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Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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Getting a point away to either City or Liverpool is a very good result. There are no two ways about it, especially since we are top of the table. There is definite progress from last year in points, performance, how other teams approach us and how we keep winning matches from behind. Ole has done way more than I expected of him, although I don't know if he can take the final step. We will find out by the end of the season.
On the flip side, we have to accept Ole is a manager in the mould of Jose (defensive) rather than Klopp or Pep who like to dominate teams. It isn't my cup of tea but the club have decided to go this route with successive appointments of the same defensive philosophy. The defensive football and our pragmatic approach to any big game is not going to go away, we just have to accept it.
On the flip side, we have to accept Ole is a manager in the mould of Jose (defensive) rather than Klopp or Pep who like to dominate teams. It isn't my cup of tea but the club have decided to go this route with successive appointments of the same defensive philosophy. The defensive football and our pragmatic approach to any big game is not going to go away, we just have to accept it.
Very good result? I am not sure, if you look at the big games this year we are woeful, also Mourinhos second place in his time here was nothign because we moved to nowehere. I would like to be positive but City and Liverpool are still way ahead in terms of general play and they will go on a run trust me. We are the most inconsistent and without a distinct playstyle relying on individual brilliance. That will cost us long term.. Just hope we are working hard behind the scvenes, that´sonly thing I can think of Ole is certainly doing. Can´t concede possession like this in ever ybig game. The card is turning this year and we have won feck all in big games..
Reading this thread, its quite bonkers.
People are saying he was wrong to be cautious, but its the right move when you dont have the full balance. Our right side is clearly not balanced enough so sometimes you compensate with that.
People are saying the cbs were the wrong choice, and they were both fantastic. DDG had hardly anything to do except some long range shots.
People are talking about the timing of the subs, but this isnt football manager where you just make a change at half time, and hope it works out well. Its easier said then done.
People are talking about controlling the ball more, but maybe thats why Ole wanted Grealish or Bellingham.
People are talking about our strikers not being clinical, but maybe thats why he brought in cavani, or wanted Haaland last year.
In terms of the game, the first 20 minutes we were nervy and they had more of the ball. But they didnt do much with it. Having control of the ball didnt mean they were creating chance after chance and it was only a matter of time. We blocked off supply lines, and our tactic in the first half would have worked had the ball over the top into space been better or if Rashford wasnt being offside time and time again. We tried to exploit it and could / should have done a better job but the plan was right to use Rashford there.
The one thing I would have wanted to see is Rashford to come off. He wasnt having a good game and bringing on Mason or VDB might have helped us, with Cavani going up top.
But regardless, we still had three of the best chances in that second half, and a few months ago most would be happy with that. Thats credit to Ole what hes done with this squad (who many before the season started thought was only good enough to come 4th at most)
Liverpool werent missing many players either. They were missing two CBs but Fabinho was excellent (and has been imo since he moved there). We nullified liverpool for the most part, and their best chances were coming through a few mistakes at the back from us, or them putting the ball into the box from deep.
We however do need to win the next two games.
People are saying he was wrong to be cautious, but its the right move when you dont have the full balance. Our right side is clearly not balanced enough so sometimes you compensate with that.
People are saying the cbs were the wrong choice, and they were both fantastic. DDG had hardly anything to do except some long range shots.
People are talking about the timing of the subs, but this isnt football manager where you just make a change at half time, and hope it works out well. Its easier said then done.
People are talking about controlling the ball more, but maybe thats why Ole wanted Grealish or Bellingham.
People are talking about our strikers not being clinical, but maybe thats why he brought in cavani, or wanted Haaland last year.
In terms of the game, the first 20 minutes we were nervy and they had more of the ball. But they didnt do much with it. Having control of the ball didnt mean they were creating chance after chance and it was only a matter of time. We blocked off supply lines, and our tactic in the first half would have worked had the ball over the top into space been better or if Rashford wasnt being offside time and time again. We tried to exploit it and could / should have done a better job but the plan was right to use Rashford there.
The one thing I would have wanted to see is Rashford to come off. He wasnt having a good game and bringing on Mason or VDB might have helped us, with Cavani going up top.
But regardless, we still had three of the best chances in that second half, and a few months ago most would be happy with that. Thats credit to Ole what hes done with this squad (who many before the season started thought was only good enough to come 4th at most)
Liverpool werent missing many players either. They were missing two CBs but Fabinho was excellent (and has been imo since he moved there). We nullified liverpool for the most part, and their best chances were coming through a few mistakes at the back from us, or them putting the ball into the box from deep.
We however do need to win the next two games.
I don’t think that’s fair, he’s not one to score and then shut up shop to see the game out, Jose wouldn’t have gone for it the way Ole did in the last 20 mins.
I think Ole is just trying to make use of the tools we have, and ultimately long term he will want us to become the aggressor in these kinds of games.
Eh? Klopp tries to dominate? Ole is defensive? Don't buy the spin! City came to play us with two defensive midfielders and clearly were happy to settle for a point rather than risk going for it and getting torn apart (again) on the counter. And that was at a time we were desperately trying to shore up our defence (so were they, to be fair). Last night, with minutes left and the score at 0-0, Klopp (the man who apparently wants to dominate) brought on Milner, while Ole (the defensive manager) brought on Mason.
Ole isn't a "defensive" manager. We play to our strengths and try to cover our weaknesses on a game-wise basis depending on the opponent. I don't think that equates with being "defensive".
Having had the night to rethink, I don't think our approach was entirely wrong. As much as we'd like to be a little more dominant in the big games, we're probably not going to be - when was the last time we went away from home in a big game and actually imposed ourselves?
However, with that said, we need to improve the moments in which we had the ball. For far too long in both the games against City and Pool, our only plan of attack was to lob the ball to Rashford who hasn't yet heard of the offside rule. Ironically, when we showed some semblance of control we created the best two chances of the game.
Im not sure what constitutes a big game anymore but our record now sits at 0 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses (including the league cup). That simply isn't good enough.
However, with that said, we need to improve the moments in which we had the ball. For far too long in both the games against City and Pool, our only plan of attack was to lob the ball to Rashford who hasn't yet heard of the offside rule. Ironically, when we showed some semblance of control we created the best two chances of the game.
Im not sure what constitutes a big game anymore but our record now sits at 0 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses (including the league cup). That simply isn't good enough.
Do you really still believe this BS?
How anyone can look at our points tally for the last 12 months and still say we are inconsistent is beyond me. We also have a 75% win rate since the start of November, must have been some unbelievable individual brilliance since then. Oh, except here everyone is moaning about the form of Rashford, Martial and now even Bruno. So where is the individual brilliance coming from?
We are a very good team, with some star players. Just like every top team since the year dot (including current City and Liverpool).
Nobody said... nvm
I've said this many times and always get laughed at our slaughtered for being a wum. Our fanbase's expectations are so low right now it's painful. We will never get to where we want to be with that kind of football.
Recommend people obsessed with possession start to watch national teams from Eastern Europe!
How is it possible to claim a) we are the most inconsistent team? b) without a distinct play style relying on individual brilliance
IT’S WRONG WRONG! Sounds like someone who try to convince other people the earth is flat!What do you want to achieve with your negativity? Is it hard to enjoy our progress and the fact we are fighting for the title?
Sometimes it’s best to keep negativity for itself. Have no clue what good it brings. Stay positive and support your team. On this forum we support United.
How anyone can look at yesterday's game and have a go over how we set up honestly amazes me. Except for the first 25 minutes where we were too negative we mostly controlled the game, did not surrender any big chances to Liverpool and had the best goal scoring opportunities of the game which Allison saved well. We nullified their strengths, we weren't lucky in the slightest to come away with a draw and they were more lucky not to lose. The in-game adjustments were very good and we clearly went into that second half with a different approach, and became more and more advanced in the second half when Liverpool started fading away (hence Milner sub).
Recommend people obsessed with possession start to watch national teams from Eastern Europe!
How is it possible to claim a) we are the most inconsistent team? b) without a distinct play style relying on individual brilliance
What do you want to achieve with your negativity? Is it hard to enjoy our progress and the fact we are fighting for the title?
Sometimes it’s best to keep negativity for itself. Have no clue what good it brings. Stay positive and support your team. On this forum we support United.
What was our style of play yesterday and how did we manage to implement that style?
I really don't think this had anything to do with how we set up or Ole. It just came down to piss poor decision making by the players on the field. Our most creative players in Rashford, Fernandes, and Pogba were overall quite poor. Pogba less so, I thought he was alright, especially in the second half, but Fernandes was terrible. Rashford just has poor decision making in general - we know this. And even with all that said, we still could have won the game with two very good chances. We were also the better team by a distance in the last 20 minutes.
It comes down to how you want to look at expectations.
My expectation was that we take the game more to Liverpool than we did, and that we adjust to their strengths, but not entirely give up our entire team selection for it. I think the decision to put Pogba on Robertson, McFred in midfield and have Rashford awkwardly down the middle showed we were more worried about what Liverpool do to us, than what we can do to them. My opinion is we were set out to give them too much respect, and that's how the game played out for 30 minutes. Souness was right in saying it's "hanging on football" where you trust yourself to just absorb the team and allow them to play in your third most the time, and it's risky, and United can do better than that. Obviously Ole would have told his players to be braver and quicker and pass it around more, which improved us along with Cavani's introduction.
But generally speaking we were just set out to contain and break if we get the chance. The bit I don't quite get is how that marks any improvement from last season as many people claim. We had the similar possession to the 1-1 draw last season, we had the same approach, we had similar shots, etc. So I don't mark this fixture as an improvement on how far we've come.
The question for me is not whether the gameplan worked - because it did. We set out to contain and break and that's what we did. It's more of a question of "is the gameplan correct". And that's the question I put to everyone - we have played Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City and Liverpool with this approach and mustered 3 points. Do you think if we tweaked our approach to play to our strengths a bit more, whilst still having precuation in place for the opponent, that we would do better than 3 points? Because I certainly do.
Our record against top 6 is very poor, and although Ole has done tremendous on the bread and butter points, he has regressed in getting results in the higher end of the table (you can add Leicester's 1-1 result to the list too). I think we are capable of a better record than that, is all. A point at Anfield is a good point, but we said that about Chelsea, and City, and even some did about Leicester. There comes a time where you look back on the single points and the losses and think "hey maybe we can trust ourselves to take the game to these guys more". I mean, starting Cavani I thought was an absolute no brainer for example, before we even talk about midfield and defence. He would have taken Henderson and Fabinho for a walk with his movement and it would have been heaven for Rashford, but I was pretty shocked when I saw the line up. After the line-up I was 99% sure we aren't getting 3 points, because that's not a line-up that says "we want to win" to me. I think that's how it played out too, even if we did have 2 good moments.
So yeah, long story short - did it go to plan? Yes. Should that have been the plan given how terrible our record is with this approach this season? Not for me.
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When did Man Utd become a possession team? It’s pretty easy to only play passes if that’s want you want.
Of course it’s more difficult to play more direct and determined passes, and I to certain degree agree the final passes to often have lacked precision. God help our opponents when our final passes gets more right
No United supporter has low expectations (long term), but the majority of us know it takes time when we had to make a big turnover and almost had to start from scratch.
It seems like you’re not able to take inward our progress, or do you also disagree with that part?
Jesus wept, you can fecking talk.
Can you be precise from when you start to count? Shouldn’t all top-6 games under Ole count? General conclusions needs a representative selection.
I mean our record this season has been very poor against the top 6. I can't be more precise than naming the games, which I've already done.
Counter-attack worked great in getting some good results last year, surprising them with him quickly we can break. But Chelsea adapted to it with more caution in their game against us, City were more cautious too. There comes a time where you have to think the approach isn't working - 4 points from Arsenal, Chelsea, Leicester, Spurs, Liverpool and City in this campaign.
The reason they were cautious is because they are scared of the counter attack.
Similar to why we went cautious against Liverpool, they have battered us in the last 3 away trips. Its called tactics.
Chelsea - They created nothing either.
City - Didn't create much
Arsenal - Bad day
Spurs - Bad day
Leicester - Could have easily won that game.
The teams adapted and made themselves more defensive, I am not sure what you want to see? Gung ho football?
Where exactly is that destination? Challenging for the title?
In the start we didn’t even beat “lower” teams. It was a bad period in general more than our performance against top-teams in particular.
After November we haven’t lost against top-teams in the league. We are not worse than other top-teams. This season is closer than ever and I don’t see a worrying pattern regarding our performance against top teams.
In the longer run we have good stats against the top-6 under Ole. I think we have to wait until the end of the season to be able to conclude in any direction.
I know why the games played out - but the point is, the tactics aren't very effective if you have 4 points from the above games. Your points are all trying to hinge on trying to stop the opponent, when my argument is we can do more to hurt the opponent. We did feck all against Arsenal, a bit against Chelsea when we threw Cavani on late, we had 2 moments against Liverpool and feck all against City. We are capable of a lot better than that in hurting oppositions.
Read my posts properly if you think I insinuated Gung-Ho football please.
My point is not to do with the smaller teams. I actually said we are tremendous in that form. But I think our approach to top 6 teams is wrong, and the results are a reflection of that.
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I think the approach was spot on. Liverpool needed the win more than us and they were the home team, so naturally we sat back a little and they dominated early on. Once that storm was weathered, we pushed further and further up the field and started to play our game a little more. It was evident by half time the difference in the game compared to the opening 20-25 minutes. And we continued with that in the second half.
The execution of the plan was what let us down. Too many players being rash in possession and shaky on the ball. With a bit more composure we'd have taken the game to them a bit more, but even with their makeshift defence, to go at them full throttle would have been silly in the circumstances. It was for them to chase, not us.
Being more positive may have resulted in us winning, which would have been great, but it could also have led to us getting caught out and losing, which would have been very bad for both league position and morale. Even at our peak under SAF, when Liverpool were relatively weak, we did not go to Anfield and completely dominate them. A draw was a good result.
The execution of the plan was what let us down. Too many players being rash in possession and shaky on the ball. With a bit more composure we'd have taken the game to them a bit more, but even with their makeshift defence, to go at them full throttle would have been silly in the circumstances. It was for them to chase, not us.
Being more positive may have resulted in us winning, which would have been great, but it could also have led to us getting caught out and losing, which would have been very bad for both league position and morale. Even at our peak under SAF, when Liverpool were relatively weak, we did not go to Anfield and completely dominate them. A draw was a good result.
A point at Anfield isn't terrible in the grand scheme of things, the minimum for that game was a must not lose and he achieved it. However the performance, tactical set up and in-game management were awful. Starting at the back, I actually have no issue with Lindelof and think individually he's a better defender than Maguire, but their partnership has proven shaky and more often than not leads to us ceding ground as a team or having huge gaps between our midfielders. Granted I cannot fault much a defense that gets a clean sheet, but it still left a lot to be desired especially given the great performances that have resulted with either Bailly or Tuanzebe in place of one of Victor or Harry. The pass I can maybe give Ole on this is that the latter two have previously proven their fitness for longer, but it's getting to a point where you start doubting the guy especially since Lindelof has clearly been unfit for most of this season, and has been rushed back on more than one occasion when there wasn't need to do it in terms of performances on the pitch.
The midfield was comical, we played four midfielders and yet lost the midfield battle against Thiago, Wijnaldum and Xherdan fecking Shaqiri. All because Ole continues to insist on playing Fernandes as a striker, and consequently requiring two workhorses to cover the ground of three people. Pogba, who's been in brilliant form, gets shunted on the right wing. Our attack paid the biggest price, with Martial taken back to the Mourinho era and playing as a left wing back, and Marcus and Bruno getting lost in the middle against two makeshift CBs. That said, Anthony still managed to come up with interesting stuff offensively, albeit in spurts given the few times the ball got to him, on top of his excellent defensive work. Ole though still chose to hook him off first, while his two preferred strikers were doing way worse in much better positions. Instead of taking of McT for Mason, pushing Bruno back into midfield and going for it a bit earlier with a proper 433, he waits until the 86th minute to make the change and keeps McT on. Perhaps we can chuck that game off as Ole and staff being scared shitless of the media legend that is Klopp's Liverpool, and subsequently turning into Mourinho regens and coming up with a somewhat meaningful point.
The midfield was comical, we played four midfielders and yet lost the midfield battle against Thiago, Wijnaldum and Xherdan fecking Shaqiri. All because Ole continues to insist on playing Fernandes as a striker, and consequently requiring two workhorses to cover the ground of three people. Pogba, who's been in brilliant form, gets shunted on the right wing. Our attack paid the biggest price, with Martial taken back to the Mourinho era and playing as a left wing back, and Marcus and Bruno getting lost in the middle against two makeshift CBs. That said, Anthony still managed to come up with interesting stuff offensively, albeit in spurts given the few times the ball got to him, on top of his excellent defensive work. Ole though still chose to hook him off first, while his two preferred strikers were doing way worse in much better positions. Instead of taking of McT for Mason, pushing Bruno back into midfield and going for it a bit earlier with a proper 433, he waits until the 86th minute to make the change and keeps McT on. Perhaps we can chuck that game off as Ole and staff being scared shitless of the media legend that is Klopp's Liverpool, and subsequently turning into Mourinho regens and coming up with a somewhat meaningful point.
There reasons why managers make the decision to play like that. You wanted to take the game to Liverpool, at Anfield.
Look what has happened to every PL team at Anfield in the last 3 seasons. You have mentioned playing McFred is because we are worried, ignoring the fact that McFred is Ole's preffered two in midfield. We didn't change it because we playing Liverpool, that is the 2 Ole likes to use.
You also mentioned playing to our strength... last time I checked Counter attack is our biggest strength last time I checked.
To me it's been quite obvious for a while he's very much learning on the job and what we've seen recently is that he's learned a lot. Earlier in the season we were conceding stupid goals, starting games terribly, but now we are solid. We have more control on our opponents and the games overall. I also think he's managing the squad very well. We still don't have the best balance, especially in midfield where we have excellent players but for being unbalanced, and lacking 1-2 players of genuine class that will really improve us, I think you'd have to say Ole has done tremendously well with the group of players he has and has been very good in the transfer market.
I understand that fans want us to dominate matches and it's understandable to want the best for your team. However we are evolving and improving to the point where I'm confident we can get there.
The issue is that the evolution is taking longer than some fans would like but from Oles point of view he's about to get sacked after every defeat according to the media and some fans. Its understandable then for him to take things cautiously and be pragmatic in his approach to some games. Another heavy defeat like spurs could really set him and the team back in their process
The issue is that the evolution is taking longer than some fans would like but from Oles point of view he's about to get sacked after every defeat according to the media and some fans. Its understandable then for him to take things cautiously and be pragmatic in his approach to some games. Another heavy defeat like spurs could really set him and the team back in their process
I agree. Basically got what we wanted out of the game and were relatively comfortable. It's a good sign that so many people are upset we didn't win the game but given the respective fixtures of each team, it's a better result for us, as I think that gap will likely widen in the next 6-7 games.
This. Fans will be quick to post about the 6-1 defeat and talk about PE teacher no tactics then. What Ole said is, we will not be open like that again which is what he is doing.
This is how you build confidence in a team. After the result, Pogba was dropped, played bit part in games until West Ham. Then it was Pogba who said to Ole, this is why I should be trusted, bit by bit has gained confidence.
Last 3 years we have been battered at Anfield and all of a sudden fans expect us to go and dominate Liverpool at their back yard? Where is this coming from?
We need to see us dominating lesser teams before we dominate bigger teams.
People can talk about possession percentage as much as they like.
But what decides the games is the actual chances created. And we had the best chances in.yesterday s game.
So our coaching staff did their job pretty well.
But what decides the games is the actual chances created. And we had the best chances in.yesterday s game.
So our coaching staff did their job pretty well.
Yeah, it's easy to say with hindsight that we should have attacked more because in the end we looked the more likely to score, but as Ole said in his post-match interview, he would pick the same team again.
in terms of coaching it is clear our style is not as sophisticated as of other teams, if you can´t see that we don´t have much to talk about. Of course I am happy and enjoy this run of form but it is evident that we still lack behind some top teams or even above average ones. Have you seen the Champions league fiasco? How can we be so good adn so bad at the same time and be knocked out like that without being consistent. You have your answer.
And again I am not the most negative one but I still see a lot of room for improvement, especially now when we have one generation of players about to peak and a great squad to technically challenge for everything.Iĺl enjoy while it lasts but we are few bad results challenging just for top4. So I have no pink glasses like some dreamers here.
Exactly.
What is Liverpool's biggest threat and our biggest weakness? Wide crosses into the box, we concede so many from it and Liverpool score so many from that.
People will say what they need to about McFred, Pogba's position but that team nullified their threat better than anyone I have seen this season. I know other teams have stopped Liverpool scoring but we limited them to barely half chances.
So instead of saying what is Pogba doing out on the right, what is McTominay doing, appreciate the job they done for this game and move on.
Post match it's hard to know if they were actually a lot more beatable than we thought & we gave them way too much respect or if we did well to give them a relatively even game and come on strong in the 2nd half. A draw is fine and even playing for the draw in the scenario we were in was also fine in fairness.
All is going to rest on final league position, for me at least. The top 7 or so teams are tight right now and the head to heads with teams like Spurs, Everton and Leicester are where we will either come undone or get where we need to be. The big question for me with Ole now is will his pragmatic approach to the 'bigger' games be a wise decision or will we pick up too many draws?
On balance I think it's working relatively well so far and we're hard to beat; City D, Chelsea D, Leicester D, Everton W, Spurs L, Liverpool D.
All is going to rest on final league position, for me at least. The top 7 or so teams are tight right now and the head to heads with teams like Spurs, Everton and Leicester are where we will either come undone or get where we need to be. The big question for me with Ole now is will his pragmatic approach to the 'bigger' games be a wise decision or will we pick up too many draws?
On balance I think it's working relatively well so far and we're hard to beat; City D, Chelsea D, Leicester D, Everton W, Spurs L, Liverpool D.
We re far from being the finished article. We re work in progress - lacking at least 2 players.
But so far, so good. The progress is there to be seen.
I’ve been on ice for a bit.Do explain who and where these sophisticated styles are. Even better would be an explanation as to why they're so sophisticated.
Or could it be that our style is not the one you prefer? You can see the problems Liverpool currently have with having a set system for every match, sooner or later the opposition can work you out. I prefer a bit more flexibility.
At this moment in time, we still haven't quite got a complete team on par with that of City and probably Liverpool, so I'm not sure why fans expect us to match them, or in some cases, be better than them. Everyone know we are 2-3 players off a completed first XI but we are getting close.
I'm just sick of the 'individual brilliance' and 'inconsistent' line being trotted out when results have been more consistent for us than any other team for a full year. Performances may be inconsistent on occasion, but that comes with the above point of not having a completely balanced first XI and your point about the age of our squad.
He doesn’t rotate enough the player
He uses always the same 16 players
de gea
Bissaka
Lindelof/Bailly
Maguire
Shaw
Pogba
McTominay
Fred/Matic
Bruno
Martial
Rashford
Cavani
Greenwood
James
- Occasionally
Henderson
Tuanzebe
Telles
VdB
Mata
He uses always the same 16 players
de gea
Bissaka
Lindelof/Bailly
Maguire
Shaw
Pogba
McTominay
Fred/Matic
Bruno
Martial
Rashford
Cavani
Greenwood
James
- Occasionally
Henderson
Tuanzebe
Telles
VdB
Mata
- Status