not conceding goals is not control. Control would be converting the pressure into a half decent counter. We didn’t do that. Our passing in those instances was sloppy as hell, as usual. Defensively sound, yes. Control? Hardly. They went where they wanted.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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not conceding goals is not control. Control would be converting the pressure into a half decent counter. We didn’t do that. Our passing in those instances was sloppy as hell, as usual. Defensively sound, yes. Control? Hardly. They went where they wanted.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but.... the more risk averse manager today starts Pogba in the midfield 2 and Cavani up front. It felt like he selected the players and system not to lose the match and hoped to nick it towards the end. I guess if Pogba buries his chance late on its a master plan well executed. Bringing on Greenwood in the 90th minute is just baffling though.... you either give him 10-15 mins to get the goal or don’t bother.
Agreed good postThe Greenwood sub was most of all a tactical sub. Ole was a little bit afraid Bruno was going to loose his head
The problem was that Pogba, Rash and Bruno also are match winners. It would’ve been to risky to replace McFred with for example Greenwood.
We had the opportunity to kill the match in the second half. To much “greed” could have hit us like a boomerang, and then many supporters would have been on fire in this thread. I guess naive and clueless would’ve been repeated in every second comment.
But..... I like your offensive approach and winning mentality. I’m also a little bit disappointed we didn’t bring home 3.points. That’s a good thing and says something about were we stand today compared with the last five years.
Never really looked under threat today and had the best chances. One thing is for sure, Ole knows how to get straight to the point with these top 6 games.
I'll get my coat.
I'll get my coat.
I like that he was disappointed afterwards and was very honest about it. He’s growing as a United manager.
I only watched the second half and thought we played really well.
The diamond with Pogba on the left is our go-to for these types of games so I'm not sure what folks were expecting to see. I don't know why we swapped his position and made him play as Right sided CM today, but overall as standard as it gets.
If wanted to go for it, we'd have played the 4231, but as we've seen against RBL (A), sacrificing that extra midfielder for an attacker can have consequences.
Overall happy with the point and might even have nicked it at the end, move on to Fulham.
The diamond with Pogba on the left is our go-to for these types of games so I'm not sure what folks were expecting to see. I don't know why we swapped his position and made him play as Right sided CM today, but overall as standard as it gets.
If wanted to go for it, we'd have played the 4231, but as we've seen against RBL (A), sacrificing that extra midfielder for an attacker can have consequences.
Overall happy with the point and might even have nicked it at the end, move on to Fulham.
I don't know why some are having a go at Ole today? This is the best team he can put out today. Getting overrun in midfield is not a team selection issue. It's more on the players that happened.
A fast center backs lowers the need to have two holding midfielders for added protection.
My gripe is that we don't take games to the opponent whenever we play that combination. It's not even an opinion anymore, it's fact. We failed to take the game to Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City and now Liverpool. Different big sides we play and the same outcome every time. It doesn't take a wizard to know the combinations we insist on just doesn't work.
Not losing was the main objective and he accomplished that. I'm happy with the result and most of the performance.
I think it was very telling in his interview post-match when asked about today's draw he said, "it's only a good result if we win the next game".
It seems to me his tactics have become to draw the "big" games (hope for a win, set up not to lose), and gather more points against other teams than rivals do.
That'd make uschampions (edit: title contenders). So far it's working.
It seems to me his tactics have become to draw the "big" games (hope for a win, set up not to lose), and gather more points against other teams than rivals do.
That'd make us
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Truth is against both Liverpool and City we have been where we would have wanted to be at the start of the season. We do need to see the step up soon though in taking it to these teams, I think we need one or two more players until we can really expect that. We really needed a proper CDM and RW out there today, particularly in the first 30 minutes.
Ole is doing a good job and we are taking the right steps. Come the end of the seasons, avoiding losses against these teams might win us the title. It has been Mourinho's MO for his career and has won him plenty of titles.
Ole is doing a good job and we are taking the right steps. Come the end of the seasons, avoiding losses against these teams might win us the title. It has been Mourinho's MO for his career and has won him plenty of titles.
Well Bailly played vs Spurs so there you have it.sorry but it’s naive to believe a faster CB would have a changed anything. Speed is one of many attributes and in some situation where the defender didn’t read the situation it can help him to recover his or another imagers mistake. But one CB being a little faster doesn’t change the whole way a match is being played.
My gripe was actually on the double combination of Mctominay and Fred with Lindelof and Maguire.
I do concede baily and spurs though.
We are top of the league after half of a season. It is pretty tough to criticise Ole in this position, he's doing a good job. However we have the quality to do better when facing tough opposition like tonight, I'll never be a fan of Mourinho football and would be nice to see us do bit more than backs to the wall smash n grab approach against the better teams.
I dont get why people keep bringing up Spurs, they clearly just were in better shape and out ran us due to a lack of preseason.
Have got to love that we have fans that are salty as hell we didn't go to Anfield and dominate Liverpool like they were schoolchildren. The good times are coming back, because apparently we're spoiled rotten again
Absolutely. The start of the season was an anomaly due to the lack of proper pre season and rest.
As the season progresses we are looking much better.
Ole is doing a magnificent job to have us where we are right now. I’ve criticised him today but that’s really him being a victim of his own success. He’s built us up to a point where I think we were ready to take on a depleted Liverpool side today and cause more damage. I don’t really have an issue with his initial tactical settup but I would have liked to see him push Pogba deeper into the midfield two for either Fred or McTominay (who both played poorly in my opinion) and bring on some firepower. Instead he took the less risky option and simply traded Martial for Cavani. As I’ve said they were there for the taking.
Yes but we played McFred also with Bailly, even against weak teams like Villa. In theory we can play a higher line if a CB is faster, but in reality we havent seen it. There are so many other things that must work as well plus I’m not even sure Ole wants to play higher line. Maybe he’s happy with playing the football that took us to top of the table?
Bailly is faster than Lindelof but not as good with the ball, especially not under pressure, which also is important if we want to dominate.
Pretty much what I said earlier. Definite sign of progress and the team were disappointed too. Maguire said they started too timidly. They will learn from this.
I don't think Bailly has shown to be materially les competent on the ball, and going by today particularly the first half, there was nothing dominant in the performance.
Ole can do what he wants experiment wise, I said that before the game too. I think cb partnerships are neither here nor there. But McFred is an expirement that needs to stop. We moved Pogba right, had Martial left just to accommodate around it which didn't help the balance whatsoever.
I don’t think the initial set up was the issue. I think the issue has been with gambling on the subs ie going for it, when it’s clear the game can be won. Subs are too safe and predictable and I think it’s something even the most diehard Ole fans would question him on in his full Utd managerial career.
Not necessarily pointing to this game as the prime example but certainly the Chelsea & Arsenal games, and could be argued with City in PL as well, who didn’t look great on paper, let alone in the actual game.
I know, I know, you’re gonna point out top of the league, but do you not feel in certain games it’s a case of waiting and hoping it clicks, rather than forcing the issue? Not saying this result is a sackable offence mind, but feels like we’re being too conservative against traditional rivals this season.
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So much wrong in this so I’ll just address a few things:
- Lindelof hasn’t been beaten for pace in any games this season he’s not slow even today he kept pace with Mane.
- Bailly is slightly faster than Lindelof but Bailly would not have meant we would have played a high press.
- The way we play is a tactic. Contain, pressure, rest, contain and then 70mins plus depending on the score go for it. It suits our squad as we have a good depth and the fitness in the side to do this well. Bailly in the team doesn’t change that.
- Dier and Vertonghen is not an example of a speedy partnership
- Inviting Liverpool on frees up space behind them. With Fabinho and Henderson at the back you want them exposed for the counter as much as possible to exploit this not being their natural position. Pressing high up the pitch allows Liverpool to play over us and slip Mane and Salah in behind. Henderson and Fabinho negated the ability to press high as both being midfielders are composed on the ball. Context is important.
- Pogba being played out wide is also a sensible tactical choice. His size advantage over the fullbacks means when Liverpool pressed high we had a genuine outlet to contest aerials. It also meant drawing other players out of position to back up TAA in the air.
- Lindelof and Maguire are the better long passers of our CBs and we were never going to take the game to Liverpool from minute one. We were (and still are) 3 points ahead and away from home to the champions of last season. Going toe to toe would have been a stupid emotional decision that would have cost us the game.
He got the tactics spot on and prepared excellently for the game from the evidence at hand. Sadly we couldn't take our chances because I believe we should've won the game.
Yeah, I agree. Same story as the city game, if we put one of the chances away it’s 1-0, 3 points and everyone’s singing his praises.
What I really like is he seems to always get the second half tactics right to nullify whatever the opposition are hurting us with.
Yep this 100%.
feck knows but we got overrun in midfield. I’m not saying I know the tactics
Thought the game plan today was to stop them scoring before anything else, then play a lot of high risk passes at the other end to try to nick a goal without worrying too much about losing possession. He got the clean sheet with De Gea only really making one good save (from a shot from distance) and Pogba or Bruno both came close to getting that winner. Frustrating performance to watch but I think the idea was proven sound enough.
I liked what he did today. Looked mature and defensively solid and we were enough of a threat going forward to justify the way we played. The issue we had is we have no attacking players in form. Bruno hasn't been productive at all in the last few games, Martial and Rashford have been off the boil, Greenwood is having a bad season and Cavani's season has been horribly stop start. If we had our attackers firing coming into this game I think we win it. And indeed we could have won it with the 2 big chances we had.
Having to weather an early storm at Anfield is Liverpool is expected. Even under SAF go look at our game where O'Shea won the game 1-0 and we got battered for most of the game and couldn't beat Liverpool's press. And then the times it didn't go our way like 08/09 and 09/10 we again just got overwhelmed.
Only fault I'd say is bringing Greenwood on at 88 minutes - was this meant to be an attempt to try get a winner? Because if it was it was stupidly late. In a game where a draw is a decent result it's not that annoying, but in games where we genuinely need a goal, making his subs too late is common theme. What is Greenwood meant to do in 2 minutes (same with Donny in the City game last week).
Having to weather an early storm at Anfield is Liverpool is expected. Even under SAF go look at our game where O'Shea won the game 1-0 and we got battered for most of the game and couldn't beat Liverpool's press. And then the times it didn't go our way like 08/09 and 09/10 we again just got overwhelmed.
Only fault I'd say is bringing Greenwood on at 88 minutes - was this meant to be an attempt to try get a winner? Because if it was it was stupidly late. In a game where a draw is a decent result it's not that annoying, but in games where we genuinely need a goal, making his subs too late is common theme. What is Greenwood meant to do in 2 minutes (same with Donny in the City game last week).
agree. Was more important for us to avoid defeat than win today imo. Wasnt an adventurous performance. Love the way mctominay can pick up the ball and take it past a couple of players in tight situations. Did it a few times today to bring the ball forwards through the press. Always so solid with him and fred in front of the back 4. Even so still thought we could have won the game but for allison. I’d like to see the board add a player or two in this window as i genuinely think we can carry a title challenge. To still even be in the hunt is progress on the last few years
Point was good.
I don't mind the set-up, but we really need to get better at ball circulation in these big games.
It's our biggest problem IMO. Too often, we play rushed forward passes for no reason.
I don't mind the set-up, but we really need to get better at ball circulation in these big games.
It's our biggest problem IMO. Too often, we play rushed forward passes for no reason.
Ole got it right today. I can look past the Bruno shot, but Pogba was teed up perfectly and should have smashed it past Alisson.
There’s probably a better thread to state this but I’ll state here (stating the obvious) that we’re in the hunt for the PL trophy and should do everything we can to bring in Grealish in January to take us from contender to favorite.
There’s more to discuss, but I’m still buzzing over the glorious draw that should have been a win, so I’ll leave it at that for now.
There’s probably a better thread to state this but I’ll state here (stating the obvious) that we’re in the hunt for the PL trophy and should do everything we can to bring in Grealish in January to take us from contender to favorite.
There’s more to discuss, but I’m still buzzing over the glorious draw that should have been a win, so I’ll leave it at that for now.
if Bruno or Pogba tucked away one of those easy chances people would be calling it a masterclass
Agreed. Conversely, if Liverpool had scored in the dying embers of the game (which they didn't thanks to our organised back line and proper game plan), the pitchforks would have been out. A point is better than none at all in the larger scheme of things. I'm happy with how we set out to play.
Given where we are at, the approach and performance was probably as much as we were ever likely to get. And certainly a draw isn't a bad result.
However, going forward, I don't think it's unreasonable to be looking for more, be it our ability to impose ourselves on the better teams or even just the quality of our passing. And unfortunately it seems unlikely to be forthcoming at this point. Sure, we can and have improved simply by buying better players, but in an ideal world we would have a stronger coach, despite my fondness for him.
However, going forward, I don't think it's unreasonable to be looking for more, be it our ability to impose ourselves on the better teams or even just the quality of our passing. And unfortunately it seems unlikely to be forthcoming at this point. Sure, we can and have improved simply by buying better players, but in an ideal world we would have a stronger coach, despite my fondness for him.
Nothing much wrong he is doing now. He seems to have learned on the job and get a lot of things sorted out. He now needs I would say a top class DM who can play on his own. If we get two midfield players who can hold on their own, then the 4 attacking players do not need to defend much. I still would like him to get and upgrade on Rashford. He makes too many wrong decisions.
It isn't unreasonable but I'm not sure this is the time to criticize him. We're disappointed that we haven't lost at Anfield, which should show how far this team has evolved. 2 months ago (or even 2), that would have constituted a good result.
I understand your larger point, though. I'm not sure we can get to the next level with Solskjaer because I'm not sure sitting back and hoping to exploit mistakes against an opponent who is dictating the match against you is the best long-term strategy to win the title. But let's wait and let's see how this season plays out.
When you live in Australia and have so set the alarm to get out of bed at 3.30am to watch a game such as this one, it can be a little underwhelming. At least that’s the way it felt. I’m not sure what the answer is, other than stating the obvious in that we are still lacking one or two world class players in key positions.
Always the answer... just a suggestion, how about developing the players that we have? Henderson and Fabinho as CB, are they world-class there? Shaqiri in midfield? No, I don't buy it. We can play better with the squad we have.
I think there's a lot being made about my preference for Bailly and Maguire. My bigger gripe is having the defensive combination of McFred, which I think Ole does to cover the slowness at the back (Spurs example aside, where he did McFred even though Bailly played). That's why I felt if he played Bailly he might have been able to afford a pivot of Fred + Pogba instead of 2 holding players. But just to provide a counter thought to your points (and remember these are all opinions so it's not a case of right or wrong):So much wrong in this so I’ll just address a few things:
- Lindelof hasn’t been beaten for pace in any games this season he’s not slow even today he kept pace with Mane
- Bailly is slightly faster than Lindelof but Bailly would not have meant we would have played a high press.
- The way we play is a tactic. Contain, pressure, rest, contain and then 70mins plus depending on the score go for it. It suits our squad as we have a good depth and the fitness in the side to do this well. Bailly in the team doesn’t change that.
- Dier and Vertonghen is not an example of a speedy partnership
- Inviting Liverpool on frees up space behind them. With Fabinho and Henderson at the back you want them exposed for the counter as much as possible to exploit this not being their natural position. Pressing high up the pitch allows Liverpool to play over us and slip Mane and Salah in behind. Henderson and Fabinho negated the ability to press high as both being midfielders are composed on the ball. Context is important.
- Pogba being played out wide is also a sensible tactical choice. His size advantage over the fullbacks means when Liverpool pressed high we had a genuine outlet to contest aerials. It also meant drawing other players out of position to back up TAA in the air.
- Lindelof and Maguire are the better long passers of our CBs and we were never going to take the game to Liverpool from minute one. We were (and still are) 3 points ahead and away from home to the champions of last season. Going toe to toe would have been a stupid emotional decision that would have cost us the game.
1. He rarely is beaten for pace against the top sides, because when a slow combination is played we tend to have a more conservative approach with two holding midfielders to provide additional cover on top. That said he was caught out yesterday itself with a great ball down the channel (think it was Mane who played it, or Mane who was on the receiving end). Gary Neville touched on it on commentary as well, saying that's where United miss Eric Bailly, as Maguire looked in trouble. We were fortunate Liverpool were really blunt in that move actually.
2. Bailly is faster than Lindelof is. I'm not suggesting we press like Liverpool, but in my honest opinion, Bailly on paper would be better suited to quicker players than Lindelof would. My main annoyance is when that Lindelof+Maguire is played with McFred. I hate seeing McFred play in big games more though, it just shouldn't happen in games we are looking to control more and win.
3. After Chelsea/City/Arsenal/Spurs this season (2 points in all those games), I'm well rehearsed with this tactic, and again do not think it was well executed yesterday. I don't think the first 45 minutes served us well at all, because we played too many players out of position to accommodate for a blunt defensive midfield duo. You play a CM on the right for the first time (ever?), a left forward as a number 9, and a player who prefers the 9 on the left - that was a lot of tinkering offensively. In fact, Ole conceded at full time that he didn't like how the game played out for the first half at all. Our best football was when Cavani was brought on, and Rashford moved back left, so there was a focal point where we can focus on our strengths more.
4. Dier isn't a speedster but he's quick enough in recoveries to make up for Vertonghen's shortcomings. And all my other examples still hold too.
5. Pressing a bit higher against Liverpool can yield better returns than containing for too long. I don't think it was in the script to play "hanging on football" for the first 30 minutes of the game, where they dominate most of the ball and try to whip balls in, have Firminho take a few good opportunities only to scuff them, etc. Ole even said he wasn't pleased with it. We actually started pressing more and a bit higher (w/Cavani) . Aston Villa showed how you can press adequately and find gaps, Southampton did a good job on their press too.
6 . Honestly he's a beast, you can use the physical argument on anything, i.e. to put him on Trent on the left, or Thiago on the middle, or Robertson on the left. But my issue with the approach was we spent too much focusing on the team rather than focusing on ourselves. McFred to break up their play, Pogba to jump on Robertson, and then on top you have Rashford in a less comfortable position. It felt like we gave them too much respect, and only when we decided to look at ourselves did we start playing.
7. I agree with them being better long passers, but you've massively overcooked the latter part of your point. I'm not saying press the shit out of them and go ultra attack, but make one thing clear - this is not the same Liverpool side that won the league and looked formidable. Everyone and their dog knows that, and I feel we could have played the team rather than played the reputation (as Neville had put).
All in all, Ole had every right to play the team he did because 1) he got us top in the first place so his goodwill is massive even with people who doubted him, like myself and 2) he didn't lose so he's vindicated on hindsight. But I am speaking solely from a performance perspective - I felt the starting lineup was reactive, was lending too much in trying to contain what is a very beatable team, and was inbalanced with too many offensive players out of position. And it showed in the game yesterday UNTIL Cavani came on, and Rashford reverted left.
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