Old Trafford revamp/could be torn down and rebuilt according to Glazer plans

What’s your preference for Old Trafford?

  • Rebuild

    Votes: 714 48.4%

  • Renovate

    Votes: 736 49.9%

  • Leave it as is

    Votes: 26 1.8%
  • Total voters
    1,476
As daft as this will sound is a location change during construction possible?

Wembley perhaps (it made perfect sense for spurs being a few miles away)

Positives: were probably the only club that has enough support to fill the damn thing in another city

Players won't be bothered i guess they'll just rent a home or a hotel for the duration of it

There's enough training facilities and travel times are low

Negatives: home supported and season ticket holder will be shafted hard

Overall its pretty dumb but we've done dumber things
 
Wixqaz said:
There's different levels to whats needed right?

1 There can't be any actual structural issues because they'd be sued massively by the council etc. So the rust etc will be cosmetic. There's problems with the roof I've seen mentioned before. Escalators and lifts maybe needed. All of that stuff is easier to solve. The biggest issue being the roof.

2 Expanding the ground over the railway, they have the land already but it's expensive to do. Less now than in previous decades but still. Would that cost the same as a whole new stadium? Not these days, Spurs' cost 1billion and its not as big as the current one.

3 A new ground. Even with WHL they had to play away for a year? Are you going to play at City for a year?

To me the fact they own the grounds around the stadium, but didn't look at the plans for Hotel Football and think "Ah thats a great idea, lets build our own hotel here". Shows they're shortsighted in the match day side. Commercially they've been good, but why not build hotels and other amenities around the ground, it's simple and would earn them money. They're missing opertunities.

Build a mini stadium, of like 15K. Use it for concerts, the youth and women. Keep Carrington for the senior players. You can sell the naming rights to the Mini Trafford!
Click to expand...
New Trafford
 
New stadium ASAP.

Everyones got one, its time we get one too. Its time to go into the modern world and upgrade.
 
Modern stadiums are impressive but they're so architecturally cookie cutter it's unreal. Those classic stadiums have unique architectural points about them that you won't find on other stadiums, but it seems now that if you've seen one bowl stadium you've seen them all, regardless of how impressive they are from an overall function and hospitality perspective.

If we built a new stadium could we at least try to retain some of the aesthetic characteristics of Ole Trafford?
 
Red the Bear said:
As daft as this will sound is a location change during construction possible?

Wembley perhaps (it made perfect sense for spurs being a few miles away)

Positives: were probably the only club that has enough support to fill the damn thing in another city

Players won't be bothered i guess they'll just rent a home or a hotel for the duration of it

There's enough training facilities and travel times are low

Negatives: home supported and season ticket holder will be shafted hard

Overall its pretty dumb but we've done dumber things
Click to expand...

No chance whatsoever.

No chance of playing elsewhere in the local area either. We'd never play at City (the 40's were a different time) now and we wouldn't fit anywhere else.

Only thing I'd reckon that would fit the bill would be to create a temp stadium using the usual scaffolding type stands for 60k plus somewhere around Manchester whilst we rebuilt OT. Teams in America have done it (albeit I don't think to such a high capacity) so it wouldn't be out of the question for American owners to think about at least.

I still think knocking the ticket office down and building in that space + W1 and W2 car parks would be plenty of space and could feasibly done whilst OT was still in use. Only thing would maybe build a tunnel over the canal and make the most of the space in N2 on the other side of that too?
 
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Literally read the two dumbest posts.
1) Play games in Wembley wtf
2) New stadium because “everyone has one” as already mentioned “Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, Aston Vila, Newcastle, Leeds… not to forget Real Madrid, Barca, AC/Inter, Dortmund: basically most of the biggest clubs in the premier league and Europe don’t have new stadiums.
 
matherto said:
No chance whatsoever.

No chance of playing elsewhere in the local area either. We'd never play at City (the 40's were a different time) now and we wouldn't fit anywhere else.

Only thing I'd reckon that would fit the bill would be to create a temp stadium using the usual scaffolding type stands for 60k plus somewhere around Manchester whilst we rebuilt OT.

I still think knocking the ticket office down and building in that space + W1 and W2 car parks would be plenty of space and could feasibly done whilst OT was still in use. Only thing would maybe build a tunnel over the canal and make the most of the space in N2 on the other side of that too?
Click to expand...
The brief for the redevelopment is that work be done so games can still be played at OT. It’s regularly happened before where the stadium has been expanded but games are still played at OT. 3-4 occasions from 1990s to 2000s.

Remember OT is now 75000, in the early 90s it was 45000 and went up to 55000 then 65000, then 75000, all without United having to move
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
2) New stadium because “everyone has one” as already mentioned “Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, Aston Vila, Newcastle, Leeds… not to forget Real Madrid, Barca, AC/Inter, Dortmund: basically most of the biggest clubs in the premier league and Europe don’t have new stadiums.
Click to expand...

Liverpool have built one new stand and are currently extending another, won't be long before they re-do the Kop too you'd assume because it'll look tiny in comparison to the rest there.

Everton are building a new one right now.

Chelsea presented plans for a redevloped Stamford Bridge a few years back.

Villa also presented plans as part of the WC bid and there have been constant rumours of Villa Park having the corners filled.

Newcastle will either expand the Gallowgate end or build a new stadium when the new owners get going.

Leeds have been out of the Prem for years but also presented plans for the WC bid IIRC.

Real are currently massively renovating the Bernabeu.

Barca have plans to massively renovate the Nou Camp.

AC/Inter have just presented plans for a new stadium on the site of the San Siro.

Dortmund had theirs redeveloped in 2006 for the WC there. Interesting you mention them because everywhere else in the Bundesliga is a redevloped or new stadium.

OT is based on foundations built in 1910, the basic low tier is from the 60's with the bowl completed in the early 90's. With the distance between seats being a major issue and the ability to redevelop it to anything remotely compared to the current high-tech new stadiums extremely limited, there'd be little point in renovating OT.

Either you leave it as it is and say 'sod it' to any futureproofing or you do a massive job rebuilding it in which case we might as well rebuild it away from the train lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love OT for what it is, but it's massively outdated now. Any concessions to modern standards would reduce capacity massively to improve leg room and that would cost a bomb, plus redeveloping the South Stand would be a huge amount too. It needs a new roof entirely which may not be possible given the design as well.

Biggest/traditionally biggest teams and rivals in Europe right now.

City - modern stadium (2003 - redeveloped in 2015)
Arsenal - modern stadium (2006)
Spurs - modern stadium (2019)
Liverpool - redevloping
PSG - plans for redevlopment
Bayern - modern stadium (2006)
Dortmund - similar to OT but better suited
Leipzig - modern stadium with redevelopment plans
Real -redeveloping
Atletico - modern stadium (2017)
Barca - plans for redevelopment
Juve - modern stadium (2011)
Inter - plans for new stadium
Milan - plans for new stadium
 
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Red the Bear said:
As daft as this will sound is a location change during construction possible?

Wembley perhaps (it made perfect sense for spurs being a few miles away)

Positives: were probably the only club that has enough support to fill the damn thing in another city

Players won't be bothered i guess they'll just rent a home or a hotel for the duration of it

There's enough training facilities and travel times are low

Negatives: home supported and season ticket holder will be shafted hard

Overall its pretty dumb but we've done dumber things
Click to expand...
:lol:
 
matherto said:
Liverpool have built one new stand and are currently extending another, won't be long before they re-do the Kop too you'd assume because it'll look tiny in comparison to the rest there.

Everton are building a new one right now.

Chelsea presented plans for a redevloped Stamford Bridge a few years back.

Villa also presented plans as part of the WC bid and there have been constant rumours of Villa Park having the corners filled.

Newcastle will either expand the Gallowgate end or build a new stadium when the new owners get going.

Leeds have been out of the Prem for years but also presented plans for the WC bid IIRC.

Real are currently massively renovating the Bernabeu.

Barca have plans to massively renovate the Nou Camp.

AC/Inter have just presented plans for a new stadium on the site of the San Siro.

Dortmund had theirs redeveloped in 2006 for the WC there. Interesting you mention them because everywhere else in the Bundesliga is a redevloped or new stadium.

OT is based on foundations built in 1910, the basic low tier is from the 60's with the bowl completed in the early 90's. With the distance between seats being a major issue and the ability to redevelop it to anything remotely compared to the current high-tech new stadiums extremely limited, there'd be little point in renovating OT.

Either you leave it as it is and say 'sod it' to any futureproofing or you do a massive job rebuilding it in which case we might as well rebuild it away from the train lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love OT for what it is, but it's massively outdated now. Any concessions to modern standards would reduce capacity massively to improve leg room and that would cost a bomb, plus redeveloping the South Stand would be a huge amount too. It needs a new roof entirely which may not be possible given the design as well.

Biggest/traditionally biggest teams and rivals in Europe right now.

City - modern stadium (2003 - redeveloped in 2015)
Arsenal - modern stadium (2006)
Spurs - modern stadium (2019)
Liverpool - redevloping
PSG - plans for redevlopment
Bayern - modern stadium (2006)
Dortmund - similar to OT but better suited
Leipzig - modern stadium with redevelopment plans
Real -redeveloping
Atletico - modern stadium (2017)
Barca - plans for redevelopment
Juve - modern stadium (2011)
Inter - plans for new stadium
Milan - plans for new stadium
Click to expand...
Great post.
 
I can't believe some people really want a soulless new stadium here and just want to erase all the charm that defines Old Trafford and this club too. I love to modernize, but not a new stadium, please.

My club in Germany built a new one a long time ago and so much has just been lost
 
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matherto said:
Liverpool have built one new stand and are currently extending another, won't be long before they re-do the Kop too you'd assume because it'll look tiny in comparison to the rest there.

Everton are building a new one right now.

Chelsea presented plans for a redevloped Stamford Bridge a few years back.

Villa also presented plans as part of the WC bid and there have been constant rumours of Villa Park having the corners filled.

Newcastle will either expand the Gallowgate end or build a new stadium when the new owners get going.

Leeds have been out of the Prem for years but also presented plans for the WC bid IIRC.

Real are currently massively renovating the Bernabeu.

Barca have plans to massively renovate the Nou Camp.

AC/Inter have just presented plans for a new stadium on the site of the San Siro.

Dortmund had theirs redeveloped in 2006 for the WC there. Interesting you mention them because everywhere else in the Bundesliga is a redevloped or new stadium.

OT is based on foundations built in 1910, the basic low tier is from the 60's with the bowl completed in the early 90's. With the distance between seats being a major issue and the ability to redevelop it to anything remotely compared to the current high-tech new stadiums extremely limited, there'd be little point in renovating OT.

Either you leave it as it is and say 'sod it' to any futureproofing or you do a massive job rebuilding it in which case we might as well rebuild it away from the train lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love OT for what it is, but it's massively outdated now. Any concessions to modern standards would reduce capacity massively to improve leg room and that would cost a bomb, plus redeveloping the South Stand would be a huge amount too. It needs a new roof entirely which may not be possible given the design as well.

Biggest/traditionally biggest teams and rivals in Europe right now.

City - modern stadium (2003 - redeveloped in 2015)
Arsenal - modern stadium (2006)
Spurs - modern stadium (2019)
Liverpool - redevloping
PSG - plans for redevlopment
Bayern - modern stadium (2006)
Dortmund - similar to OT but better suited
Leipzig - modern stadium with redevelopment plans
Real -redeveloping
Atletico - modern stadium (2017)
Barca - plans for redevelopment
Juve - modern stadium (2011)
Inter - plans for new stadium
Milan - plans for new stadium
Click to expand...

So almost everybody does like United and redevelop, but you want to scrap the whole stadium?

The Germans bombed Old Trafford, and that didn’t matter, but we should bin it because someone wants more leg space?

Old Trafford is football’s answer to La Sagrada Familia or Notre Dame.
 
Moving to a new stadium would be a massive mistake. The club's that have done, the likes of Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, have done so for economic reasons. They literally didn't have the space to expand so had to move. We already have the biggest stadium in the country, which will increase further to over 80,000. Old Trafford currently provides us with one of the highest match-day incomes in world football, so economically, it provides us with everything we need.

Agree, it needs modernising. The SBC stand needs knocking down and rebuilding. The facade needs a lot of money spending on it, to make it look uniform and modern. Concourses and toilet blocks throughout the stadium need to be made bigger. All this can be done, without having to move.
 
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Zero interest in a new stadium and yet to see a compelling argument to do so. Redevelop the historic ground we have, feck a shiny soulless new build.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
Modern stadiums are impressive but they're so architecturally cookie cutter it's unreal. Those classic stadiums have unique architectural points about them that you won't find on other stadiums, but it seems now that if you've seen one bowl stadium you've seen them all, regardless of how impressive they are from an overall function and hospitality perspective.

If we built a new stadium could we at least try to retain some of the aesthetic characteristics of Ole Trafford?
Click to expand...

Leaky Roof?
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
Literally read the two dumbest posts.
1) Play games in Wembley wtf
2) New stadium because “everyone has one” as already mentioned “Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, Aston Vila, Newcastle, Leeds… not to forget Real Madrid, Barca, AC/Inter, Dortmund: basically most of the biggest clubs in the premier league and Europe don’t have new stadiums.
Click to expand...

AC and Inter are literally building a new stadium as we speak :lol:
 
Old Trafford was a 'soulless' state of the art bowl when it was built a century ago. I'd knock it down to the bottom tier and build up. We could build a temp stadium adjacent to the ground. It'd cost almost billion, so....a lick of paint it is.
 
They ain't going to be building a new stadium when the current one holds 75k fans. Let's be frank, that is pie in the sky, it's simply not going to happen. It doesn't matter what other clubs are doing, to think we are going to build an 80k+ capacity stadium from scratch is ridiculous.

The best bet is to work with what we have. Tidy the place up. Look into the extension. Of course there are concessions to be made within the current design and no it's not going to be the perfect, sanitised experience you get in the modern bowl but that's how it is. That isn't the brief. The brief is to make the place better than it currently is for a reasonable cost.
 
Shame they can't build downwards and increase capacity that way and also fix the south stand.
 
For those that go to games the new stadiums - spurs, West Ham, Wembley, arsenal - are all horrible in terms of atmosphere, and it’s not as if the matchday facilities ie a bar and a toilet need to be up to a great deal. Would prefer to stick with what we have and spend a bit of money where it’s required.
 
I'm a bit surprised so many people are talking about a new stadium really, we'll sort out OT, I'd say the chances of us moving are tiny.
 
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Abraxas said:
They ain't going to be building a new stadium when the current one holds 75k fans. Let's be frank, that is pie in the sky, it's simply not going to happen. It doesn't matter what other clubs are doing, to think we are going to build an 80k+ capacity stadium from scratch is ridiculous.

The best bet is to work with what we have. Tidy the place up. Look into the extension. Of course there are concessions to be made within the current design and no it's not going to be the perfect, sanitised experience you get in the modern bowl but that's how it is. That isn't the brief. The brief is to make the place better than it currently is for a reasonable cost.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. The capacity is huge already so why not just develop and extend it.
 
matherto said:
Think we'd be better off doing what Spurs, Bilbao and Benfica did.

Build a new stadium on the grounds in the car park further away from the railway tracks and only knock down OT when three quarters of it is built.

That was we stay basically where we are with the same/similar postcode and we get a brand new state of the art stadium.

1488963484_spurs3.jpg

bilbao220613c.jpg

EUyV68eWkAEDNiu.jpg

OT is just too old and outdated to be feasibly made back into a world beating venue I think, much as I love it for how uniquely tight it is. Not sure how they could redo the roof cause it's pretty integral to the whole structure being cantilevered but it needs a St. James' style one that shows off the size of the stands and doesn't hinder the view from the upper tiers.
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Wouldn't the canal be in the way of this?
 
matherto said:
Liverpool have built one new stand and are currently extending another, won't be long before they re-do the Kop too you'd assume because it'll look tiny in comparison to the rest there.

Everton are building a new one right now.

Chelsea presented plans for a redevloped Stamford Bridge a few years back.

Villa also presented plans as part of the WC bid and there have been constant rumours of Villa Park having the corners filled.

Newcastle will either expand the Gallowgate end or build a new stadium when the new owners get going.

Leeds have been out of the Prem for years but also presented plans for the WC bid IIRC.

Real are currently massively renovating the Bernabeu.

Barca have plans to massively renovate the Nou Camp.

AC/Inter have just presented plans for a new stadium on the site of the San Siro.

Dortmund had theirs redeveloped in 2006 for the WC there. Interesting you mention them because everywhere else in the Bundesliga is a redevloped or new stadium.

OT is based on foundations built in 1910, the basic low tier is from the 60's with the bowl completed in the early 90's. With the distance between seats being a major issue and the ability to redevelop it to anything remotely compared to the current high-tech new stadiums extremely limited, there'd be little point in renovating OT.

Either you leave it as it is and say 'sod it' to any futureproofing or you do a massive job rebuilding it in which case we might as well rebuild it away from the train lines.

Don't get me wrong, I love OT for what it is, but it's massively outdated now. Any concessions to modern standards would reduce capacity massively to improve leg room and that would cost a bomb, plus redeveloping the South Stand would be a huge amount too. It needs a new roof entirely which may not be possible given the design as well.

Biggest/traditionally biggest teams and rivals in Europe right now.

City - modern stadium (2003 - redeveloped in 2015)
Arsenal - modern stadium (2006)
Spurs - modern stadium (2019)
Liverpool - redevloping
PSG - plans for redevlopment
Bayern - modern stadium (2006)
Dortmund - similar to OT but better suited
Leipzig - modern stadium with redevelopment plans
Real -redeveloping
Atletico - modern stadium (2017)
Barca - plans for redevelopment
Juve - modern stadium (2011)
Inter - plans for new stadium
Milan - plans for new stadium
Click to expand...

Even PSG was only built for World Cup 98 as well right?
 
UnitedFan93 said:
Moving to a new stadium would be a massive mistake. The club's that have done, the likes of Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham, have done so for economic reasons. They literally didn't have the space to expand so had to move. We already have the biggest stadium in the country, which will increase further to over 80,000. Old Trafford currently provides us with one of the highest match-day incomes in world football, so economically, it provides us with everything we need.

Agree, it needs modernising. The SBC stand needs knocking down and rebuilding. The facade needs a lot of money spending on it, to make it look uniform and modern. Concourses and toilet blocks throughout the stadium need to be made bigger. All this can be done, without having to move.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would be quite easy to build outwards to add new concourses and escalators etc.

I do think the leg room needs addressing as I had to move seats last time I was in the North Stand. I am 6ft 5 but that’s not super uncommon these days. Can you increase leg room without basically piledriving all the concrete and rebuilding the stand from the ground up? The steps for each row seem fairly set in stone.
 
Ferguson’s Hairdryer said:
Literally read the two dumbest posts.
1) Play games in Wembley wtf
2) New stadium because “everyone has one” as already mentioned “Liverpool, Everton, Chelsea, Aston Vila, Newcastle, Leeds… not to forget Real Madrid, Barca, AC/Inter, Dortmund: basically most of the biggest clubs in the premier league and Europe don’t have new stadiums.
Click to expand...

Surely the idea about building a "temporary" 60k capacity stadium was dumber.
 
A bigger stadium would be great, but in all honesty they don’t actually need to increase capacity too much. They need to modernise what is already there.

The London clubs all had tiny stadiums relative to their stature, so their only tangible option is to build fresh as they’re looking to double capacity straight off the bat. We’re already at 70k, but the facilities are shocking. Keep Old Trafford, but modernise the shit out of the concourse and surrounding area if possible. Increasing capacity by a further 5-10k is achievable too I imagine, with some ingenious architecture.

Improving Carrington is also crucial, let’s drag United into the 21st century.
 
sparx99 said:
Even PSG was only built for World Cup 98 as well right?
Click to expand...

No, you’re thinking of Stade de France which is the national stafium.

PSG are at the Parc des Princes, built in the 70’s but renovated in 1998 and 2016 for the respective tournaments. They’re on about moving the stands closer to the pitch cause they’re miles away behind each goal.
 
Sandikan said:
Surely the idea about building a "temporary" 60k capacity stadium was dumber.
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The Olympic Stadium was basically exactly that until West Ham took it over.

Other teams have built temporary stadiums to play in until their ground is finished.

It’s not dumb in the slightest.
 
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Who's paying this billion quid for a new stadium to match the capacity of what we have now? We are not in a 50k capacity stadium, that's what differentiates us from many clubs.

It's debt added onto a club that already carries debt. Manageable now, but add a billion on and suddenly our capacity to build competitive football teams is going to be significantly reduced for a long period to come.

And why? Because fans aren't happy with leg room or the toilets? It's not the solution. Not going to happen. Not practical. Not logical.
 
Grande said:
So almost everybody does like United and redevelop, but you want to scrap the whole stadium?

The Germans bombed Old Trafford, and that didn’t matter, but we should bin it because someone wants more leg space?

Old Trafford is football’s answer to La Sagrada Familia or Notre Dame.
Click to expand...

Roughly half of the teams mentioned are redeveloping. The rest have new grounds. The ones redeveloping have built new stands with more legroom and better facilities. When I mention the word redeveloped, I mean knocking down existing structures and rebuilding on the same site/same stand. Chelsea's is an entirely new ground on the site of Stamford Bridge, the Bundesliga teams have knocked down stands and rebuilt.

What happened in the 40’s has no bearing at all on 2021 so why you mentioned it I don’t know. The Germans bombed a lot of stuff, so what?

Leg space is a) terrible at OT and prohibitive for future plans for safe standing and b) exactly the type of things that modern stadium building and redevelopment takes into account so we’d be losing seats if we did modernise OT, just as we have done recently to accommodate more disabled spaces. It went down from 75k to 73k.

OT is hardly the Sagrada Familia or Notre Dame. Nothing from 1910 remains, it was wholly redeveloped in the 60’s to the 90’s into the very first soulless bowl. Or are you too young to remember that?

oldtraffordpast7.jpg


The redevelopments since then have been ill thought out and clearly not part of a masterplan. This gives it some character design wise but it's a mess with the North Stand not matching the side stands and the quadrants being a seriously weird bit of architecture and the roof blocking the view of the ground so it doesn't feel as imposing as it should. The top of the North Stand is almost as high as the top of the Nou Camp and Bernabeu yet it feels much, much smaller when you're sat in the ground because of the roof. The quadrants give you the best impression of just how big OT really is, otherwise it feels remarkably tiny for a 70k+ ground.

Nearly every new or redeveloped ground in the 90's to early 00's copied this template. Middlesbrough, Leicester, Sunderland, Newcastle, Derby, etc.

Nowadays you can design literally anything you want. Look at some of the NFL stadiums being built (which is what the Glazers might look towards).

We all love OT, we've all got fond memories of it as it is. It's way behind the times though, so even if they just redevlelop what's there they've got a lot of work to do to make it modern and it might just be that the cost of that becomes prohibitive to doing it properly, so they look towards a new one. The only thing they can realistically do is build some more executive boxes on top of the South Stand like a wall so it doesn't increase the footprint much. They won't add more seats because they won't pay to build across the trainlines to increase seating capacity in the current ground, I'm sure of it. Like it or lump it we need modern, wide concourses with proper food and beverage places cause they make a lot of money off it in new grounds, how are they gonna do that within the existing confines of OT?

People call new grounds soulless but every ground is when it's first built. It's the fans and the memories that give it soul, not the way it looks. It takes decades to build that up. The whole reason we love OT is in part because we've played there since 1910 so those memories are endless but we'd hardly be the first, nor the last to move grounds after a century or so. Progress and time matter.

We're thought of by our own fanbase as dinosaurs for the way the club is run and we're all constantly moaning that we need up to date styles of play, direction, scouting, management, etc. Why doesn't that extend to the place we play in?

I fully expect them to fix the roof and give it a lick of paint and have done with it, because that's the bare minimum but it won't change the fact that there are severe limitations in the current ground that impede on the matchday experience and certainly the more new grounds that are built that make a ton of cash from corporate things will affect how the Glazers see the current ground. We're pretty good on the corporate side but if they can't expand on that to match Barca, Real, Bayern, PSG, etc or the American football grounds when they redevelop then they'll think about doing something.
 
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Abraxas said:
Who's paying this billion quid for a new stadium to match the capacity of what we have now? We are not in a 50k capacity stadium, that's what differentiates us from many clubs.

It's debt added onto a club that already carries debt. Manageable now, but add a billion on and suddenly our capacity to build competitive football teams is going to be significantly reduced for a long period to come.

And why? Because fans aren't happy with leg room or the toilets? It's not the solution. Not going to happen. Not practical. Not logical.
Click to expand...

When every other team in the world can and does do it regularly, yet we can't because it's not practical or logical...
 
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