Ole: “maybe something has to give”

Sandikan said:
I'm getting a little alarmed at how some people seem to be putting a lot of this blame on Ronaldo!
People seem to have gone from underrating Cavani, to massively overrating him.
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The delusion is getting surreal now that's for sure.

I'm not saying Ronaldo doesn't bring some problems with him but feck me he is hardly the biggest one. We've assembled one of the most expensive squads in the world and struggled in almost each and every one of our games this season. Piss easy games on paper too. There is no way anyone with half a brain can look past the manager now.

And it's not like this hasn't been coming. Our football last season was pretty wank too but we somehow managed to scrape through a lot of our games. But the amount of comebacks we had last year without actually playing well were never sustainable. I actually think our results now finally mirror the quality of football we've seen from Ole since he became our permanent manager.
 
Godfather said:
The delusion is getting surreal now that's for sure.

I'm not saying Ronaldo doesn't bring some problems with him but feck me he is hardly the biggest one. We've assembled one of the most expensive squads in the world and struggled in almost each and every one of our games this season. Piss easy games on paper too. There is no way anyone with half a brain can look past the manager now.

And it's not like this hasn't been coming. Our football last season was pretty wank too but we somehow managed to scrape through a lot of our games. But the amount of comebacks we had last year without actually playing well were never sustainable. I actually think our results now finally mirror the quality of football we've seen from Ole since he became our permanent manager.
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Exactly.
When almost every player is underperforming, you can make an array of excuses, blame which ever player you don't particularly like, or the most expensive/highest paid etc,
OR
you can think, hang on, maybe the manager isn't right here.

And that's why manager is always the most important appointment, and why managers of the top clubs are usually highly experienced in success elsewhere first.
Not dropped in as a temporary morale boost, and then stay on!
 
DomesticTadpole said:
When he took the job he kept going on about stamina and energy, where is it then, why are other teams outrunning us? That the players were not fit enough, why do they still look unfit? There is something seriously wrong with the whole of the training regime.
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Gone out the window it seems.

Under each manager post Fergie we've had stories of players reacting badly to working hard in training and wanting it easier. The nature of the club it doesn't seem possible anymore.

The likes of Klopp and Pep are incredibly hard taskmasters, harder than LVG or Jose. You want to see a team working hard you watch the mad pressing of the old Barcelona.
 
redshaw said:
Gone out the window it seems.

Under each manager post Fergie we've had stories of players reacting badly to working hard in training and wanting it easier. The nature of the club it doesn't seem possible anymore.

The likes of Klopp and Pep are incredibly hard taskmasters, harder than LVG or Jose. You want to see a team working hard you watch the mad pressing of the old Barcelona.
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Yeah. I don't think the training is intense enough. Don't think the drills, if we have them for attack and defence are intense enough.
 
Wouldn’t mind seeing all the coaching staff cleared out and replaced. It’s clear that most of them aren’t equipped to deal with coaching at this level.
 
TwoSheds said:
It's irrelevant, we held onto Moyes far, far too long. Van Gaal we were cruel but honestly probably still too long, Mourinho had to go full sabotage mode to get sacked. It's not because he's lovely Ole, it's because the board are bad at choosing coaches, it's undeniable. So thanks for the patrony but please feel free to swivel.
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it’s not irrelevant. read this forum and see how many are attached to him. I mentioned fan loyalties for a reason, as well as pundits. Pressure on him should be much bigger.

I don’t even know what or why you’re replying to me. Me not wanting another ex player as a manager is not up for debate.
 
crossy1686 said:
Wouldn’t mind seeing all the coaching staff cleared out and replaced. It’s clear that most of them aren’t equipped to deal with coaching at this level.
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I mean, you can bring in Conte and the first thing he'd do to solve the tactical conundrum is staple Bruno and/or Ronaldo to the bench and he won't do it quietly either. He might beat some discipline into Pogba though, as he's be an entirely different animal to Solskjær or Deschamps.

This performance again goes to show why Ole has been sticking to two defensive oriented players in midfield.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
I mean, you can bring in Conte and the first thing he'd do to solve the tactical conundrum is staple Bruno and/or Ronaldo to the bench and he won't do it quietly either. He might beat some discipline into Pogba though, as he's be an entirely different animal to Solskjær or Deschamps.

This performance again goes to show why Ole has been sticking to two defensive oriented players in midfield.
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Didn’t Pogba play under Conte at Juventus?
 
crossy1686 said:
Wouldn’t mind seeing all the coaching staff cleared out and replaced. It’s clear that most of them aren’t equipped to deal with coaching at this level.
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All young inexperienced coaches who will have great careers but they should be learning elsewhere not on the job at United. Phelan has no excuses though
 
Can't fit Ronaldo, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, and Pogba in the same starting XI. Something there has to give to try and sure up the midfield a little.
 
FerociousCorgis said:
Jesus christ what is with people having a hard on with a striker pressuring? How about we set up properly to take advantage of his strengths and actually play as a team. Swear people think if we just have everyone running around full speed we will magically be the best team ever created
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Exactly. Why are people acting like we were some pressing phenomenon and Ronaldo has come in and ruined it. We’re exactly the same as we always were he’s just even more immobile. Play to his strengths he’s great, play our style and he’ll just be a flat track bully.
 
Beachryan said:
Can't play Ronaldo, Pogba and Fernandes. There is no system that can accomodate all 3, regardless of manager. I would imagine that's what he's referring to.
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I know which one I'd drop and it's not the one who has shown more attitude, work rate, and desire since signing, nor his compatriot.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
I mean, you can bring in Conte and the first thing he'd do to solve the tactical conundrum is staple Bruno and/or Ronaldo to the bench and he won't do it quietly either. He might beat some discipline into Pogba though, as he's be an entirely different animal to Solskjær or Deschamps.

This performance again goes to show why Ole has been sticking to two defensive oriented players in midfield.
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Ole’s going to start benching players himself pretty soon I’d imagine and even with Mcfred out midfield has been wide
open, Ole is presiding over a shambles.

People keep blaming the coaches or trying to make excuses for Ole but the easiest and most obvious solution is get rid of the manager. It’s just a question of when that happens now.
 
Jeppers7 said:
Without them we don’t press as a team…are you blind?
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Our press is to generally try to get the oppo to pass into midifled, where our double pivot and full backs and occansionaly are cbs go in to win the ball.

With Fred and mctom in the pivot this system actually works reasonably well because Fred and mctom have the desire and intensity in there game to go and win the ball back.

Pogba doesn't he either gets bypassed because he cant be arsed to do work that he obviously sees as under him or gives away soft fouls. And then the whole system falls apart and we get overun in midfield time and time again our line naturally drops back because we can't keep a high line if our midfield is getting overun and then our defence comes under pressure the opposition pushes high and suddenly its us getting pressed, but that's ok because pogba is well known to be amazing at dealing with pressure infront of his own box and is also well known to roll up his sleeves to wrestle back control....

I belive our problems start and end with midfield balance and pogba is the massive weight causing the imbalance.
 
Ixion said:
Can't fit Ronaldo, Bruno, Greenwood, Sancho, and Pogba in the same starting XI. Something there has to give to try and sure up the midfield a little.
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@FootyGirl88 has just post a video of Gary Neville saying the same thing in the Ole thread. That they are not going to press and do not have the work ethic that a Bernardo Silva or Mane have. However Ole picked them, so he must have known we could get overrun.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
@FootyGirl88 has just post a video of Gary Neville saying the same thing in the Ole thread. That they are not going to press and do not have the work ethic that a Bernardo Silva or Mane have. However Ole picked them, so he must have known we could get overrun.
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Or a Dan James. He wasn’t great, but he’d work his arse off and never thought tracking back was beneath him.
 
jamesjimmybyrondean said:
He literally didn't change anything so I have no idea what they looked at during the international break
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Your not wrong. I don’t know what changed. The only thing I could see is that he chose Pogba/Matic combo instead of Fred/McT. Hardly a revelation.
Rest of the formation and people really weren’t surprising given what was available.
 
SER19 said:
I was being sarcastic.
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Well yes, but we did manage plenty of decent attacking performances last season, despite spells of bad form from key players (Martial, Rashford, Bruno towards the end). Giving away idiotic goals was a much bigger issue. Which we are still doing.

There was a definite drop off in our attacking play after the rout of Roma though. I thought the Leeds game made it look like we’d got it sorted. Obviously not…
 
Walters_19_MuFc said:
This is what I want to hear. Yes, people will want him to resign, which is understandable. Its a results business and Ole is currently underachieving. However, if he can identify what needs to be changed and we have success from it, then I'm all for it.

Yes, people will argue that it shouldn't have taken this long but he was obviously hoping everything would just click into place. This is a system that, all in all, did pretty well last season, and as a manager, you tend to stick to your tried and trusted. However, for whatever reason, it seems to have gone quite stale, and where we looked pretty dangerous going forward last season, we hardly look like we're going to score this season.

Going forward, I'd want us to try either a 433, 352 or 343 - just something different. If he does that and it doesn't work, then I guess that's when we'd have to start looking for replacements.
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Agree to this to say the least. Whilst i don’t think we were hugely better last year, I certainly get your point now.
I watched the first half of Liverpool v Watford before falling asleep, but it pains me to say it- their passing and movement just looked so much better and had so much intent.
You take formations, players etc out of it, and I still think it’s true- like even the way TAA, Henderson and Milner look ‘sharp’ I’m not even referring to Mane, Salah, firmino.
So I’m in favour of a formation change too - 433 would be my guess - but even then the thing I want to see most is that we actually develop a style of play, intensity, sharp and purposeful passing, and some idea of what the passes/movement before a goal might look like.
 
Zoo said:
I’d be happy to see Lingard right now. Energy, movement and quality.
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Revaulx said:
Lingard should be starting. His work rate, particularly off the ball, is desperately needed.
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While both of you certainly have a point, resorting to players of his quality is not what we need to be challenging for league titles. We would sacrifice big names of high quality, in favour of players with lesser quality to probably end up finishing in the same position in the table (not title winners regardless)

At this rate it’s becoming cyclical, which comes down to our inability to structure a team and move forward as a club, from the board down to the manager.
 
GMoore23 said:
He scored a hat trick against Luxembourg. In club terms that's like a Hat trick against Shrewsbury.
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Sure but everything I’ve seen he’s absolutely quality still. He’s still got plenty of pace and his movement and finishing is still brilliant. He’s just as mobile as Lewandowski or Kane.

Ronaldo isn’t the problem.
 
It’s time travel. This is the era of oil money, TV rights, super League. It’s the post cruyff, great surfaces, lie down and cry, heavy metal football, possession based, back to the sweeper goalkeeper, la la la… now, gather round children while I conjure up the tale of how the class of 93 and Fergieball, United DNA, etc, fared in 2022…. What?
 
Can he not just be humble and accept that him and his coaching team are not good enough and need a lot of help?

Can we not get Rene back? Or even Quieroz? Steve McClaren? Or I dunno, steal a Atletico or Bayern first team coach or something? Someone with some winning pedigree in the top leagues in Europe.

Something HAS to change indeed.
 
Get In Scholesy said:
While both of you certainly have a point, resorting to players of his quality is not what we need to be challenging for league titles. We would sacrifice big names of high quality, in favour of players with lesser quality to probably end up finishing in the same position in the table (not title winners regardless)

At this rate it’s becoming cyclical, which comes down to our inability to structure a team and move forward as a club, from the board down to the manager.
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Oh absolutely. But however structured we get, we still need at least some attackers that will work hard and track back. Just playing a load of luxury players, however talented, is never going to win us anything.
 
peridigm said:
I know which one I'd drop and it's not the one who has shown more attitude, work rate, and desire since signing, nor his compatriot.
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In Ole's 4-2-3-1, both Pogba and Ronaldo actually should be dropped to the bench. Pogba can't play in double pivot and Ronaldo can't play as a lone striker. Playing with both in such position is like playing with 9 minutes.

Best 4-2-3-1 will be with something like Scott - VDB - Bruno - Sancho - Greenwood - Cavani.
 
Sandikan said:
I'm getting a little alarmed at how some people seem to be putting a lot of this blame on Ronaldo!
People seem to have gone from underrating Cavani, to massively overrating him.
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Yeah, it's like people forget we got played off the park against Wolves before Ronaldo joined (but fluked a win). This has been an ongoing issue. For 3 years.
 
He's clearly talking about playing more defensively. Most likely Pogba and Bruno and Ronaldo and Greenwood not all playing together.

That or finally trusting his instincts and building the team around Donny.
 
crossy1686 said:
Wouldn’t mind seeing all the coaching staff cleared out and replaced. It’s clear that most of them aren’t equipped to deal with coaching at this level.
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It's what should happen ASAP.

Phelan never should have been brought back.
 
Ronaldo will always be an easy scape-goat given how his game has evolved. Arguments surrounding his lack of work-rate were emerging at Madrid 5 years ago, never mind now. His game involvement is going to be minimal, you have to feed him enough chances throughout the game, and that is where he will thrive. Otherwise, he'll be a ghost.

Pinning our pressing issues solely on a striker not pressing from the front (not a co-incidence so many are suddenly parroting it, since Neville scapegoated Ronaldo for it on Overlap debate a day or two ago) is such a cop-out. We have been dog-shit at pressing/containing under Ole. It's just players randomly pressing by themselves, Bruno is a classic example of this. You could put 3 workhorses in Lingard, McTominay and Fred, we'd still be shit at pressing. Why? Because, it's an incredibly hard thing to coach in your players, and requires a lot of time on the training pitch.

Folks are pining for McFred again in midfield for Liverpool/City game, after slagging the duo for months. I really wonder what goes inside the head of these people. It's like slapping shit onto a wall and see if it something sticks. Going by Ole's post-match comments, that's what he is going for. I wonder how Ronaldo/Pogba would react to their benching for Cavani and Lingard as "we need more legs in the team". Let's see.
 
4-2-3-1 isn’t unworkable. Bayern play that way (not sure about this season but previously) and they’ve had lots of success both domestically and in Europe.

I do wonder what if playing inverted forwards in Greenwood and Rashford/Sancho along with an attacking midfielder in Bruno is more of the problem. If you look at teams with inverted forwards like Pep’s Barca team or PSG or City they tend to play a 3-man midfield. This allows space for the forwards to come inside to the attacking midfield position and leaves room for overlapping full backs while having the 3-man midfield to cover for the attacking full backs.

If you look at Bayern playing 4-2-3-1 they play Muller similarly to Bruno’s role with us. However they have typically played Sane and Gnabry on their strong side stretching play.

We seem to be squeezing too many attacking players into central areas which makes it easy to defend by setting up narrowly. This forces us to push the full backs forward (who lack quality delivery) and then when our attacks break down we can be counter attacked down the flanks. This is compounded by playing only a 2-man midfield.

Considering the weakness in AWB and Shaw in terms of delivery we shouldn’t want them crossing too often. Instead tell them to sit back and play cautiously supporting the 2-man midfield. Then swap Greenwood and Sancho. Get them playing high and wide stretching play. This will create room for Bruno in the no10 position and also get Sancho and Greenwood to the byline to square the ball for Ronaldo in the box.

Alternatively, if we are going to rotate then play 3-man midfield then the attacking players in there need to cover for the attacking full backs. We should also then play Telles and Dalot because of their superior attacking abilities. Fred and McTominay aren’t horribly suited to play a box to box role alongside a proper defensive midfielder in the Henderson/Wijnaldum mould but we don’t really have the Fabinho/Fernandinho type to sit.
 
Revaulx said:
Oh absolutely. But however structured we get, we still need at least some attackers that will work hard and track back. Just playing a load of luxury players, however talented, is never going to win us anything.
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Definitely, I agree with you. There has to be a balance of both and given the last 8 years, we have found that very difficult to come by.
 
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