Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Zlatan 7 said:
I agree it shouldn’t make sense but it does, I’d say Oles time at cardiff and lack of experience far outweighs that he used to be a player for us in these debates though, as we see with the pe teacher comments.

It was a mistake keeping fred on, in hindsight. It was a calculated risk but we started the half well and should have taken advantage of that risk. We didn’t. So it turns out to be a mistake to attack Ole with.
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Alright but I'm not sure we can blame people for giving Ole stick because of his rather underwhelming career as a manager before he got the United job, I'd say that if anything is the most valid argument against him. Any post calling him PE teacher should be ignored though.
 
RumHam said:
I didn't miss it because it didn't happen. It was clear he was struggling but if he couldn't carry on he would have / should have gone down so play is stopped and we can make the change, he didn't.

There was one incident where the change to wing-backs yielded them a chance which DDG saved, from the resulting corner (i think) they scored. There were multiple times in the half when Rashford was a key element of countering them down that channel.
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It didn't happen eh?

Funny that. How can people not call out when Ole fecks up. Last night he got so much right but when it came to the big moments he got then completely wrong.


 
laughtersassassin said:
Lazy argument tbh.
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tomaldinho1 said:
Proper head in the sand stuff
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So what's the rationale for sacking him? Because we lost against PSG? Or is it because of our dreadful start to the season that leaves us an insurmountable 5 points off top with a game in hand? Or is it because of he's PE teacher tactics despite beating top coaches multiple times?

Like many have said, name this alternative manager who will return us to glory within 2 seasons.
 
Lynty said:
So what's the rationale for sacking him? Because we lost against PSG? Or is it because of our dreadful start to the season that leaves us an insurmountable 5 points off top with a game in hand? Or is it because of he's PE teacher tactics despite beating top coaches multiple times?

Like many have said, name this alternative manager who will return us to glory within 2 seasons.
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Its more to do with the fact that he`s managed us for over 100 games and we are still such an inconsistent team and his in game management being inconsistent as well which happens to be masked by a couple of good results. The problem has not yet fully manifested itself yet now due to a few results buying him time but when we miss out on top 4 you`ll see why we want Ole out
And I have a question do you honestly think there is absolutely and completely no manager in the world can do a better job than someone who`s best managerial stint was at Molde and Cardiff? Anyway my answer is Pochettino taking Southampton from being relegation fodder to a solid mid table club(with limited resources) plus taking Spurs from an average PL side to regular top 4 contenders, a regular CL team(again with a limited budget) and Tottenham`s first ever CL final after spending zilch the previous summer is special with our team and budget he`d work wonders at Utd. To put this into context Ole signed 17 players in a span of one year at Cardiff with a budget big for Cardiff`s side and still got them relegated and underperforming in the Championship
 
Lynty said:
So what's the rationale for sacking him? Because we lost against PSG? Or is it because of our dreadful start to the season that leaves us an insurmountable 5 points off top with a game in hand? Or is it because of he's PE teacher tactics despite beating top coaches multiple times?

Like many have said, name this alternative manager who will return us to glory within 2 seasons.
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He's critiquing your argument, nothing more. It's completely illogical.
 
RkkMan said:
Its more to do with the fact that he`s managed us for over 100 games and we are still such an inconsistent team and his in game management being inconsistent as well which happens to be masked by a couple of good results. The problem has not yet fully manifested itself yet now due to a few results buying him time but when we miss out on top 4 you`ll see why we want Ole out
And I have a question do you honestly think there is absolutely and completely no manager in the world can do a better job than someone who`s best managerial stint was at Molde and Cardiff? Anyway my answer is Pochettino taking Southampton from being relegation fodder to a solid mid table club(with limited resources) plus taking Spurs from an average PL side to regular top 4 contenders, a regular CL team(again with a limited budget) and Tottenham`s first ever CL final after spending zilch the previous summer is special with our team and budget he`d work wonders at Utd. To put this into context Ole signed 17 players in a span of one year at Cardiff with a budget big for Cardiff`s side and still got them relegated and underperforming in the Championship
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Of course I think there are better managers. I don't have any confidence in us identifying them.

As for improvement, our run at the end of the season was clear improvement.

Lingard had close to 2000mins last season
James over 3000mins
Andrea's over 2000mins

This season our sqauds in much better shape. And I do think we can go toe to toe with any team in the league.

We've tried multiple managers with different styles and experience. Won't hurt us much to try a little patience.

If he fails to hit targets, get him out - like you would with an manager in any profession. So far, that's not been the case.
 
Everyone and their dog was shouting for Fred to be subbed off. Ole showed his immaturity and inexperience by allowing his own emotions (annoyance with PSG players behaviour) to cloud his judgement. SAF would have smelled the lack of emotional control from Fred and clipped him quickly.

Long way to go for Ole. Luckily, it was a major lesson in human psychology for him.
 
Lynty said:
So what's the rationale for sacking him? Because we lost against PSG? Or is it because of our dreadful start to the season that leaves us an insurmountable 5 points off top with a game in hand? Or is it because of he's PE teacher tactics despite beating top coaches multiple times?

Like many have said, name this alternative manager who will return us to glory within 2 seasons.
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It's because after 2 years, 100+ games and hundreds of millions spent, he still doesn't know his best team and we're wildly inconsistent still. He still takes forever to make subs, his naivety is constantly taken advantage of in the high stakes matches. He only knows how to be the underdog, whenever the pressure and onus is on us to win instead, we choke.

Where is the progression here?

We finished 3rd which was a relief, but it was far from excellent. We finished on 66 points. It was a historically low bar for top 4 last season, we wouldn't have made it in 5/6 last season's. Jose finished 6th on 69 points in his 1st season which was considered a failure.

But you're missing the point. Is Ole the best manager we can find? We're not an apprenticeship where he gets to learn on the job at our expense.

You don't persist with mediocrity because you're scared of change. Top clubs change manager all the time, its no big deal.

Appoint whoever we believe is the best manager out there, whether it's Poch, Rose, Hassenhütl, Nagelsmann, whoever... then if they don't work out for whatever reason, we change again, until it does work out. Like a top club should.
 
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Majima said:
It's because after 2 years, 100+ games and hundreds of millions spent, he still doesn't know his best team and we're wildly inconsistent still. He still takes forever to make subs, his naivety is constantly taken advantage of in the high stakes matches. He only knows how to be the underdog, whenever the pressure and onus is on us to dominate instead (see home record vs. weaker teams), we choke.

Where is the progression here?

We finished 3rd which was a relief, but it was far from excellent. We finished on 66 points. It was a historically low bar for top 4 last season, we wouldn't have made it in 5/6 last season's. Jose finished 6th on 69 points in his 1st season which was considered a failure.

But you're missing the point. Is Ole the best manager we can find? We're not an apprenticeship where he gets to learn on the job at our expense.

You don't persist with mediocrity because you're scared of change. Top clubs change manager all the time, its no big deal.

Appoint whoever we believe is the best manager out there, whether it's Poch, Rose, Hassenhütl, Nagelsmann, whoever... then if they don't work out for whatever reason, we change again, until it does work out. Like a top club should.
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Whether you think he's good enough or not it makes no sense to sack Ole now
 
The media and many negative fans seem to love a united set back. We just lost unluckily to last years finalists. I agree he likely should have taken Fred off, but the more prominent point and responsibility is on Fred for head butting within 10 mins then fouling due to his poor touch. If Fred didn’t headbutt then there would be little to call ole out on last night. Add in the numerous missed chances last night and again I find it hard to find much fault in him. As usual the next few games are critical, they all are but if we win Saturday and qualify Tuesday I really do not get what everyone is so up in arms about. If we don’t then ok I get it but we are in great positions in all competitions so far and we are only going to get better the strikers can’t miss fire for ever.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Whether you think he's good enough or not it makes no sense to sack Ole now
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It obviously does, because it gives the new manager a chance to come in during a season that is very much there for the taking, and it gives the manager a chance to assess the squad for half a season before his first summer transfer window.

When is the right time to change managers in your opinion?
 
LJJT said:
The media and many negative fans seem to love a united set back. We just lost unluckily to last years finalists. I agree he likely should have taken Fred off, but the more prominent point and responsibility is on Fred for head butting within 10 mins then fouling due to his poor touch. If Fred didn’t headbutt then there would be little to call ole out on last night. Add in the numerous missed chances last night and again I find it hard to find much fault in him. As usual the next few games are critical, they all are but if we win Saturday and qualify Tuesday I really do not get what everyone is so up in arms about. If we don’t then ok I get it but we are in great positions in all competitions so far and we are only going to get better the strikers can’t miss fire for ever.
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I criticise him for being a passive and reactive manager. Yes the strikers (mostly Martial) deserve critisicm for missing the guilt edged chances at 1-1. Yes Fred deserves huge criticism for reacting to their bait. But by keeping him on, he allowed the PSG team to take advantage of Fred's situation. There's no excuse. We knew what PSG's game was all about before the match. He should have known that they would exaggerate any contact.

At 2-1 down with 11 men, we've still got a chance. 2-1 down with 10 men turned it into an almost impossible task. Mistakes like that simply shouldn't ever be happening at this level.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Whether you think he's good enough or not it makes no sense to sack Ole now
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Would you rather a new manager comes in when we're :

A) Come in summer, out of top 4, no CL, demoralised, less chance to assess the squad, less chance of top players wanting to join?

B) Come in soon whilst everything is still to play for, giving us the best chance of finishing the season strongly, him more time to assess the squad, higher chance to attract top players?
 
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I was Ole out for a few months but I've changed back.

I actually like that we can start to see our weaknesses and players not stepping up when needed (Fred not being a CDM, Pogba cant play as good as Fred & Mctomminay in a double pivot, Martial not being consistent enough as a single starting number 9).

With a general improvement happening in the squad in a term of quality as well, even though Ole's might be doing half of a DOF's job rather than a full managers job - I feel that's important because we dont have that and we have needed that since SAF.

We keep talking about "SAF would have signed this or signed that" - because he himself was a DOF as much as he was a manager for our club. We saw how bad a squad and the type of player identified can quickly go or change under managers like LVG and Jose. We need that DOF doing that consistent work and maybe Ole's the best we can get to put a bit of stability back in to our squad and quality.
 
Anustart89 said:
It obviously does, because it gives the new manager a chance to come in during a season that is very much there for the taking, and it gives the manager a chance to assess the squad for half a season before his first summer transfer window.

When is the right time to change managers in your opinion?
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When we are struggling to or don't achieve the objective (top 4 and progressing into latter stages of CL). Or when there is a world class coach that can almost guarantee you trophies available . Right now I don't see any of these two options yet
 
Majima said:
Would you rather a new manager comes in when we're :

A) Come in summer, out of top 4, no CL, demoralised, less chance to assess the squad, less chance of top players wanting to join?

B) Come in soon whilst everything is still to play for, giving us the best chance of finishing the season strongly, him more time to assess the squad, higher chance to attract top players?
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Option B. But this is already the case with Ole as we still have everything to play for and can finish the season strongly. If we fail to qualify past the group stage in CL and become inconsistent again from now till the end of December he should be sacked
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
Option B. But this is already the case with Ole as we still have everything to play for and can finish the season strongly. If we fail to qualify past the group stage in CL and become inconsistent again from now till the end of December he should be sacked
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That's fair enough. I've already written him off before now but I don't mind your approach too. At least there can be no doubts whatsoever with anyone after December.
 
WR10 said:
Everyone and their dog was shouting for Fred to be subbed off. Ole showed his immaturity and inexperience by allowing his own emotions (annoyance with PSG players behaviour) to cloud his judgement. SAF would have smelled the lack of emotional control from Fred and clipped him quickly.

Long way to go for Ole. Luckily, it was a major lesson in human psychology for him.
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Let's stop sugarcoating it. I remember back when Ole was appointed as our manager a Molde fan was answering questions on reddit. One thing that stood out to me at the time is that he said "One of the things that will drive you insane is Ole's stubburness when it comes to substitutions. He will literally refuse to put players on no matter how bad it gets. It would drive me insane just how inflexible he could be"

And 2 years later nothing has changed. It's not like this is the first game where he gets called out for not using his subs properly.

His stubborness lost us any chance of salvaging the game. It's as clear as that.

Sub Fred for VDB at half time and we would have had a totally different game.
 
Anustart89 said:
It obviously does, because it gives the new manager a chance to come in during a season that is very much there for the taking, and it gives the manager a chance to assess the squad for half a season before his first summer transfer window.

When is the right time to change managers in your opinion?
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You are quite right about timing.
The biggest problem I have with Ole is the lack of clarity of thought and the fact that he is very indecisive.
When we get beaten, I have never really heard him give any clear reason why or what he is going to do. It is the same old - we need to work blah blah blah.

Football is totally a results business. The manager and his staff have to operate in a highly productive and proactive manner.
I am afraid that he is far too slow to react. And so are the United board.
 
laughtersassassin said:
It didn't happen eh?

Funny that. How can people not call out when Ole fecks up. Last night he got so much right but when it came to the big moments he got then completely wrong.


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That can only really be said in hindsight though, and such a narrative ignores the context of the game situation and how it played out. For instance, the game situation would have totally been flipped on its head if we just took one of the chances before the goal, or even if Cavani/AWB were just that split second sharper in pushing up after the initial corner. Would PSG have scored again if we weren't so gung ho in attack after their second? Who created the more clear cut chances up to that point? The answers to those questions are telling, IMO.

Those changes Tuchel made in of themselves didn't really do much to turn the tide - the Marquinhos goal came from a lucky ricochet rather than any concerted pressure. Yes, they had the odd opportunity here and there, but we were still in control and Rashford was still a genuine threat in behind on the right.

Where Ole cocked up was keeping Fred on when the risk was ever-present for the red card. Even so, I don't actually think that red card cost us in our rhythm and territorial dominance after the game. We pushed and pushed for that equaliser and at the time, I did feel one goal was coming for either side, and unfortunately it came at our expense.

Some losses feel like anchors on progression, and others feel more hollow, which I think this one is. In terms of the performance itself I think we can take some confidence from it for the rest of the season, and I am expecting a big reaction against West Ham.
 
Buster15 said:
And keeping with a manager who is not making any real progress also isn't working.
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This is just nonsense. We were languishin in bottom half when Jose got sacked. Ole nearly rescued top 4 from miles behind. Second season he came 3rd. That's massive progress. This season we're only 9 games in and we are 5pts off top spot with a game in hand.

Please stop pedalling this nonsense about no progress. The stats simply don't back it up.
 
Buster15 said:
And keeping with a manager who is not making any real progress also isn't working.
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No real progress? We went from 6th to 3rd in his first full season. We are now 5 points off the top with a game in hand in the league and we're topping a group of death in the CL after 5 games, when many on this board thought we'd be cut adrift by the 3rd or 4th game.

If that isn't progress, I don't know what is.
 
rotherham_red said:
That can only really be said in hindsight though, and such a narrative ignores the context of the game situation and how it played out. For instance, the game situation would have totally been flipped on its head if we just took one of the chances before the goal, or even if Cavani/AWB were just that split second sharper in pushing up after the initial corner. Would PSG have scored again if we weren't so gung ho in attack after their second? Who created the more clear cut chances up to that point? The answers to those questions are telling, IMO.

Those changes Tuchel made in of themselves didn't really do much to turn the tide - the Marquinhos goal came from a lucky ricochet rather than any concerted pressure. Yes, they had the odd opportunity here and there, but we were still in control and Rashford was still a genuine threat in behind on the right.

Where Ole cocked up was keeping Fred on when the risk was ever-present for the red card. Even so, I don't actually think that red card cost us in our rhythm and territorial dominance after the game. We pushed and pushed for that equaliser and at the time, I did feel one goal was coming for either side, and unfortunately it came at our expense.

Some losses feel like anchors on progression, and others feel more hollow, which I think this one is. In terms of the performance itself I think we can take some confidence from it for the rest of the season, and I am expecting a big reaction against West Ham.
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I agree with all of this. Some of this retrospective analysis is bullshit. It's easy to assign huge meaning to moments or decisions after the fact when you know how everything panned out. We're all agreed that Fred coming out for the second half was a big error but we were playing well, creating good chances and controlling the game against last years CL runners up for a good 40 or 50 minutes until the, lets face it, scrappy second from PSG and the red changed everything. I came away frustrated but certainly not despairing of the performance, as has sometimes been the case this year. This one still goes down in the upward trend column for me.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
If we replace Ole it should be a manager that you think can deliver major trophies.
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Just like Ole was apparently thought of as the guy who could do that, there will always be options for who to go for next. Whether they work out is another matter. Ole himself was a highly risky and not at all prove choice too.
 
Still ill said:
I agree with all of this. Some of this retrospective analysis is bullshit. It's easy to assign huge meaning to moments or decisions after the fact when you know how everything panned out. We're all agreed that Fred coming out for the second half was a big error but we were playing well, creating good chances and controlling the game against last years CL runners up for a good 40 or 50 minutes until the, lets face it, scrappy second from PSG and the red changed everything. I came away frustrated but certainly not despairing of the performance, as has sometimes been the case this year. This one still goes down in the upward trend column for me.
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It's mind boggling how simplistic some people are when it comes to it, mate.

Also, it's not like we haven't seen a player on a lucky yellow stay on the pitch for the full 90 in the past either - we've done it ourselves many a time. It was a calculated risk and gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. In this instance, it didn't but the card itself and the changes we made in reaction to it did not impede our rhythm. We were still playing well and pushing for that second goal.

We learnt a harsh lesson on Wednesday, but it's a lesson that we needed to learn. I'm hoping we get some confidence in the league and then proceed to Leipzig and get the result we need.
 
Buster15 said:
Football is totally a results business.
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Totally agreed.

Tbh I have no idea why those Ole in/out can argue so much like that. They don't understand that their whole discussion is simply pointless. Ole won't be sacked unless top 4 is mathematically impossible. Or we stay in the relegation zone for while. Or Ole felt out with Ed, the Glazers and publicly attack them.

Ed and the Glazers will never sack Ole because they, or the fan, or whoever it is 'think' or 'feel' Ole would not win a title with United. All they need is top 4, sacking actually cost money and they are definitely neither Abramovich nor those oil owners.
 
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rotherham_red said:
That can only really be said in hindsight though, and such a narrative ignores the context of the game situation and how it played out. For instance, the game situation would have totally been flipped on its head if we just took one of the chances before the goal, or even if Cavani/AWB were just that split second sharper in pushing up after the initial corner. Would PSG have scored again if we weren't so gung ho in attack after their second? Who created the more clear cut chances up to that point? The answers to those questions are telling, IMO.

Those changes Tuchel made in of themselves didn't really do much to turn the tide - the Marquinhos goal came from a lucky ricochet rather than any concerted pressure. Yes, they had the odd opportunity here and there, but we were still in control and Rashford was still a genuine threat in behind on the right.

Where Ole cocked up was keeping Fred on when the risk was ever-present for the red card. Even so, I don't actually think that red card cost us in our rhythm and territorial dominance after the game. We pushed and pushed for that equaliser and at the time, I did feel one goal was coming for either side, and unfortunately it came at our expense.

Some losses feel like anchors on progression, and others feel more hollow, which I think this one is. In terms of the performance itself I think we can take some confidence from it for the rest of the season, and I am expecting a big reaction against West Ham.
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How can it only be said in hindsight when people where calling it out on the night before PSG scored?
 
laughtersassassin said:
How can it only be said in hindsight when people where calling it out on the night before PSG scored?
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And how can it be said that it cost us when we were still creating chances and dominating the territory after PSG scored? The only difference being that we were more open to the counter which only came from us being a goal down and where
Fred's presence might have helped, and even that assumption is neither here nor there, as we've conceded similar goals with 11 men on the pitch before.

Like I said, Ole definitely made a mistake not subbing off Fred, but I don't think his overall tactics and gameplan were inhibited by Tuchel's changes. We still created chances after those subs were made and even when we were that man down. At least one of them should have been taken, but it's all ifs buts and maybes. We didn't deserve to win because we didn't take those chances.

Tactics and management take us to those situations where we can score. The actual act of scoring is on the players. It's a very simple thought process which unfortunately a lot of people on this thread don't seem to be taking on board.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Just like Ole was apparently thought of as the guy who could do that, there will always be options for who to go for next. Whether they work out is another matter. Ole himself was a highly risky and not at all prove choice too.
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I highly doubt the board was interested in bringing Ole in because he was the guy that could win trophies. They probably weren't thinking when they appointed him given that euphoric night in Paris. But if they were I'd say they gave up on instant success and saw that the club was in need of a rebuild that wasn't going to be done quickly and they saw Ole more as the man that knows what United is about and can help with the cultural reset (or whatever Ed wants to call it) rather the man that can deliver major trophies. A rebuild at that time was more of a priority than winning trophies

The problem now is that the rebuild is almost over. And trophies is now becoming the priority. So at this point we have to start asking if Ole is good enough to win major trophies for us and if he isn't which coach available can?
 
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