Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Di Maria's angel]

As usual this place makes up narratives based on last 4-5 games and nothing else. All our attackers are out of form and the narrative is that we are an unadventurous/boring team. You do realise that we have the best goal scoring return this season, barring City. Based on objective evidence all managers in this league are unadventurous except for Pep.

We've scored 56 goals this season which is less than 2 goals a game - thats a decent scoring record. 15 of those goals came in 2 games though. Outside of those 2 games, we've 41 goals in 27 games - 1.5 per game, thats very average.

Like I said, we're more unadventurous than not.

 

[OleBoiii]

1 defeat in our last 20 league games

Unbeaten away since January 2020

12 points better off than this stage last season

Progress

Undeniably so.

Ole will also be the first manager post Fergie to get top 4 twice in a row. Baby steps obviously, but an improvement is an improvement.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think he's done fine. We're a better team than we were a year ago, and we've improved our league position, which was sort of the minimum I'd have expected this year for him to warrant being kept again next year.

I'd really like to see us play better football than we do but in fairness it's been such a jam packed season it's understandable that we look so lethargic sometimes, and we are way over reliant on Bruno so I hope that's addressed this summer (would love Graelish). I also think his transfers, Bruno aside, haven't been great so I'd like to see improvements on those this summer.

Next year, with things (hopefully) much closer to normal, a standard schedule and some fans in the stadium, we simply have to both play a higher standard of football, get better results against the big teams, challenge for the title, and win a trophy, simple as. Failure to do those things and he needs to be axed for a manager capable of it.

Mind you I in no way think Ole can accomplish those things but a year ago I also thought we'd be totally fecked if we kept him here so obviously I'm clueless and await being pleasantly surprised!

 

[CG1010]

We've scored 56 goals this season which is less than 2 goals a game - thats a decent scoring record. 15 of those goals came in 2 games though. Outside of those 2 games, we've 41 goals in 27 games - 1.5 per game, thats very average.

Like I said, we're more unadventurous than not.

Even the 15 goals in 2 games show we are miles ahead of Mourinho and LVG teams in terms of adventurousness - I think Ole has broken a few records of post-Fergie season like score 5 or more goals in a game! And the scoring record for any team would look worse if you took out their high scoring games. Over the course of the season though, none of the other teams have been able to score more goals than us.

This narrative has been constructed wholly during the lean period where all our attackers are facing a loss of form.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Thought we played well for the most part, night and day from Milan which baffles me.
Looks as though we’ll finish with around 10 more points than last season, and our win-rate so far is well up on 2019-2020, at a very respectable 55%.
I’ve had my shakey moments with this management in both seasons, but you can’t ask for much more than constant improvement in the first couple of seasons.
Next season will be a different story though, we have to be in a title race then and we must do much better in CL.

 

[OleBoiii]

To those demanding a title challenge next season: will you still demand it if we don't sign a single starter this summer as well? Because that can definitely happen.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Yeah, and I hope we will add two more players that will be able to gain us more points next season.
Football is played by players on the pitch, so what's the point ?

The point is the only thing that has changed from last year as far a progress is Bruno.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

The point is the only thing that has changed from last year as far a progress is Bruno.

Incredibly harsh. And wrong, in my opinion.

But let's pretend it's true, and Bruno on his own manage to win us 9 more points than last year (75 points vs. 66).
If we can add another piece (Haaland? Sancho? Whoever...) who can do the same thing, that takes us to 84 points. Now, let's hope we sign 2 players of the same caliber as Bruno! 93 points right there!

 

[b82REZ]

To those demanding a title challenge next season: will you still demand it if we don't sign a single starter this summer as well? Because that can definitely happen.

Yes, because this constant excuse making narrative needs to stop.

The cries of poverty are pathetic and misjudged seeing as we often top spending charts.

Ole's recruitment has been a mixed bag so far and despite claims some of his signings are being made without his approval (which frankly is bullshit and zero evidence suggests this is the case) he still has a squad, on paper, that should be there or thereabouts after 38 games.

The players he has at his disposal have, for the most part, been with him for 2 and half years now. The excuses need to stop. Ole needs to become ruthless with his underperformers and getting far more consistent performances over the majority of a season.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Yes, because this constant excuse making narrative needs to stop.

The cries of poverty are pathetic and misjudged seeing as we often top spending charts.

Ole's recruitment has been a mixed bag so far and despite claims some of his signings are being made without his approval (which frankly is bullshit and zero evidence suggests this is the case) he still has a squad, on paper, that should be there or thereabouts after 38 games.

The players he has at his disposal have, for the most part, been with him for 2 and half years now. The excuses need to stop. Ole needs to become ruthless with his underperformers and getting far more consistent performances over the majority of a season.

Really?
If we fail to improve our starting XI this summer, you still feel complaining about our spending is unjustified?
And if we still have the same best XI next season, you actually feel we should challenge for the title, no matter the circumstances of the teams around us?

No wonder this place is as negative as it is.

 

[youngrell]

Really?
If we fail to improve our starting XI this summer, you still feel complaining about our spending is unjustified?
And if we still have the same best XI next season, you actually feel we should challenge for the title, no matter the circumstances of the teams around us?

No wonder this place is as negative as it is.

It is truly baffling.

Man City have the best squad, and probably the best manager of the last decade, and are almost certain to add to it in the summer again.

The odds are well and truly stacked against us, yet these expectations remain. It's like there's no wiggle room for common sense.

 

[b82REZ]

Really?
If we fail to improve our starting XI this summer, you still feel complaining about our spending is unjustified?
And if we still have the same best XI next season, you actually feel we should challenge for the title, no matter the circumstances of the teams around us?

No wonder this place is as negative as it is.

Well obviously there are plenty of variables that will make me adjust my expectations, however the excuses do need to stop next season. Signings (or apparent lack of) has been regularly cited as why has, and occasions, continues to struggle.

The general consensus has been next season has to be the season he shows his true credentials. Yet already we're already starting to see the excuses trickle out. If we're still having this conversation in a years time, as far as I'm concerned he's taken us to his absolute limit and there is zero reason to stick by him and his fabled rebuild.

 

[b82REZ]

It is truly baffling.

Man City have the best squad, and probably the best manager of the last decade, and are almost certain to add to it in the summer again.

The odds are well and truly stacked against us, yet these expectations remain. It's like there's no wiggle room for common sense.

Common season would say if a manager entering his third season and he hasn't meaningfully improved a variety of areas we have reached the maximum under them.

How have teams that have beaten City and Pep in recent years managed it? Because the way you're talking is as if they've had some Juventus type grip on the league for the last decade.

 

[OleBoiii]

No wonder this place is as negative as it is.

It reached parody levels of ignorance a long time ago.

 

[NZT-One]

Well obviously there are plenty of variables that will make me adjust my expectations, however the excuses do need to stop next season. Signings (or apparent lack of) has been regularly cited as why has, and occasions, continues to struggle.

The general consensus has been next season has to be the season he shows his true credentials. Yet already we're already starting to see the excuses trickle out. If we're still having this conversation in a years time, as far as I'm concerned he's taken us to his absolute limit and there is zero reason to stick by him and his fabled rebuild.

Have to agree here. The job of the manager is to bring out the best of the players at his disposal. Of course backing a manager makes that job easier as it takes one of the many factors a bit out of the equasion but we shouldn't pretend it is the only way.

I am all up for realistic expectations but already lining up excuses is plain and simple the wrong course.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Well obviously there are plenty of variables that will make me adjust my expectations, however the excuses do need to stop next season. Signings (or apparent lack of) has been regularly cited as why has, and occasions, continues to struggle.

The general consensus has been next season has to be the season he shows his true credentials. Yet already we're already starting to see the excuses trickle out. If we're still having this conversation in a years time, as far as I'm concerned he's taken us to his absolute limit and there is zero reason to stick by him and his fabled rebuild.

If we have the same squad/starting XI, the very best we can hope for is more of the same as this season. That's not excuses, that's a realistic look at our squad, and the teams around us.

Common season would say if a manager entering his third season and he hasn't meaningfully improved a variety of areas we have reached the maximum under them.

How have teams that have beaten City and Pep in recent years managed it? Because the way you're talking is as if they've had some Juventus type grip on the league for the last decade.

I believe the manager has meaningfully improved a lot of areas already. You might disagree, but that's due to your unrealistic/unfair expectations.

The teams that have beaten City and Pep in recent years have managed it by good recruitment. How do you think they've managed it?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Have to agree here. The job of the manager is to bring out the best of the players at his disposal. Of course backing a manager makes that job easier as it takes one of the many factors a bit out of the equasion but we shouldn't pretend it is the only way.

I am all up for realistic expectations but already lining up excuses is plain and simple the wrong course.

But what if "the best of the players at his disposal" isn't good enough? Because it obviously isn't.

And it's not lining up excuses. It's preparing for different scenarios.
It's just as fair/unfair to just stick to the line of "title challenge and trophies, or bust" no matter the circumstances.

It's all hypothetical anyways.

IF we sign a few good/great players, the expecations should be high.
IF we don't improve our best XI, the expectations should be low(er).

 

[youngrell]

Common season would say if a manager entering his third season and he hasn't meaningfully improved a variety of areas we have reached the maximum under them.

How have teams that have beaten City and Pep in recent years managed it? Because the way you're talking is as if they've had some Juventus type grip on the league for the last decade.

Well, there's only really been Liverpool last season, who were riding the crest of a wave while City had a downturn themselves.

I'm not saying it's an impossible task, just that it's very high expectations for an inferior squad, with a less decorated manager to overcome such odds.

My mindset at the end of last season was that I expected us to challenge Liverpool and City this season, because in my mind I was sure Sancho and a couple of others were arriving to put us in a position to do so. When that didn't transpire, I had to adjust my expectations and so far we are roughly meeting them by being the best of the rest.

Same will apply this summer. If we have a transfer window worthy of taking us up another level then I will expect a challenge. If not, I think it's unrealistic to demand we overtake City or Ole is out.

 

[b82REZ]

If we have the same squad/starting XI, the very best we can hope for is more of the same as this season. That's not excuses, that's a realistic look at our squad, and the teams around us.



I believe the manager has meaningfully improved a lot of areas already. You might disagree, but that's due to your unrealistic/unfair expectations.

The teams that have beaten City and Pep in recent years have managed it by good recruitment. How do you think they've managed it?

Can you please tell me what you accept as realistic expectation then? Because you keep dismissing me as being unreasonable/unrealistic when I think I'm being very reasonable and realistic.

When do you think we should start question Ole and his success (or lack of)? The way you're phrasing a lot of your posts it appears the excuses are already being made.

Just to clarify before you come back and ask, I think this squad is more than capable of title challenge and is being held back by our lacklustre coaching and tactics.

 

[anant]

We've scored 56 goals this season which is less than 2 goals a game - thats a decent scoring record. 15 of those goals came in 2 games though. Outside of those 2 games, we've 41 goals in 27 games - 1.5 per game, thats very average.

Like I said, we're more unadventurous than not.

Out of interest, how do you rate our defence?

Remove the Everton and Spurs game, and we've conceded 23 goals from 27 games, which is pretty good, no?

And how about we remove the top 2 goal scoring games for every side - Remove leicester's 10 goals that they got vs SHU and Man City, Spurs' 11 that they got vs Us and Southampton, and so on. I'm pretty sure we'd end up 3rd that way

 

[NZT-One]

But what if "the best of the players at his disposal" isn't good enough? Because it obviously isn't.

And it's not lining up excuses. It's preparing for different scenarios.
It's just as fair/unfair to just stick to the line of "title challenge and trophies, or bust" no matter the circumstances.

It's all hypothetical anyways.

IF we sign a few good/great players, the expecations should be high.
IF we don't improve our best XI, the expectations should be low(er).

But all that follows a faulty premise in "we can only improve by getting better players". Of course that statement has its merits but it is not true per se. You can also improve in other aspects of the game. Will it be enough to compete with City or a full-force Liverpool? Probably not. Should it be possible to win against Crystal Palace, Sheffield United or Westbrom? It sure does. We want to talk about consistency? Then lets come to a point where we beat most of the teams we are expected to beat. And not just by the odd goal. Win convincingly. At least in a way like yesterday. We are allowed to have tight and difficult games where we struggle - but not against so many minor teams.

You may think, that this is unfair expectations - I would agree with you if we single out the target "challenge for the title or bust" but to expect some developments in terms of better football is not. We are golden this year results-wise. We are not golden performance-wise. And this is where the manager comes into play. If he can only do it with "the bestest team in the league" - then whats the point of having him? We are so fast to talk about upgrade-ability of almost the whole squad but all that rationality and logic does not apply to the manager? Seems fishy to me...

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Out of interest, how do you rate our defence?

Remove the Everton and Spurs game, and we've conceded 23 goals from 27 games, which is pretty good, no?

And how about we remove the top 2 goal scoring games for every side - Remove leicester's 10 goals that they got vs SHU and Man City, Spurs' 11 that they got vs Us and Southampton, and so on. I'm pretty sure we'd end up 3rd that way

Our defence is prone to an error for sure but you're right in that they can be solid as they've shown this season. Generally, I rate this team at a very good level and have always done. I rated them under Mourinho and still do now. Neither Ole or Jose have gotten enough out their squads.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Can you please tell me what you accept as realistic expectation then? Because you keep dismissing me as being unreasonable/unrealistic when I think I'm being very reasonable and realistic.

I sure can!

In my opinion, this is the ballpark of what to expect next season:

Realistic expectations without significant signings:
More of the same as this season. We should fight for 2nd or 3rd, but stay comfortably within top 4. We should also expect deep runs in domestic cups, and reach the knockouts in the CL.
This is a slight improvement on this season, as should be expected, but far away from where we should aim to be.

Realistic expectations with significant signings:
Title challenge, a trophy, and deep runs in all competitions.

When do you think we should start question Ole and his success (or lack of)? The way you're phrasing a lot of your posts it appears the excuses are already being made.

I think we should question Ole and his (lack of?) success constantly. It shouldn't start or stop at any time, it should be constant. As it is now.
We're all analyzing the games, the squad, the season constantly, every day. As we should.
But "questioning Ole" doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean "giving up on Ole", when the answer to the questions asked are (in many posters opinion) quite positive.

Just to clarify before you come back and ask, I think this squad is more than capable of title challenge and is being held back by our lacklustre coaching and tactics.

At least you deserve kudos for believing in our players, I guess.


@NZT-One I think this answers your questions as well.

 

[b82REZ]

I think we should question Ole and his (lack of?) success constantly. It shouldn't start or stop at any time, it should be constant. As it is now.
We're all analyzing the games, the squad, the season constantly, every day. As we should.
But "questioning Ole" doesn't (or at least shouldn't) mean "giving up on Ole", when the answer to the questions asked are (in many posters opinion) quite positive.



At least you deserve kudos for believing in our players, I guess.

Do you not see the huge hypocrisy in these statements?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Do you not see the huge hypocrisy in these statements?

Not really?

I disagree with you that our team is good enough for a proper title challenge, and I don't think it's right to give up on Ole.

How is that hypocrisy?

 

[b82REZ]

Not really?

I disagree with you that our team is good enough for a proper title challenge, and I don't think it's right to give up on Ole.

How is that hypocrisy?

Maybe I've misinterpreted your tone or intention but I read that as criticising the players is fair game but not the manager.

Ole has shown very little over his time here to warrant the type of unwavering support you seem to be suggesting. I'm assuming you're just as patient with underperformimg players, or as I said are you hypocritical?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Maybe I've misinterpreted your tone or intention but I read that as criticising the players is fair game but not the manager.

Ole has shown very little over his time here to warrant the type of unwavering support you seem to be suggesting. I'm assuming you're just as patient with underperformimg players, or as I said are you hypocritical?

Yes, you misinterpreted.

It's fair game to criticize Ole. It's fair game to criticize the players.

 

[lex talionis]

Ole needs more support from the board this summer, if we are to make a proper PL title run. We're not one signing away from being a PL favorite, but probably 2-3 players -- of the right quality, of course -- away. If the board doesn't see sufficient financial value in making these outlays we'll continue to drift along in the top four hunt for as long as Ole is manager. And at least I believe Ole has shown that he can ably manage a squad with top four ambitions.

Whether he can manage a squad with PL title ambitions is unknown and can only be found out the hard way. Will this board ever invest the resources required to allow this or any United manager make a proper PL title run?

 

[Redfrog]

The point is the only thing that has changed from last year as far a progress is Bruno.

We played better then last year in a lot of games but I don't think you see it that way.
We are more in control in general and press better.

 

[Robbie Boy]

We played better then last year in a lot of games but I don't think you see it that way.
We are more in control in general and press better.

Our pressing is still quite poor for a top side, but we have marginally improved in that department. I think our best football came post-COVID-break last session. Since then, we've struggled to consistently put together those types of performances.

I honestly think there's a long way to go before our football is consistently fluid. Scott McT somewhat alluded to that in his post-match interview yesterday. We've certainly become more consistent in grinding out results though. It's been a crazy season with huge fixture congestion, so sitting in second is good going. It looks like we'll be comfortably top four this season which is a welcome change. I really hope we bring in some quality this summer and can blood some of our promising youngsters in next season. I'm pretty confident we'll see a discernable improvement in our football if that happens.

 

[AshRK]

Well obviously there are plenty of variables that will make me adjust my expectations, however the excuses do need to stop next season. Signings (or apparent lack of) has been regularly cited as why has, and occasions, continues to struggle.

The general consensus has been next season has to be the season he shows his true credentials. Yet already we're already starting to see the excuses trickle out. If we're still having this conversation in a years time, as far as I'm concerned he's taken us to his absolute limit and there is zero reason to stick by him and his fabled rebuild.

So you expect us to topple city without making any new additions then?

 

[b82REZ]

So you expect us to topple city without making any new additions then?

Don't see any reason why not. As I've said, our squad is not as poor as Redcafe would have you believe.

 

[romufc]

Don't see any reason why not. As I've said, our squad is not as poor as Redcafe would have you believe.

As weird as it sounds, I cannot see why this is not possible.

With a few additions, we could easily have had 8/10 more points since Jan itself. SU, Palace, Everton, WBA - that is 9 points dropped where we could have easily won those games.

We are consistently getting semi finals as well. A bit more quality and this squad can get better.

 

[AshRK]

Most predictions didn't even have us in top 6 and now we are 2nd and yet some feel Ole is underperforming. Doesn't make sense.

 

[AshRK]

Don't see any reason why not. As I've said, our squad is not as poor as Redcafe would have you believe.

Then you are just overrating our squad and underrating City's big time. I won't say we have a poor squad, we have a good squad who should be finishing in top 4 comfortably but to expect them to topple city is a huge ask. One or two quality additions then maybe.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

As weird as it sounds, I cannot see why this is not possible.

With a few additions, we could easily have had 8/10 more points since Jan itself. SU, Palace, Everton, WBA - that is 9 points dropped where we could have easily won those games.

We are consistently getting semi finals as well. A bit more quality and this squad can get better.

Wait.. You don't see why it's not possible, then follow up with "with a few additions"?

Because I absolutely agree that we can get there with a few additions, but that wasn't the question.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Most predictions didn't even have us in top 6 and now we are 2nd and yet some feel Ole is underperforming. Doesn't make sense.

I think the issue is that Ole is seen as a complete joke by a-lot of oppo fans etc, so yeah, no one predicted us to finish anywhere decent due to them seeing Ole as a waster.

If we had Klopp, Pep etc. in charge of the exact same squad coming into this season, most would have had us finishing 1st to 3rd, I'm guessing. So it's not a great metric to judge the quality of players on.

 

[RedSky]

Game Range​	Wins​	Draw​	Loses​	Clean Sheets​	Goals For​	Goals Against​	Points​	PPG​
First 44 Games​	21​	11​	12​	9​	72​	54​	74​	1.7​
Second 44 Games​	25​	14​	5​	21​	86​	41​	89​	2.0​

Despite us being defensively woeful at times we still have managed 21 clean sheets, honestly surprised by that. Either way, we have been improving the squad ever since Ole came and we are still heading in the right direction it's just taking a while. We manage to go on long runs of unbeaten form, the signs are there that we're close to going up another level of form.

 

[AshRK]

I think the issue is that Ole is seen as a complete joke by a-lot of oppo fans etc, so yeah, no one predicted us to finish anywhere decent due to them seeing Ole as a waster.

If we had Klopp, Pep etc. in charge of the exact same squad coming into this season, most would have had us finishing 1st to 3rd, I'm guessing. So it's not a great metric to judge the quality of players on.

That's why I always say if we had Poch as our manager and had similar stats sitting in 2nd, many would have heaped praise on Poch and the squad. I feel a lot of criticism of Ole comes with the premeditated mindset that he is just a shit manager who is living his dream. I feel he is a decent manager who gets a lot of unfair criticism too. Yes he is not your pep or klopp but neither is he a shit manager.

 

[NZT-One]

That's why I always say if we had Poch as our manager and had similar stats sitting in 2nd, many would have heaped praise on Poch and the squad. I feel a lot of criticism of Ole comes with the premeditated mindset that he is just a shit manager who is living his dream. I feel he is a decent manager who gets a lot of unfair criticism too. Yes he is not your pep or klopp but neither is he a shit manager.

I agree with your point. The point some here do not understand is, why there seems such insistence that, if we decide to switch managers (I am NOT advocating it), we could end up with somebody who is more than just decent? I agree with you, a lot of criticism is OTT (even though that applies to a lot of the praise sometimes as well) but not being a negative factor (see Mourinho in his late days) should not warrant some of the unwavering support that is displayed here. I think, that is the way to find some common ground again. Ole is not a shit manager, but there is nothing to suggest that he is such a good one that all search for good candidates should stop. I think literally noone here suggests us going for Allegri or some backward steps.