont disagree with that there should be a certain timelimit to a managers reign w/o success, and I agree Ole should have won something this year.
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The thing is Ole himself was a gamble, a gamble which was as a result of us thinking he was good enough to perform immediately (Mourinho was the problem and Ole can get the best out of the players, etc). It was only once he started failing badly that the whole rebuild rhetoric came to the fore, and has lingered for 3 years now.

In that context, it doesn't make sense to hold on to such a manager for so long without him winning anything because at that point the odds are that we've simply hired a mediocre manager. In fact, I'd say it's pretty shocking what we've done given the options that have been available for a club our size.

Put it this way, if there was some sort of shareholder accountability for on-pitch performance, we would have gotten rid of him long ago as what we've done would probably have been seen as quite negligent.
 
theklr said:
Evaluating if a manager will be successful after 3/4 of a season is a prediction.
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I’m going by his entire time here. It’s not a situation in which there are little to no arguments in favor of the manager, but there are some glaring issues that are being purposely ignored by posters who, unlike you, are just campaigning on his behalf in an intellectually dishonest manner, rather than debating.
 
theklr said:
Evaluating if a manager will be successful after 3/4 of a season is a prediction.
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Evaluating or predicting doesn't matter, bottom line is you trust the manager to give results?

Moyes was sacked without even completing the season, nobody moaned about him being "predicted" to fail and not evaluated or something.

Things are the way they are.
 
Ole is a club hero. He should have a gold statue made of him smiling and waving to the fans. Utd could then replace him with the statue in the dugout as a reminder of success in the European final. They could put the statue in the dressing room at half-time and the players could bask in it's warm golden glow and feel energised and inspired.

OR Utd could bite the bullet and get an actual manager who doesn't hide behind a piece of paper and whisper sweet nothings during the critical moment before extra-time starts.

I don't mind Ole in the job but it is sentimemtal overdrive. He doesn't turn up at the big moments and he doesn't try to affect games at key times. He sits there hoping his first eleven pull through everytime. Still, if he gets another 1 billion to spend he will eventually win something.

I say keep him until he wants to leave, but that is more out of morbid curiousity than belief he will win anything
 
SAFMUTD said:
No I wouldn't sack him just because of that, but that's what I would demand and what I thing we as a club should demand.

But if that manager showed no signs of being capable to deliver that title then yes I would totally sack him no matter in only 3/4 of a season went by. It's not hard to predict if a manager will deliver, and I don't think we should waste years and years hoping for something to click.

That rebuild argument is a scam, teams don't take 3-4 years to rebuild, thats nonsense.
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Yes sometimes 1 transfer window can do the job…on football manager. In real life, it takes time.
 
united for life said:
Yes sometimes 1 transfer window can do the job…on football manager. In real life, it takes time.
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How much time?

Madrid and Barca are in a middle of a rebuild, would their fans say " yep rebuild time, at least 3-4 years before we go back to competing".

Chelsea went through it, fact is every single team goes through it but only here we talk about it as if it's a natural process that takes years and years and some how we must be ok with that and be patient.
 
united for life said:
Yes sometimes 1 transfer window can do the job…on football manager. In real life, it takes time.
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Takes time yeah. How much time is the key.

You can literally go 10 years without a single trophy and keep on claiming that you're still "rebuilding" the team.
 
SAFMUTD said:
Evaluating or predicting doesn't matter, bottom line is you trust the manager to give results?

Moyes was sacked without even completing the season, nobody moaned about him being "predicted" to fail and not evaluated or something.

Things are the way they are.
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Yeah, they clearly didnt trust Moyes to get better when he failed his primary objective, they seem to trust Ole though
 
theklr said:
Yeah, they clearly didnt trust Moyes to get better when he failed his primary objective, they seem to trust Ole though
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I think they trust him to get top 4, that's the problem. Ole brings stability much needed to secure top 4, but that's about it. Sadly that seems to be enough for the owners.

We are cursed with mediocrity we either failed miserably out of top 4 or we won't change managers. Sadly the fan and owners goals are not aligned.
 
theklr said:
Yeah, they clearly didnt trust Moyes to get better when he failed his primary objective, they seem to trust Ole though
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They had little choice after they prematurely gave him a permanent contract, and we subsequently went on that abysmal run. They had to openly back him to save face.

From that point on it was always going to be incredibly hard to sack him.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
I can make a logical and reasoned point to back up my point and opinion.... truly I’ve never heard or read anything logical, rational, or reasoned from the extremist amongst the Ole In forever and ever and ever, it’s all cult like petty insults and stock replies. You really do have to wonder do they support Man Utd or Ole
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Most of them support Ole.
 
United in sin said:
It makes me sick to the stomach he's going to be rewarded with a fresh long term contract
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The idiotic board reward mediocrity, maybe they get the feeling of acceptance of Ole from large section of our fanbase that support Ole (based mostly on sentimentality). Even if we ignore the trophyless seasons he had till now, his football is small time football playing only on counters, and if he faces a team that park the bus he is usually clueless.
 
SAFMUTD said:
How much time?

Madrid and Barca are in a middle of a rebuild, would their fans say " yep rebuild time, at least 3-4 years before we go back to competing".

Chelsea went through it, fact is every single team goes through it but only here we talk about it as if it's a natural process that takes years and years and some how we must be ok with that and be patient.
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el3mel said:
Takes time yeah. How much time is the key.

You can literally go 10 years without a single trophy and keep on claiming that you're still "rebuilding" the team.
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i’ve seen progress under Ole despite the fact that the squad he has is not completely what he wants. A key positive is the squad harmony which we haven’t seen since 2013. The players back him and trust the process. The football is better than under the 3 previous managers as well. We’re almost there.

although we have a relatively good starting 11, the squad depth isn’t good enough. We finished second in the league; not the result we wanted, but we lost it to manchester city who can lose de bruyne due to injury and still not get affected. We lost the league to a team that has a huge squad depth. Even in the europa league final, who did we seriously have to replace rashford for instance? Poor squad depth cost us a lot as players almost ran out of gas towards the end of the season. This transfer window is key. Chelsea were in a rebuild, but look at what they did last summer in the transfer window?
Ole needs to be backed with the transfers he wants this summer to resolve this issue (Hoping that players like VDB and Martial improve next year).
 
André Dominguez said:
He's no Arrigo Sacchi or Sir Alex, and surely results could had been better in some games, but we were really in a delicate position, and people fail to understand that things could had gone very wrong. One just need to look at Spurs and Arsenal and see how easy it is to enter in a negative spiral.

Yes, Ole didn't put us fighting for the title, but things are pretty much in a grey area rather than dark.
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What are you on about? we are the second most expensive squad in the world at the moment. It would require a donkey to go in the Spurs/Arsenal spiral.
 
Giggsyking said:
both Pep and Klopp can win the league with this squad.
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It's not even about players, it's about the opportunity cost of time and money. Even if this particular squad is problematic for those two managers, it's a safe bet that with a similar amount of time and money provided they can win the league.

That's been our primary problem for a while. Wasting so much time and money on managers who are simply not up to it.
 
He'sRaldo said:
It's not even about players, it's about the opportunity cost of time and money. Even if this particular squad is problematic for those two managers, it's a safe bet that with a similar amount of time and money provided they can win the league.

That's been our primary problem for a while. Wasting so much time and money on managers who are simply not up to it.
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Exactly, giving money to Pep or Klopp will turn in the end to something good.
 
united for life said:
i’ve seen progress under Ole despite the fact that the squad he has is not completely what he wants. A key positive is the squad harmony which we haven’t seen since 2013. The players back him and trust the process. The football is better than under the 3 previous managers as well. We’re almost there.

although we have a relatively good starting 11, the squad depth isn’t good enough. We finished second in the league; not the result we wanted, but we lost it to manchester city who can lose de bruyne due to injury and still not get affected. We lost the league to a team that has a huge squad depth. Even in the europa league final, who did we seriously have to replace rashford for instance? Poor squad depth cost us a lot as players almost ran out of gas towards the end of the season. This transfer window is key. Chelsea were in a rebuild, but look at what they did last summer in the transfer window?
Ole needs to be backed with the transfers he wants this summer to resolve this issue (Hoping that players like VDB and Martial improve next year).
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You're dodging the question by, I'm sorry, repeating similar phrases I have read ton of times before.

The question is simple. How much time does a rebuilding project take and what point does we start thinking that it's time for this squad to win something ? Because we can keep on the excuse of "he's rebuilding the squad and it's not what he completely wants" for the next 10 years and it'll still look valid for some of you. It can be 2031 without a single trophy and some of you guys can still say he's rebuilding the squad.
 
el3mel said:
You're dodging the question by, I'm sorry, repeating similar phrases I have read ton of times before.

The question is simple. How much time does a rebuilding project take and what point does we start thinking that it's time for this squad to win something ? Because we can keep on the excuse of "he's rebuilding the squad and it's not what he completely wants" for the next 10 years and it'll still look valid for some of you. It can be 2031 without a single trophy and some of you guys can still say he's rebuilding the squad.
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a simple answer (rephrasing what I have already said), until he is properly backed with the signings he needs to have a decent squad depth to carry the team till the end of the season. Any manager would need that
 
united for life said:
a simple answer (rephrasing what I have already said), until he is properly backed with the signings he needs to have a decent squad depth to carry the team till the end of the season. Any manager would need that
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So that's basically a no answer. Last season he signed VDB for 45m to be just that squad depth, barely even used him and people already classified him as a signing he didn't want, so simply every summer if he signed players and they were shit we can say he wasn't properly backed and still needs more time.

You guys aren't really giving any straight answer. It's just ifs and whens, all arguments that can be changed later on to give him more time.
 
united for life said:
i’ve seen progress under Ole despite the fact that the squad he has is not completely what he wants. A key positive is the squad harmony which we haven’t seen since 2013. The players back him and trust the process. The football is better than under the 3 previous managers as well. We’re almost there.

although we have a relatively good starting 11, the squad depth isn’t good enough. We finished second in the league; not the result we wanted, but we lost it to manchester city who can lose de bruyne due to injury and still not get affected. We lost the league to a team that has a huge squad depth. Even in the europa league final, who did we seriously have to replace rashford for instance? Poor squad depth cost us a lot as players almost ran out of gas towards the end of the season. This transfer window is key. Chelsea were in a rebuild, but look at what they did last summer in the transfer window?
Ole needs to be backed with the transfers he wants this summer to resolve this issue (Hoping that players like VDB and Martial improve next year).
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No manager has a squad that they completely want, otherwise they wouldnt sign anyone on the windows. Squads are always improving, I think the card about "not having the squad he wants" applies only to managers that got the job in the middle of a season and valid for one season only. Otherwise any coach can claim that they dont have the squad he wants even if he's been on the job for years.

Harmony I agree, this group seems to have settled as a happy group around Ole thats a plus. About the players trusting the process well its hard to say but we can assume they do since there have been no leaks saying otherwise.

About the football I wouldnt say is the best football. I think a fair way to grade how good someones football is its with results and as dull as LVG's cure for inmsonia style and Mourinho's park the bus and hoof the ball tactics was, they achieve something that Ole's football hasnt. They won titles, sure low tier titles but Ole hasnt even been able to do that.I think we can all agree Ole's football is more attractive, without being revolutionary or spectacular, but being better is a whole different subject and its debatable at least.

About the squad, Im not saying this squad is perfect but some people here talk as if we are getting 100% of out our squad. That the limit is the talent in it, I dont believe thats the case. For all the limitations this squad has I think we are not seeing the best version of it, and its flawed with some really clear coaching problems. Like defending set pieces, playing out from the back and lack of tactical changes between the game.

At the end I think that there's been progress, but its so slim that is not even worth mentioning. Its like we are 1 mile away from City and people are cherring and defending Ole because we advanced one yard.
 
united for life said:
a simple answer (rephrasing what I have already said), until he is properly backed with the signings he needs to have a decent squad depth to carry the team till the end of the season. Any manager would need that
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well thats really convinient, under that logic we can claim no manager has failed, they just havent been properly backed up with the signins they needed.
 
SAFMUTD said:
well thats really convinient, under that logic we can claim no manager has failed, they just havent been properly backed up with the signins they needed.
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Not true. With jose for example, although we won a couple of trophies, the shape of the team and the football we played was bad. He lost the dressing room as well. It was obvious we were going down hill with him.

anyone who thinks we could’ve done better than this with this squad (especially in the league) is just being unrealistic.
 
united for life said:
Yes sometimes 1 transfer window can do the job…on football manager. In real life, it takes time.
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Our rebuild is taking so long that by the time we get in some other world class players our current ones will be old and need replacing. That is why rebuilds shouldn't take years... it's nonsense to say otherwise.
 
united for life said:
Not true. With jose for example, although we won a couple of trophies, the shape of the team and the football we played was bad. He lost the dressing room as well. It was obvious we were going down hill with him.

anyone who thinks we could’ve done better than this with this squad (especially in the league) is just being unrealistic.
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We couldn't have beat Villarreal with this squad?
 
united for life said:
Not true. With jose for example, although we won a couple of trophies, the shape of the team and the football we played was bad. He lost the dressing room as well. It was obvious we were going down hill with him.

anyone who thinks we could’ve done better than this with this squad (especially in the league) is just being unrealistic.
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Do you think Ole got the absolute best out of this squad? Serious question.
 
SS said:
We couldn't have beat Villarreal with this squad?
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West brom beat chelsea 5-2. It’s not about the game, in a game anything can happen. In the final, we drew and then lost the shootout. The way I see the final, we needed an attacking substitution midway through the second half, we had no one on the bench for that. Had to carry on with Rashford who was having an off night. The progress I am talking about is in the context of the full season and not just a game
 
Giggsyking said:
The idiotic board reward mediocrity, maybe they get the feeling of acceptance of Ole from large section of our fanbase that support Ole (based mostly on sentimentality). Even if we ignore the trophyless seasons he had till now, his football is small time football playing only on counters, and if he faces a team that park the bus he is usually clueless.
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This.

He prefers to rely on individual brilliance, rather than coming up with an actual gameplan against teams that park the bus.

It was glaringly obvious that the individual brilliance was missing in the Final against Villareal (Bruno didn't turn up, and neither did Rashford)...

We just resorted to playing slow sideways passing football for large chunks of the game. It was crying out for a creative spark in our midfield; and because the match was being played at a snail's pace, Juan Mata was the perfect choice to bring on...

But Ole stubbornly waited and waited for the individual brilliance to happen (he even waited until 100 minutes to make a substitution)... but the individual brilliance never happened...

and our creative midfield spark (Juan Mata), only came on right at the end of extra time in order to take a penalty.

Tactically, Ole is absolutely clueless.
 
kerryman said:
Our rebuild is taking so long that by the time we get in some other world class players our current ones will be old and need replacing. That is why rebuilds shouldn't take years... it's nonsense to say otherwise.
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If I didn't know any better, looking at this thread would make me think it was Ole's 7th season.

How long did it take for Klopp to win a title?
 
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