What would happen if we did change?
Ole Out crew will be happy.
Players will not be happy and may down tools.
Ole Out will say this is why x y z player is not good enough for this club
2 years later we will change manager and start a rebuild.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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What would happen if we did change?
Ole Out crew will be happy.
Players will not be happy and may down tools.
Ole Out will say this is why x y z player is not good enough for this club
2 years later we will change manager and start a rebuild.
Where's that stat from? That's very surprising. What I see is that we sometimes really click and creates a lot, then we can play two games in a row when we barely create. Take the two last games now, against Everton and West Ham, IMO we created very little in those two games even though we scored three our xG was 1.48 against Everton and last night was awful.
I'm actually surprised that people are failing to see that this is the best place we've been as a club since Ferguson retired and that chucking a universally liked manager before his time could be catastrophic.
Guess you were happy watching 2 hours of that shite
People were unhappy under Moyes, LvG and Jose because boring shite like that was the norm
We score a lot and leake like a sieve at the back, so were not boring. If you had a moan in the post match thread then fine, but the fact that you chose to post it here is pretty telling
https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/big_chance_created?se=363
Actually our xG was 1.72 V Everton, where are you getting 1.48 from?
https://understat.com/match/14660
I have seen alot of teams struggle against low blocks, not sure how many teams will have a high xG against such teams.
If you want to use xG as a standard, we are 3rd in the PL in this stat
https://understat.com/league/EPL/2020
One stat is taken across an entire season, the other just two games. Why didn't you take the same stat across 3 games?
We scored 3 goals against Everton and drew because of defensive stinkers. We won a game 1-0 against a team that created 0 chances, with 5 of our best players not starting.
Two questions.
1. Why do you disregard our chances created stat for this season?
2. Why don't look at context for your 2 game statistic?
2nd in xG if we exclude the 1st three games, 3rd in xGA as well by excluding those three games.
I don't know what it is, fans just seem to dislike him. I would love nothing but him to win a trophy and prove people wrong. Fans, media, pundits the lot.
I don't understand why United fans don't want a United legend to succeed and have to resort to lies and bile to get across their points. Some people's points are valid and just like any other issue, I'm happy to discuss these but I'm so sick of people pushing false narratives and resorting to abuse. This is our manager, these are our players, let's get behind them, be positive and discuss any problems or issues with a clear head.
They can't grasp the fact that he is doing a decent job. Most of the Ole outers have criticized and trolled him so much that they don't want to admit he is half decent actually. Let us not forget there were/are idiots all over social media and here who said he is so bad that he will not get a job at championship. Ole has just proven them wrong but their ego won't let them admit it. Same thing is happening to many pundits like the one in ESPNFC (craig Burley etc.) They have all mocked him to the point that they cannot go back and actually praise him. The presenter other day asked Burley what if Ole wins the league would you praise him then and admit you were wrong, he still being the egoistic said he will not and Ole is a bang average manager. I see that trend here too with the familiar posters.
This is true. What the fans that want him out regardless don't understand is we can criticise Ole for making certain decision, playing certain football. e.g Leipzig and going out the CL, no United manager will get an easy ride.
Just because we back the manager and players, doesn't make us deluded either however; people who say he has no tactics or is a PE teacher is complete disrespect.
Craig Burley like a good portion of United fans will not admit they are wrong even if he wins the treble. They will say but City won the league with 100 points.... or In 2010 we got x points but this season we got y.
We should get behind the manager / team / players when we are best placed since 2013. We have a good group of players, good team morale, better attitude and some real prospects coming through.
If it all goes wrong, we can review it then.
This is it. We've known since he was made permanent that this is a 3 year project, if we're not just about the best team in the league next season, that's when we should be seriously looking at his position. For now, everything seems to be moving in the right direction.
I find it's better just to ignore them since the 'Ole out' thread was closed. You only notice all those regulars appearing again when we drop points (like in here). It's not like their opinions have been proven to count for much.
Shocking, but nothing comes as a surprise anymore. It’s difficult to find better words when people wants to replace Ole with Rodgers, Rose and Nagelsmann
In what way at all is that shocking? Rodgers has Leicester 2 points behind us, with far less of a budget, whilst playing better football. Marco Rose has shown the ability to implement a system with once again a much lower budget and I'd argue what Nagelsmann is doing at RBL is more impressive given the circumstances than Ole is doing at United.
-They are all managers who put huge emphasis on coaching systems, pressing, fast movement etc. It's been 2 years and our 'press', is still Bruno aimlessly running up by himself, whilst others watch. It's pointless, disjointed, unorganised - just like our offensive play for large parts of the season.
I don't consider good patches of form, followed by periods of hard to watch, ineffective football the signs of a manager who is ever going to bridge the gap on Klopp or Pep.
Given you are laughing at the potential appointment of those managers, you surely laughed at the suggestion of appointing Ole before we did too, right? A manager whose last stint in England ended in relegation, who was doing average in an extremely poor league?
In what way has he 'turned this club around' if you don't mind me asking? Our good form still comes in patches, there is no consistency (at least long enough to mount a title challenge), our forwards still all look out of sync for the majority of the time. Our defence is still extremely shaky, despite him spending a feck ton on it. The players look like they're playing for him and Bruno/AWB were a good purchase though. That's about where it ends for me.
It's not about the next 'shiny new thing'. It's about bringing in a manager who is progressive, who can improve players via a system. I have nothing against Ole, but if after two years, we are still playing this same football, it's evident he just isn't going to change. He either needs severe help with a new coach or something, who can handle the intricate parts of the game - especially offensively or we need to hire a manager who can handle that stuff.
Pragmatic managers are finished these days. When was the last time a manager of that ilk actually won a major trophy, bar maybe Conte? The majority of winners - Bayern, City, Liverpool etc. all play dominant football with emphasis on passing patterns, quick movement etc. It's why managers like Jose, Ancelotti, Conte, Allegri etc. are all either at smaller clubs, out of a job completely or struggling.
That's really the thing though - people would be more than happy to give him time if we saw enough to justify that. I keep hearing this 3 year project thing. Have we seen nearly enough of an improvement from a coaching perspective to suggest he is going to make as big enough of an improvement by next season to mount a proper challenge. It will be the same thing, we will be there or thereabouts for a decent period, to fall off to Liverpool or City.
He clearly needs to hire a coach who can coach the intricate parts of offensive football, because I ain't going to continue wearing my red tinted glasses and watching teams like City/Liverpool at full blast absolutely demolish teams with far better football whilst wishing somehow we learn how to play like that over night.
You can argue Klopp and Pep aren't our managers etc etc. but at the end of the day, they are our competition - we need to find coaches of a similar level.
I like Ole, I think he is a VERY good manager, but from a coaching perspective - he's not nearly the best and that will never be enough for me for a United manager. We expect the best players, so we should also expect the best head coach.
Well said good sir
Just to clarify: I'm not suggesting we hire Rodgers. I'm just using him as an example against this idea that no manager apart from Klopp/Pep could potentially be an improvement over Ole.Tbh I was just looking for any reason to post that amazing picture
Wompy, Wompy, Wompy. You're hurting my head.
But wouldn't that mean that liverpool should sack Klopp and hire Rodgers again? I mean he has them 3 points ahead with worse players and lower budget.
So would you say that Fergie would be a failure in the modern era? You know, since pragmatic management is dead.
Just so you know, Ole was doing very well in Norway, not average.
In what universe are those two circumstances even remotely comparable? Now you're just clutching at straws. Klopp has managed to win Liverpool their first title in god knows how long, against a very good City side. The team has been decimated with injuries this season. I'd argue they're still playing quite good football too - which are signs they will unfortunately get through this eventually.
Ole's circumstances with United could not be further from that truth. He's been here 2 years, has spent a feck tonne of money, hasn't won a single trophy and still looks a million miles away from getting this team looking like they're ready to win the title.
Klopp has earnt some further time - he's proven that with time, he can get things right. He's done it at major clubs at the past, he's done it at the current club he's at.
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Logged on. Logging straight off again..
No, because SAF's best attribute was his ability to identify changes in the game and adapt. If we're going to be brutally honest though, even SAF struggled against Pep and his style historically. SAF would have adapted - evidenced by his hiring of Carlos etc. in the past. Let's not start comparing Ole to SAF. Not to add, no matter how good a coach is - times change. Mourinho for a period was untouchable as a manager, now his approach and ideology is outdated. The game has changed.
I also don't agree. He won what? 3 titles in his time there? Also Molde have been doing about as good, if not better since he left. I will say that it was an impressive feat that he won them their first title in however long it was. Given the competitiveness of the league and the circumstances, I don't think it was that impressive all together, though, no. Before he joined us as interim, he was coming off his third year in a row with Molde without winning a trophy iirc, that's hardly 'doing well'
You asked. So here you are.
Consistency : We've lost 4 league games since January 2020(2 of which were at the start of this season. Ole just a few days ago said that we weren't ready for the start of the season). So we've lost 2 games out of over 40. That's consistency.
Our attackers : Our team with it's 'out of sync forwards' has scored the most goals in the league this season. That's right. The most goals.
Our defense : Cut out the opening 3 games, when we weren't prepared, and our defense has conceded 19 league goals in 20 games. That's a good defense. Not a great one but a good one. He's bought 2 starters who've been good additions. Harry Maguire said we've kept 6 clean sheets in our last 10 matches and I believe him. That's not shaky. Repeat. That's not shaky.
I couldn't be arsed talking about styles. Zidane's Madrid didn't have a style, did they. They were alright. They still are. How did Brendan get on at Liverpool with his style? Style me arse
All without context, let's break this down.
Consistency: This season we have won 13 out of 23. It's quite interesting you don't mention all the draws or bring any context to all the wins which myself, and others on here, were claiming weren't sustainable due to the football being played. We are averaging a win percentage of 56%, even if we overlook the unsustainable results. The previous two winners, in the previous two years, when they weren't decimated by injuries etc. won the league with a 84% win percentage. That is the level/consistency we are competing with.
Our attackers: Let's have a look at quality of chances created to justify our position and if it's sustainable. Our XG is below both City and Liverpool. There was a time when moments of brilliance from Bruno, Rashford and Pogba was going to dwindle, it's moments like that throughout the season where team play, positioning, attacking patterns etc. are most important. That's where this team comes up short. It's why we are beginning to fall off - it simply wasn't sustainable, which is the whole point here. Sterling was looking shite a few weeks ago, but was still running a muck, purely because of how consistently City open up defences. When our players look off it, the game is fecking terrible and we can't break teams down. The main reason for that being we rely far more on individual brilliance. I agree with you though, we are capable of scoring a lot of goals, because simply put, I feel we have a far better squad than people give us credit for. I just don't think this manager is getting the most out of them.
City have only scored 6 goals less, are maintaining a higher XG (which should even up as the season goes on) and have had considerably less penalties (they're also shite at taking them)
Defence: Why exactly are we cutting out the first 3 games? Should we cut out the Southampton game, where we played against a 9 man B team as well? That would make your attacking point look worse than it is. You can't pick and choose which numbers you want to incorporate. You can't use context for United but not for Southampton.
On to your next point - the fact of the matter is, Ole has spent 150 fecking million on a defence almost, and it's still not good enough. There are 10 teams in the EPL that have conceded less goals than us. Fecking 10. We have spent 150m on our defence with Ole alone.
Funny how things can look without context.
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So much twisting, turning, spinning, acting dumb and blind, Christ like its political campaign between two camps.
You keep on mentioning context. Let me give you some context. We finished the season 33 points behind Liverpool and before the season started not many expected us to even challenge for the title let alone be above Liverpool, here we are sitting 2nd behind an unstoppable city side. You just focus on defence but don't mention we have scored 49 goals this season, the highest so far in the league. That is progress for me. Is progress more needed? Absolutely but it is work in progress for me.
What the feck? I literally had a whole paragraph on our goals scored, firstly. Secondly, let's not be ridiculous, the only reason we are ahead of Liverpool is because we have been lucky as feck with injuries, Liverpool have been absolutely fecked with them and it's been a weird season. They have had like 4 of their starting defenders out, were playing midfielders in defence and still have a better defensive record than us this season. Not to add, they have a higher XG than us - so the fact that we're ahead of them is not sustainable considering they have outperformed us in both aspects of the game, even with all their injuries.
If statistically they are a superior side this season, given the circumstances, what makes anyone genuinely think we have even the slightest of chances next season or beyond when they will be back to full strength, if not stronger? We legitimately need to be an anomaly against a team decimated with injuries to be ahead of them in the table.
Let's also not kid ourselves into thinking we are in a title challenge. We're not. We kept the spot warm while City got their feet under them.
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So everything we do good is lucky or undeserved but anything bad is down to Ole. Great logic. We are second because we have played well to be in that position, we have scored the most goals is because we play good football. Nothing lucky. I bet if arsenal were in that position or Chelsea or Spurs you would have raved on their manager. So stop with this bs.
Yes, that's right. This team was operating as an anomaly. They are the third best team in the league currently for creating chances and the 10th best team defensively. If that's good enough after 2 years of 'coaching' and a feck tonne of cash spent, then so be it, but it's not for me. He's done a good job, but good isn't enough with the level of coaching in Europe anymore.
Our current performance is as sustainable as Jose's was with Spurs earlier in the season, we will be back in a top 4 scrap as the season goes on. That's just the current climate for pragmatic managers.
BTW, I would love nothing more than to be wrong. I love Ole. The Bayern Munich winner, he's a legend, but I love United more and I'm sure everyone can agree that it doesn't take two years to start seeing the coach's system. Klopp came in and changed it quite quickly, so did Pep, Rodgers, Rose, Nagelsmann etc. This is just the football we are going to play with Ole. Sit deep and hope to counter against anyone that can actually play football and hope we can have a moment of brilliance against deep defences, which will open the game up, allowing us to play. We still look terribly unorganised with pressing, the lethargic and slow playing out of the back, the lack of movement off the ball, the lack of isolation of our forwards against fullbacks etc. These are the harder aspects of the game to coach and I'm starting to lose hope Ole can coach them to an acceptable standard.
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Most of your points are just lazy analysis and some are even not true. So I won't bother countering them.
Doesn't matter what you feel or think, the fact remains we have improved considerably. Ofcourse more improvement is needed and no I am not a blind supporter of Ole. I see some really good things and I also see some concerning things. But as for now he deserves the support, whether you don't want to give him that and live on your lazy analysis that's your choice.
What the feck?
I'm literally providing statistics. None of this is has anything to do with what I 'feel or think'. They are the actual numbers behind our performances. If anything, your replies seem to be based on what you feel or think, rather than any actual evidence. Were you overlooking all the context earlier this season when Spurs were first in the league? Of course you weren't, because everyone knew that wasn't sustainable given the performances.You're right, there are things Ole is doing well, he has changed the menality, players seem happier and he's made a few good signings, but that's not enough. He isn't and never will be good enough from a coaching standpoint imo and at least until Klopp and Pep feck off, I don't think that'll ever be enough.
Unless of course, he can identify this and hires the proper coaching staff to assist him
Again you can repeat facts that are not true 100 times doesn't make you correct. You can pick and choose numbers according to your argument but the real number so far is the league table and the number of goals we have scored. Both shows progress. Our defensive record is horrible so I give you that and that is where I have my concerns.What the feck?
You're right, there are things Ole is doing well, he has changed the menality, players seem happier and he's made a few good signings, but that's not enough. He isn't and never will be good enough from a coaching standpoint imo and at least until Klopp and Pep feck off, I don't think that'll ever be enough.
Are we a perfect team? No
Does Ole have to improve? Yes
Do I blindly trust in him that we will win the league under him? NO
ARE we making right progress? Absolutely yes
I want to see how we end this season. If we finish the season closer to city then I will see that as a good season ( hopefully with a trophy). My expectations before the season was always be closer to the champions and not in the top 4 race. If come may we are 4th looking behind the 5th place side then I would worry. I am not expecting a quick fix, this is not a quick fix. I will have different expectations next season. Go and read any of my previous posts and you will see I am consistent with my opinions.
Comes down to perspective. I dont purely take league position as the be all and end all, it's why I found people suggesting spurs could win the league when they were first hilarious.
Agree to disagree, I guess. Hopefully I'm wrong
But I am not solely basing it on the league table, I am looking at some other stats like chances created where we are joint number 1 with City, 65 chances. Big chances missed we are 2nd behind city. Average possession we are 5th with 55.4% behind city, Liverpool, Chelsea and Leeds. Although we have conceded 30 goals but we are 5th in clean sheets this season with 8 clean sheets.
These are encouraging stats for me. Again matter of perspective. I see encouraging signs, just hope we improve even more.
The 9-0 surely massively skews some of those stats. In theory we could have gone on not to score a single goal in the following 7 matches and the boast “we’re averaging at least a goal a game” would be true.
Yes we’ve had high scoring games but we’ve had far more when we’ve struggled to look cohesive going forward. We also tend to look awful if you know who isn’t playing. For me not the sign of a brilliantly coached side.
Also concur that we have no real identity. If Bruno plays well we have a good chance but that’s pretty much who we are.
Yes we’ve had high scoring games but we’ve had far more when we’ve struggled to look cohesive going forward. We also tend to look awful if you know who isn’t playing. For me not the sign of a brilliantly coached side.
Also concur that we have no real identity. If Bruno plays well we have a good chance but that’s pretty much who we are.
If you take away every teams 2 top scoring matches we are still 1st in most scored goals.
Edit: Inserted below quote with stats:
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