Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[SAFMUTD]

Saying we shouldn't change Ole because no one would will with this squad it's like saying we should bring in a RW because we wouldn't win with him either.

Ole is part of the reason why we are behind City. We must improve on him, I don't know why people here won't accept average players but are happy to settle for an average manager.

 

[Leftback99]

Saying we shouldn't change Ole because no one would will with this squad it's like saying we should bring in a RW because we wouldn't win with him either.

Ole is part of the reason why we are behind City. We must improve on him, I don't know why people here won't accept average players but are happy to settle for an average manager.

Who do we get then? And what's the proof they are above average and will definitely get us closer to City?

 

[theklr]

Ah, yea, just like the uncertainty over Tuchel’s contract situation beyond next season has made the Chelsea players play like donkeys.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I’ve ever seen on here (don’t worry mate, I’m not singling you out, there’s loads of you), that the manager having one year left on his deal is somehow making the players anxious and perform poorly because of it.

If that were true, then Moyes’s six year contract would’ve drawn some brilliant performances out of the players andFergie’s rolling one year contract overhis last decade in charge would’ve had the players collapsing on the field in agony.

Yeah, sure, lets just deal in absolutes and extremes then.

Did I say all the players would fall off a cliff and become absolute zeros? No. I said its basic human psychology that after the club has talked about the long term project , process and progress with Ole, over and over again and then suddenly say : Oh, now its next year or bust , it will affect the players.

If that has big or small effects, if it will last long or short, and who will be affected that will vary.

But for players a potential new manager will mean they have to be uncertain about their place in the team , about if they should leave the club etc.

But if you think they will carry on absolutely as normal then thats pretty ridiculous as well.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Who do we get then? And what's the proof they are above average and will definitely get us closer to City?

Who do we get and how do we know it will get us closer? Well we don't there's no warranty about it. But we know Ole isn't going to make it so we better gamble.

Funny how people don't make this kind of statements about players, I haven't seen a single one saying "how are we absolutely sure that Sancho would improve us?" We can't we better keep Daniel James then...

 

[Member 58925]

Did Ranieri go up against this city manager with this city squad who won 21 games on the fecking trot and are about to do the treble? Or does context go out the window when spouting utter drivel?

Odd wager considering Klopp has failed to beat the seventh best side in la liga before. He would also never lose domestic cup semi finals because he’s too busy going out in the 4th round. However, you’re right, Ole isn’t as good a manager as the two best managers on the planet. Let’s sack him and hire one of them. Oh no wait...

I think you’ll find there’s quite a few managers in between Pep/Klopp and Ole in most manager rankings.

 

[theklr]

Who do we get and how do we know it will get us closer? Well we don't there's no warranty about it. But we know Ole isn't going to make it so we better gamble.

Funny how people don't make this kind of statements about players, I haven't seen a single one saying "how are we absolutely sure that Sancho would improve us?" We can't we better keep Daniel James then...

Dan James didnt become the second highest goalscorer in PL, thats why.

You dont think its any type of gamble to sack a manager that got us 2nd in the league?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Dan James didnt become the second highest goalscorer in PL, thats why.

You dont think its any type of gamble to sack a manager that got us 2nd in the league?

Yes it is, it could end terribly bad or we could end up better. For me it doesnt make a difference being 2nd or 17th, as long as we dont win titles we are failing so the risk is to change and keep failing or maybe succed. I think its a no brainer really.

 

[Member 58925]

Who do we get then? And what's the proof they are above average and will definitely get us closer to City?

Illogical. People are basing their projections on what has happened thus far. Evaluation and projection by definition cannot be based on the ability to prove something will happen in the future. What "proof" (I use quotation marks because you have none) do you have Ole will get us closer to City?

If we take Zidane for example, the question you should be asking is which of the two, Ole and Zidane, will get us closer to City based on what we already know about them as managers.

 

[Member 58925]

Dan James didnt become the second highest goalscorer in PL, thats why.

You dont think its any type of gamble to sack a manager that got us 2nd in the league?

There is more criteria upon which to evaluate a 2.5 season stint than a second place finish in a vacuum, in which the champion was not substantially pushed.

 

[Anustart89]

Yeah, sure, lets just deal in absolutes and extremes then.

Did I say all the players would fall off a cliff and become absolute zeros? No. I said its basic human psychology that after the club has talked about the long term project , process and progress with Ole, over and over again and then suddenly say : Oh, now its next year or bust , it will affect the players.

If that has big or small effects, if it will last long or short, and who will be affected that will vary.

But for players a potential new manager will mean they have to be uncertain about their place in the team , about if they should leave the club etc.

But if you think they will carry on absolutely as normal then thats pretty ridiculous as well.

How am I dealing in absolutes and extremes? You are the one who said that the players would be affected by their manager's contract situation, so logically you'd also think that a long-term contract and full certainty in the manager's situation would be the opposite of that, right? And the same situation with another manager (Fergie's rolling 1-year deal) should provide the same uncertainty in the players, yeah?

For all we knoe, it could also be that a number of the players don't believe in Ole as a manager, and as such are performing worse under him. Having the prospect of another manager coming in could therefore motivate them to prove themselves to the new guy and actually improve their performances.

But you won't entertain that possibility, just the ones that suit your narrative since you're just guessing.

 

[Abhinav]

Ole has done just enough to be given another chance next year. However, we need to show a step improvement rather than a gradual improvement next year for him to retain his job. Unfortunately, we are no longer in a position to spend large amount of money every season and are at risk of being further left behind financially. With our financial dominance withering away, we need a manager who can get the maximum out of his resources to bridge the gap to City. Not convinced Ole is the man to do that - its on him and the coaching staff to prove it next year.

 

[dinostar77]

Ole deserves another season, but he isnt without his flaws that he needs to work on. His use of subs in the final was appalling. He only has one method of playing football which is counter attack. So when the opposition sit deep and dont allow any runs in behind he has no plan b.

Hes lucky that none of the ex-utd players criticise him in public so they have given him alot of slack. Hes definitely done some good work at his time at Utd but i dont think hes an elite level manager. An elite level manager would have won that final. An elite level manager would have told his captain that if you win the toss for pens you always take the first pen as statistically the team that takes the first pen win more often than not. An elite level manager would have realised in extra time that he needed to sub his keeper and bring on henderson who has a much better record for saving penalities. An elite level manager would have somehow found a way to win or draw that home game against liverpool and possibly denied our most hated rivals CL football next season.

Lets face it, if the glazers were hellbent on winning the league they'd employ a serial winner like Conte. The standards that man demands of his players would instantly raise the bar in the training ground and in matches. But Ole is a cheap hire, who doesnt speak out to the press. Whos happy to tow the party line. His mates in the media never criticize him. As long as he keeps getting CL every season the glazers will keep him on.

 

[Member 58925]

Yes it is, it could end terribly bad or we could end up better. For me it doesnt make a difference being 2nd or 17th, as long as we dont win titles we are failing so the risk is to change and keep failing or maybe succed. I think its a no brainer really.

That's not necessarily true. If we would have kicked on after going top and pushed City until the end of the season that completely changes the scenario. The application of context is a must when managerial performance is being evaluated.

 

[SAFMUTD]

That's not necessarily true. If we would have kicked on after going top and pushed City until the end of the season that completely changes the scenario. The application of context is a must when managerial performance is being evaluated.

Sorry mate I dont understand what you mean, please explain further. You mean if we would have actually got results that would change the scenario? if so thats a given. I mean if we were champions we wouldnt be having this conversation. But I dont understand how that has anything to do with my previous post.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The entitled, modern fan.

It's entitled to expect Manchester United to beat Villareal in a European final?

People have truly lost their minds on here.

I don't even get why some are angry at the Glazers and them lowering standards. They have lowered the standards so far themselves.

 

[Leftback99]

Who do we get and how do we know it will get us closer? Well we don't there's no warranty about it. But we know Ole isn't going to make it so we better gamble.

Funny how people don't make this kind of statements about players, I haven't seen a single one saying "how are we absolutely sure that Sancho would improve us?" We can't we better keep Daniel James then...

No names then.

No, they don't because that would be silly.

 

[Foxbatt]

Sorry mate I dont understand what you mean, please explain further. You mean if we would have actually got results that would change the scenario? if so thats a given. I mean if we were champions we wouldnt be having this conversation. But I dont understand how that has anything to do with my previous post.

I wonder what the conversation would be end of next season if we do not win the PL or the CL? Glazers did not buy Messi, Ronaldo, Haaland, Sancho, Grealish and Varane?

 

[Leftback99]

Illogical. People are basing their projections on what has happened thus far. Evaluation and projection by definition cannot be based on the ability to prove something will happen in the future. What "proof" (I use quotation marks because you have none) do you have Ole will get us closer to City?

If we take Zidane for example, the question you should be asking is which of the two, Ole and Zidane, will get us closer to City based on what we already know about them as managers.

The same Zidane who just finished behind Atletico with Real Madrid?

 

[Member 58925]

Sorry mate I dont understand what you mean, please explain further. You mean if we would have actually got results that would change the scenario? if so thats a given. I mean if we were champions we wouldnt be having this conversation. But I dont understand how that has anything to do with my previous post.

The big red flag for me was the complete let down that followed going first in the league. Had we kicked on after that but still fallen short, I would feel much better about the prospect of winning the league under Ole. Those "arguing" (It looks a lot more like campaigning than arguing) in favor of the manager refuse to apply context so they can say "everyone drops points".

 

[theklr]

Yes it is, it could end terribly bad or we could end up better. For me it doesnt make a difference being 2nd or 17th, as long as we dont win titles we are failing so the risk is to change and keep failing or maybe succed. I think its a no brainer really.

So, your demand of any manager is that they deliver a trophy within their second full season at the club?

 

[Njord]

In favour of Ole:
The squad that secured second under the previous manager consisted of a lot of players that were either getting to old, didn't fit the way he wanted to play, were leaving or had left, or who failed to maintain their level under Ole (de Gea, Valencia, Smalling, Young, Matic, Herrera, Fellaini, Pogba, Sanchez, Lingard, Mata, Lukaku, Zlatan).

This meant he had to rely on a lot of fringe players from that team, or youngsters coming through. Yes, he has spent big on some players, but I still feel he has gotten a lot out of the squad considering where he started, and that he deserves a shot to invest further in the team.

The worrying sign is that we haven't improved in aspects of the game that we have struggled with.
- Defending set pieces
- Offensive marking to deny the opposition counter possibilities
- Turning dominant possession into big chances. It feels like our attackers always have little time on the ball compared to other top teams. If this is a result of a poor coaching set up or if it is because our CMs fail to turn the play fast and precise enough I don't know.

I definitely feel that Ole deserves another season. Maybe a new CB can help with the two first points, and a new CM, or a Sancho can help with the last one. If we're in the same position this time next year, it might be time for a change.

 

[Member 58925]

The same Zidane who just finished behind Atletico with Real Madrid?

Isolation of recent events that fits your side of the argument, even though you're fully aware of what's on Zidane's resume as a manager, is (more) evidence you actually have no argument.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

The same Zidane who just finished behind Atletico with Real Madrid?

The same Zidane who got to the semi-finals of the Champions League and lost La Liga on the last day with a declined squad decimated by injuries at times this season.

Won La Liga the prior season despite Hazard barely playing. Won 3 straight Champions League titles and Real's first European double in 50 years.

Yeah he's a complete fraud.

 

[Leftback99]

Isolation of recent events that fits your side of the argument, even though you're fully aware of what's on Zidane's resume as a manager, is (more) evidence you actually have no argument.

Easy isn't it?

 

[theklr]

There is more criteria upon which to evaluate a 2.5 season stint than a second place finish in a vacuum, in which the champion was not substantially pushed.

Sure is. But still got us closer than for a long long time, and to say its not a gamble to replace him is just not true

 

[Member 58925]

Easy isn't it?

Just eat the L and go away. You have nothing but empty blanket statements that purposely lack an ounce of context.

 

[Leftback99]

Just eat the L and go away. You have nothing but empty blanket statements that purposely lack an ounce of context.

I'll take the W again thanks. Try harder.

 

[Leftback99]

The same Zidane who got to the semi-finals of the Champions League and lost La Liga on the last day with a declined squad decimated by injuries at times this season.

Won La Liga the prior season despite Hazard barely playing. Won 3 straight Champions League titles and Real's first European double in 50 years.

Yeah he's a complete fraud.

Declined squad fair enough, I agree it comes down to players. With a squad not as good as City, he's not going to come and win the title. Just like a more proven Mourinho couldn't.

 

[Member 58925]

Sure is. But still got us closer than for a long long time, and to say its not a gamble to replace him is just not true

When you examine "closer" more closely and apply some context, you will find out what you're implying is really just the clearance of a tragically low bar.

 

[SAFMUTD]

No names then.

No, they don't because that would be silly.

It's the same flaw logic. No names because you asked me who warrants success no one can warrant it. But who would give us a better chance? Well the best ones are already taken, but there are some that I think would comfortably give us a better chance than Ole.

Like Zidane, Conte, Ten Hag, Allegri, etc

 

[Member 58925]

I'll take the W again thanks. Try harder.

Your response to an invitation to examine the resume of a manager that has a career that spans a decade (give or take) was something that happened a couple of weeks ago, because you know further examination destroys your argument. If that sums up your intellectual capabilities, this isn't a fair fight.

 

[SAFMUTD]

The same Zidane who just finished behind Atletico with Real Madrid?

Yes, the same Zidane that won La Liga one year previously and three straight UCLs.

You must be really blind to try to diminish Zidane to protect Ole ffs. Zidane could retire today as a coach and would be in the history for ever for what he has accomplished, Ole doesn't have anything but "he is building something great for the next manager" trophy to show for.

 

[SAFMUTD]

The big red flag for me was the complete let down that followed going first in the league. Had we kicked on after that but still fallen short, I would feel much better about the prospect of winning the league under Ole. Those "arguing" (It looks a lot more like campaigning than arguing) in favor of the manager refuse to apply context so they can say "everyone drops points".

I do think it's like a populist regime, it's always somebody's else's fault never Ole. It's the players, the Glazers, the lack of squad depth, the climate, bad luck or whatever but never him.

 

[Leftback99]

It's the same flaw logic. No names because you asked me who warrants success no one can warrant it. But who would give us a better chance? Well the best ones are already taken, but there are some that I think would comfortably give us a better chance than Ole.

Like Zidane, Conte, Ten Hag, Allegri, etc

I heard (and naively thought myself) the same before with Mourinho, LVG and many others at other clubs.

 

[theklr]

When you examine "closer" more closely and apply some context, you will find out what you're implying is really just the clearance of a tragically low bar.

I never said that was my bar or that I was happy with where we are. I said sacking a manager that is showing league table progress is a gamble.

 

[SAFMUTD]

So, your demand of any manager is that they deliver a trophy within their second full season at the club?

No, my demand is that they do it since their first season.

Why do we have to give up seasons before we start demanding titles, every season that goes by without us winning a top title is a failure for the club.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I heard (and naively thought myself) the same before with Mourinho, LVG and many others at other clubs.

So because it didn't work out before we should stop trying?

Back to the player examples, it's like saying we shouldn't buy any CBs, I thought buying better CBs would solve our problems but look how things turned out with Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Bailly, etc

Big news things don't always work out, when they don't you change and change and change until you get it right. So what if LVG and Mourinho failed? We keep trying until we hire the perfect coach, we don't settle for someone just because it didn't work out before that's a loser mentality.

 

[Leftback99]

Your response to an invitation to examine the resume of a manager that has a career that spans a decade (give or take) was something that happened a couple of weeks ago, because you know further examination destroys your argument. If that sums up your intellectual capabilities, this isn't a fair fight.

Explain to me Mr intellectual why we aren't dominating under Mourinho if it's all about CV's?

 

[theklr]

No, my demand is that they do it since their first season.

Why do we have to give up seasons before we start demanding titles, every season that goes by without us winning a top title is a failure for the club.

So , you would keep sacking any manager that didnt deliver a trophy the first year or any year after that? Think we would soon run out of managers to hire...

 

[Leftback99]

So because it didn't work out before we should stop trying?

Back to the player examples, it's like saying we shouldn't buy any CBs, I thought buying better CBs would solve our problems but look how things turned out with Jones, Smalling, Rojo, Bailly, etc

Big news things don't always work out, when they don't you change and change and change until you get it right. So what if LVG and Mourinho failed? We keep trying until we hire the perfect coach, we don't settle for someone just because it didn't work out before that's a loser mentality.

I'm not sure what problem you thought Rojo was solving. But our terrible transfers 2013-19 are the key reason we aren't challenging.