Not really. I'm saying that super structured coaching allied with talented individuals is behind both Liverpool and City's success in recent seasons. We may or may not have good enough individuals. That's hard to judge independently of the manager. But we certainly don't have that kind of very structured coaching, and that's easy to judge independently of the quality of the players.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Not really. I'm saying that super structured coaching allied with talented individuals is behind both Liverpool and City's success in recent seasons. We may or may not have good enough individuals. That's hard to judge independently of the manager. But we certainly don't have that kind of very structured coaching, and that's easy to judge independently of the quality of the players.
The thing is we can't play 4-3-3 as Bruno is a #10 and we don't have a midfielder capable of sitting in a single pivot with 2 such attacking players ahead of him, and in truth even Pep no longer plays so open in midfield as we'd have to with Pogba and Bruno ahead of a holder. For some reason we've never used the Juventus blueprint to get the best from Pogba and at this point one of Bruno/Pogba/Rashford won't be here within a year imo and I think we all know which of the 3 that'll be.
Yes, scraps. Smalling being sold to Roma paid for Telles. Lukaku being sold to Inter paid for Maguire.Scraps
He’s overseen spending of around 310m euros on new players.
Not sure that’s “scraps” in any sense of the word. He has overseen a much better transfer strategy from the club though, no doubt.
Unlike Jose, and to a lesser extent LvG, Ole is having to cut his cloth accordingly.
If you're going to take one sentence out of context and ignore the rest of a pretty considerate post to your argument, then yeah, it's probably for the best that we don't engage in a conversation.
I think you're looking for something that isn't there IMO.
Every manager needs the players to carry out his/her vision. Look at Liverpool now under Klopp because just one or two cogs of that machine are missing. Then, compare that machine to what Ole has had to deal with: an imbalanced mess of a squad that is still predominantly comprised of players who came under the previous four managers before him, and who hasn't had the chance to bring in the players he wants to replace the players he's had to sell, as well as resolving the clear personnel issues that have been longstanding for over 5 years (RW, for example). We have four clear weaknesses in the outfield playing XI (CB partner for Maguire, RW, DM to free up Pogba, and a Striker) who need a proper first team upgrade. At least two of those players should have been brought in last summer and they weren't. Those four weaknesses are almost half of the entire outfield XI.
Which brings me back to my original point: Klopp is currently way outside CL qualification and only has his two first choice CBs out. Why is Ole (who has four massive areas he's been wanting sorted for the last 2 years) being held to a higher standard than the manager who is clearly a level or two above him?
EDIT - And moreover, shouldn't credit be given to the manager who a) has us in 2nd despite not getting any first team reinforcements, b) has had to play more games than anyone post-lockdown and up until last week, didn't even have the courtesy of a single week off all season? Compare that to Klopp, who at one point had 9 days between games this season...
I dunno, I was one of those who felt we'd improve naturally this season (I even made a thread back in September on it which many ridiculed) but I do think 3rd is about the absolute maximum we'll reach with this squad and a starting midfield of McFred (and I don't mean that to denigrate them - they're top professionals and wholly committed to the team and the cause, but they are players who should be squad players in a proper title challenging team). If, as I think is possible, Liverpool and City really flex their muscles, and Spurs and maybe Arsenal get some players in, I think we're going to be left behind no matter what improvements we get from the players who are already here. Tuchel with the players Chelsea already have is going to be a massive challenge too, and that's before we consider the likes of Wolves, Leicester and Everton who will also spend wisely.
Ole and the team needs at least two of the clear holes in the squad fixing - and one of them has to be a RW. If we don't get those holes fixed, we're going to be screwed and will undoubtedly be in a fight for Top 4. The likes of Amad, Garner, Mejbri, Mengi, Pellistri, Laird etc are still a year, maybe even two, away from being proper options in the squad and even then they aren't guarantees. Bring in those players and the squad improves overnight, IMO.
The problem with Bailly and Axel has been their unavailability due to injury. Axel has seemingly gotten over his issues, but we are now seeing the impact of those periods out of the game have had on him. He lacks the sharpness of regular game time and unfortunately has regressed. Bailly meanwhile, just can't be trusted to stay fit. I don't blame Ole for not picking him, even though I do feel when fit, he is our second best defender and undoubtedly the CB that suits Maguire the most. The best ability is availability, and in the case of Maguire and especially Lindelof, that rings true when we compare it to the other two CBs Ole has at his disposal.
With Bailly it's been up and down i agree but even when he played well he was straight back to the bench next game, and if Ole feels this way then why have we given him a new contract? Unfortunately I think we know the reason for that. I feel he's to blame for Axel though, he simply hasn't given him a run of games and even the 2 he came in cold for and played well, he was still dropped next game, and this isn't just a Lindelof problem, the whole thing of Maguire playing every game in every competition is stupid, the cups are where he should have rested and Axel gotten several more starts, that was how Fergie used to blood in CB's like Evans, Smalling and Jones.
Hmmmm... LVG and Ole probably spent the same money-wise: £249m and £279£ is pretty much the same when controlled for 5y inflation. Jose is in another league
At the same time it’s not right to say LVG and Ole has been treated the same. Prices went crazy from 2016 to 2020; players who costed 50m in 2014-2016 probably costed 75m in 2019-2020.
So I think it’s fair to say the Glazers wanted Ole to prove he was able to improve the team without too much support on the transfer market. No one can argue Ole didn’t past the “test”.
Now it’s definitely time to support Ole and go all in on the transfer market, if we want to take the next step and fight for the PL and CL title.
Are players such as Hannibal, Amad, Pellistri included in those transfer / net spend? Probably yes, but they are not going to improve the first team anytime soon.
Well in the past year, Poch, Julian and Tuchel have been available, and we stuck with Ole. So Woodward and the owners have pretty much put all their hope on Ole. The only reason to not go for it in the transfer market is because we don't have the money.Hmmmm... LVG and Ole probably spent the same money-wise: £249m and £279£ is pretty much the same when controlled for 5y inflation. Jose is in another league
At the same time it’s not right to say LVG and Ole has been treated the same. Prices went crazy from 2016 to 2020; players who costed 50m in 2014-2016 probably costed 75m in 2019-2020.
So I think it’s fair to say the Glazers wanted Ole to prove he was able to improve the team without too much support on the transfer market. No one can argue Ole didn’t past the “test”.
Now it’s definitely time to support Ole and go all in on the transfer market, if we want to take the next step and fight for the PL and CL title.
If you read between the lines, you will understand that the bold parts might not be my honest belief. I think what I´m trying to say is that, either is Ole a genius, or our players are not as bad as some want us to believe.
To be honest, I don´t think Mourinho´s last season at United, or speculation about the future, is much to go about either.
There is of course always room for improvements in form of new signings, but there is also room for improvements within the squad, knowing some of our players are still young and others are just about to enter their prime. I´m actually quite optimistic about next season, even if the summer window fails to meet our expectations.
in the end, no one can deny that we actually have improved quite a bit since Ole took over, so I´d say we should build on that then, instead of speculating in what improvements we could have seen with a different manager. I know you are not Ole´s biggest fan, to say the least, but to replace him now in light of what he actually has achieved this season, is a little crazy.
To be fair, you also have to take into account that the last transfer window took place during a pandemic and that the spendings last summer probably would have been a bit higher without it. However, I also think it´s fair to say that we have acted wiser in the transfer marked after Ole took charge. Not all of Ole´s signings have proven to be superb (yet) but I have absolutely no complaints about the signings of Maguire, Bissaka, Fernandes, and IMO, also Telles, while it´s still to early to conclude on van de Beek - but there are certainly hopes for him as well (next season!).Hmmmm... LVG and Ole probably spent the same money-wise: £249m and £279£ is pretty much the same when controlled for 5y inflation. Jose is in another league
At the same time it’s not right to say LVG and Ole has been treated the same. Prices went crazy from 2016 to 2020; players who costed 50m in 2014-2016 probably costed 75m in 2019-2020.
So I think it’s fair to say the Glazers wanted Ole to prove he was able to improve the team without too much support on the transfer market. No one can argue Ole didn’t past the “test”.
Now it’s definitely time to support Ole and go all in on the transfer market, if we want to take the next step and fight for the PL and CL title.
Amazing achievement to improve the playing pool whilst cutting down the wage bill to 40 million less than Pool's and 70 million less than PetroCity. Hopefully something can be done in the summer to give Ole the backing he deserves.
Agreed with this, but honestly i dont see us challenging City for the league unless they have a really poor season and/or we add more quality on RW/CF.
This season way, way too much of the creative burden have been placed on Rashford and Bruno, with Pogba being on/off injured and Martial having fallen off a cliff form wise. Maybe next season will be Greenwoods big breakthrough, but we cant really rely on that since hes still just a teenager. Basically we need one or two more attcking players who are capable of producing match winning moments for us when we struggle for goals.
IIRC, we have had eight 0-0's this season. If we had Sancho up there this season instead of James/Martial, i am pretty sure we would have won more of those and thus would have been much closer to City right now
Barca after Pep, with Vilanova and Enrique shows that the right group of players will win whoever is managing. Di Matteo at Chelsea, Ranieri at Leicester, Kovac at Bayern... I could go on forever baby.
No I agree, we wont challenge City without strengthening our attacking options.
So you're saying you've never seen a team play badly under one manager, change manager, then start to play well?
I agree. 3 or 4 goals in those or the 1-1 draw with albion and we are laughing. Its always the difference, those quality players who win you a match with a moment of class when youve played a bit shit in a game. I think we have proved we can beat anyone in a one off match but We just lack the quality in depth over 38 games to come out on top
Of course I'm not saying that. I'm saying with the right players the manager isn't that important and gave a list of competent managers who achieved amazing things because they had amazing players.
Managers can certainly balls things up (Villas Boas at Chelsea) but if you have great squads you basically have to keep things ticking over nicely with a soft touch and things will look after themselves.
Zidane is another perfect example.
Spot on. Nonsense.
Hmmmm... LVG and Ole probably spent the same money-wise: £249m and £279£ is pretty much the same when controlled for 5y inflation. Jose is in another league
At the same time it’s not right to say LVG and Ole has been treated the same. Prices went crazy from 2016 to 2020; players who costed 50m in 2014-2016 probably costed 75m in 2019-2020.
The inflation is a good point, but they did not spend the same if you take into account income from players sold.
LvGs purchases were to a much greater extent offset by sales. The clearout that's going on now is not bigger compared to what happened at that time. In 14/15, 20 players left United. 8 of them were sold, for a combined income of more than 41 million. The year after, 7 players were sold for a combined 75.5 million. LvGs net spend was quite significantly lower than Oles has been.
So you think any half competent manager could take Guardiola or Klopp's squad of the last few years and repeatedly pull close to 100 points in a season?
Surely you must understand that if that is the case, then it applies equally to simplistic judgments about the quality of the manager?
And by the same measure; so you think Guardiola or Klopp could take any other squad in the PL and repeatedly pull close to 100 points in a season?
Just like you would like good players who are good no matter the manager, wouldn't you want a manager who minimizes the importance of individual players as well?
No, because as we can see with Klopp this season it only takes one bad injury to one important player and that winning machine goes to shit. So even the most team-first managers still need the players to get success. Klopp pre-VVD, Alisson and Fabinho was going nowhere but meandering in a perennial 4th place. Once he added those players, the team was transformed. And I won't even start on Pep who took the most talent-rich squad in the league, spent £180m in his first season and still didn't finish in the top 2. Adds another £180m+ on top and then 'miraculously' wins the league.
We are now at that point with Ole where Klopp was. Give him the tools that he needs to succeed or fail, and then make the judgement call after. If he doesn't quite have it then fair enough, but anyone expecting a proper title challenge from a squad as imbalanced as ours with as many as four clear holes in the first XI, is living in cloud cuckoo land.
No, I clearly said that to you yesterday.
Well, if someone says its all about the manager not the squad, they'd also be wrong. But I'm not saying anything of the sort.
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You sure? Took these figures from Transfermarket.com
Manager | Arrival | Departure | Net Spend |
|---|---|---|---|
Ole | €310.58 | €106.78 | €203.80 |
Jose | €466.10 | €123.30 | €342.80 |
LVG | €351.35 | €151.33 | €200.02 |
You're actually my favorite poster.
Ole has been around for an additional winter transfer window as well, so his average net spend is actually lower than Van Gaal's!
The difference between LvG/Mourinho on one side and OGS on the other is that the first 2 wanted success short-term without worrying about the long-term. They almost ruined us with their ridiculous spending - whereas OGS has won nothing granted, but he has built a much better foundation which will not collapse like a balloon and need a total rebuild even if things dont work out with him.
So in terms of trophies he hasn't proven more - in terms of creating a United that will stay near the top for the next years, he has proven a lot more
That seems like a much too high figure for LvG - should be in the area of 130 million. Mind you, that's counting from the 14/15 season onwards. Maybe that's the discrepancy, on which manager you put the 13/14 transfers (Mata etc)? I can no longer remember exactly when LvG entered the picture there.
But if that's the reason, LvG would still have a much lower annual net spend.
Net spend really isnt that important if you don't look at the big picture. If United sign Haaland, Sancho and Rice to take 3 random players - it will look awful on our net spend - but it will also mean you have 3 players in the early 20s who can stay at the club for 10 years - or be sold most likely without a loss.
The problem with esp LvG was that every player he bought had to be sold or released at a great loss financially. For the €200 m OGS has spent we have James (who is 23 and can be sold without a loss), AWB who is 23, Maguire who is 27 and is the captain of our side, Amad (whose value is likely to increase), Bruno (whose value has increased) and DVB (who despite not being a success - still will be worth a fair bit of money)
Not really though. He was just a caretaker manager then.
It is if what you're discussing is the amount of transfer resources the manager has been given, provided transfer income gets routed back into the transfer budget. Relative to that question, gross transfer outlay is meaningless as a measure.
Fair enough.
But adjusted for inflation I reckon Ole has spent less money than Van Gaal.
You may disagree with sum of these figures, but they're all on transfermarket. Loan fees included both in and out. The figures are accurate.
Arrivals:
Player | Club | Fee |
|---|---|---|
Anthony Martial | AS Monaco | €60.00 |
Morgan Schneiderlin | Southampton FC | €35.00 |
Memphis Depay | PSV Eindhoven | €34.00 |
Matteo Darmian | Torino FC | €18.00 |
Bastian Schweinsteiger | Bayern Munich | €9.00 |
Ángel Di María | Real Madrid | €75.00 |
Luke Shaw | Southampton FC | €37.50 |
Ander Herrera | Athletic Bilbao | €36.00 |
Marcos Rojo | Sporting CP | €20.00 |
Daley Blind | Ajax Amsterdam | €17.50 |
Falcao | AS Monaco | €7.60 |
Vanja Milinković-Savić | FK Vojvodina Novi Sad | €1.75 |
Departures:Ángel Di María | Paris Saint-Germain | €63.00 |
Chicharito | Bayer 04 Leverkusen | €12.00 |
Jonny Evans | West Bromwich Albion | €8.30 |
Robin van Persie | Fenerbahce SK | €6.50 |
Nani | Fenerbahce SK | €6.00 |
Rafael | Olympique Lyon | €3.20 |
Ángelo Henríquez | GNK Dinamo Zagreb | €1.67 |
Reece James | Wigan Athletic | €1.40 |
Danny Welbeck | Arsenal FC | €20.00 |
Shinji Kagawa | Borussia Dortmund | €8.00 |
Alexander Büttner | Dinamo Moscow | €5.50 |
Wilfried Zaha | Crystal Palace | €3.80 |
Chicharito | Real Madrid | €3.00 |
Bebé | SL Benfica | €3.00 |
Michael Keane | Burnley FC | €2.56 |
Patrice Evra | Juventus FC | €1.90 |
Ángelo Henríquez | GNK Dinamo Zagreb | €1.50 |
LvGs spending was a lot higher than 130 million
Di Maria was £56 million, Martial £35 million, Rojo £16 million, Herrera £29 million, Shaw £27 million, Memphis £25 million, Schneiderlin £24 million - and Darmian, Schweinsteiger, the loan cost for Falcao etc
I would say he spent £250 million
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