Northern Ireland Thread

Good post Jimmy. I think the last paragraph in particular is what my impression of the opinion of the average English man would be. There is no easy answer and there never will be.
 
I've always been quite conflicted about Britain's military and colonial history. I know they were different times but that doesn't make me entirely comfortable with what was done in various times and places.
 
Ramshock said:
Don't be a yellow bastard and say your piece.
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Both sides are as bad as each other, Bloody Sunday was bad craic, But what brought the whole thing closer to home was the IRA blowing up my home town (a mainly Catholic town) and killing 29 innocent people (a few of which I knew)

But more recently this bollocks about killing prison guards and police officers (even in Omagh again - cacs brother) and the attempted mortar attacks shows me how cowardly it has all become...

As well as that, the Loyalist protests that killed consumerism in Belfast for nearly 3 months, absolutely pathetic. feck "the cause", feck "No Surrender"

In my opinion NI/ROI in the short term is the best economic way forward, the ROI is fecked and probably couldn't afford to have NI back, there's a serious amount of government jobs (35% I think) which I doubt the Republic could pay anyway. And the price of drink down south is awful shocking!

Maybe I'm talking shit but thats just my slightly drunk 23 year old opinion...
 
Gaz. said:
In my opinion NI/ROI in the short term is the best economic way forward, the ROI is fecked and probably couldn't afford to have NI back, there's a serious amount of government jobs (35% I think) which I doubt the Republic could pay anyway. And the price of drink down south is awful shocking!

Maybe I'm talking shit but thats just my slightly drunk 23 year old opinion...
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At the moment Gaz you couldn't be more right with the last bit. No way could the ROI swallow NI at the moment, and until such a time as it's not such a repulsive idea for Unionists it won't happen anyway. We need to vast majority of people to be at least OKish with it.
 
Gaz. said:
Both sides are as bad as each other, Bloody Sunday was bad craic, But what brought the whole thing closer to home was the IRA blowing up my home town (a mainly Catholic town) and killing 29 innocent people (a few of which I knew)

But more recently this bollocks about killing prison guards and police officers (even in Omagh again - cacs brother) and the attempted mortar attacks shows me how cowardly it has all become...

As well as that, the Loyalist protests that killed consumerism in Belfast for nearly 3 months, absolutely pathetic. feck "the cause", feck "No Surrender"

In my opinion NI/ROI in the short term is the best economic way forward, the ROI is fecked and probably couldn't afford to have NI back, there's a serious amount of government jobs (35% I think) which I doubt the Republic could pay anyway. And the price of drink down south is awful shocking!

Maybe I'm talking shit but thats just my slightly drunk 23 year old opinion...
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Nope.. all valid points, theres so many aspects to this debate its hard to keep on track. I was simply trying to make a distinction about a cause and how its interpreted differently depending on perspective.
 
Gaz. said:
Both sides are as bad as each other, Bloody Sunday was bad craic, But what brought the whole thing closer to home was the IRA blowing up my home town (a mainly Catholic town) and killing 29 innocent people (a few of which I knew)

But more recently this bollocks about killing prison guards and police officers (even in Omagh again - cacs brother) and the attempted mortar attacks shows me how cowardly it has all become...

As well as that, the Loyalist protests that killed consumerism in Belfast for nearly 3 months, absolutely pathetic. feck "the cause", feck "No Surrender"

In my opinion NI/ROI in the short term is the best economic way forward, the ROI is fecked and probably couldn't afford to have NI back, there's a serious amount of government jobs (35% I think) which I doubt the Republic could pay anyway. And the price of drink down south is awful shocking!

Maybe I'm talking shit but thats just my slightly drunk 23 year old opinion...
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Also 75% of GDP is dependent on government spending.


Theresa Villiers said there was an urgent need to re-balance the local economy given the current pressures on public finances.

She told politicians and business leaders at the Long Gallery in Stormont: "Northern Ireland remains far too dependent on public spending to underpin economic activity. According to a number of reports, public spending here accounts for around three quarters of the whole of Northern Ireland's GDP
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http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ni-too-reliant-on-public-spending-29116349.html
 
As I said a while back, half of the young southerners couldn't give a shit and would see it as a major inconvenience. They have no bother talking about the hero's of 1916 and I'm sure that Michael Collins (movie) brought a tear to their eye but they are too selfish to have any true feelings of nationalism.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
As I said a while back, half of the young southerners couldn't give a shit and would see it as a major inconvenience. They have no bother talking about the hero's of 1916 and I'm sure that Michael Collins (movie) brought a tear to their eye but they are too selfish to have any true feelings of nationalism.
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Are you saying that with me in your mind? If so, you may have a slight point, I will never know first hand the atrocities my ancestors suffered, or the great feeling of despair that Ireland isn't united.

However I'd like to think I've read more on the issues than 90% of teenagers, and would classify myself as a Republican, but I can't say it would be one of the most important political issues to me, in this day and age.
 
Meh, not really aimed at you. I've actually made that point here in the past. Your post did set me off though.

Irish division should be a political goal and ideal for all Irish people IMO, and to not be bothered by it would indicate to me that you (the big you) couldn't give a shit about the Irish forced to live under British rule as a result of a half arsed deal done to secure freedom for the rest of the Island. If Cork or Dublin was invaded and still under foreign rule you would think more of it, but because it's up there and it doesn't effect me means that more and more people try to ignore it.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Meh, not really aimed at you. I've actually made that point here in the past. Your post did set me off though.

Irish division should be a political goal and ideal for all Irish people IMO, and to not be bothered by it would indicate to me that you (the big you) couldn't give a shit about the Irish forced to live under British rule as a result of a half arsed deal done to secure freedom for the rest of the Island. If Cork or Dublin was invaded and still under foreign rule you would think more of it, but because it's up there and it doesn't effect me means that more and more people try to ignore it.
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I pm'd moses about something similar to that once, as in what was the feeling, generally, down south about the troubles whilst it was happening and whether they even saw "us" (as in those up north who consider themselves Irish) as being Irish any more. I can't remember his exact response now as it was an age ago and I didn't want to start a thread about it.
 
The south like England are increasingly indifferent and it seems they both see it as an annoyance that they wish would just disappear.
 
I can't say I disagree.

I think it's because as much as it's important to me, it doesn't directly affect me, which is unfair, and also because 90% of the self professed 'Republicans' that I've come into contact with are scumbags, so I've distanced myself from them, and because of that, the whole movement of Republicanism.

I do go to Kilmainham Gaol every Easter, and Arbor Hill after, and I sell the Easter Lillys in my local area for the party, but I can't say I've been an active Republican, which is strange, as I have family ties with a lot of prominent (mostly dead) Republicans.
 
Like, I do want a United Ireland, I just don't think now's the right time for it, but if the British Army started a military campaign killing Irishmen and women in Belfast, I'd be enlisted in the army in the morning to try and protect my country.

I do view Irish people in the North as exactly that, Irish.
 
I'm not having a go at you directly Jake. It's the general apathy that has slapped me on the face every time I hear the North mentioned down here. I wasn't aware of it when I lived in the North, but even now when the RTE reports on Belfast it's like a foreign report. Might as well be Beirut the way they talk about it.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I'm not having a go at you directly Jake. It's the general apathy that has slapped me on the face every time I hear the North mentioned down here. I wasn't aware of it when I lived in the North, but even now when the RTE reports on Belfast it's like a foreign report. Might as well be Beirut the way they talk about it.
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I know, you're right about RTE, too. They go out of there way to avoid it.
 
jakec said:
Like, I do want a United Ireland, I just don't think now's the right time for it, but if the British Army started a military campaign killing Irishmen and women in Belfast, I'd be enlisted in the army in the morning to try and protect my country.

I do view Irish people in the North as exactly that, Irish.
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Well we are, well those of us who want to be Irish!
 
Ramshock said:
explain
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The idea of Ireland as a political entity didn't exist until a while after the Brits came here.

The only time we were united was with Britain, we have never been united alone.

When they arrived we were more divided than we are now. That's why they were able to defeat us so quickly. Petty King by Petty King.
 
Irwinwastheking said:
I'm not having a go at you directly Jake. It's the general apathy that has slapped me on the face every time I hear the North mentioned down here. I wasn't aware of it when I lived in the North, but even now when the RTE reports on Belfast it's like a foreign report. Might as well be Beirut the way they talk about it.
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Yeah, I used to have real issues with my peers back in the day. Explaining to the apathy to foreigners is what brought it home.

My not wanting a United Ireland now is that I don't see the point in just doing to the Unionists what was done to the Catholics in the North. Until we all want it, it shouldn't happen. Our mythical people's republic was based on the idea of a nation state and the homogenity within', which there isn't.
 
As a catholic Northern Irish man it would be expected that I would want a united Ireland (at the right time, in the right circumstances) but I don't. I feel totally detatched from the whole thing and maybe I've just been briticised or something but I feel no real national identity.

When people in Scotland go, Ahhh your Irish, let me bone you. I say no, i'm Northern Irish, but ok. But even that doesn't mean anything to me... I don't really sympathise at all with all the history and when I look at the troubles I just feel empathy for both sides. In a way it all feels sterile... I view it almost like I view WW2, something I learn about. Even though I've lived through bombs and had my windows and doors blown out (live beside a barracks) been assaulted because of my religion and known personal loss I find it very difficult to have a side or really care in way, it's just something I hate and want to be over. Could be me with the head in the sand just.

Maybe it's because of my abhorence at all things dissident. I have always, and still, want to be a Policeman and the actions of so-called republicans make me shameful.

thats the only real identity I feel I have if any: Not really Irish, not really British, ashamed to be called Northern Irish.
 
Duafc said:
As a catholic Northern Irish man it would be expected that I would want a united Ireland (at the right time, in the right circumstances) but I don't. I feel totally detatched from the whole thing and maybe I've just been briticised or something but I feel no real national identity.

When people in Scotland go, Ahhh your Irish, let me bone you. I say no, i'm Northern Irish, but ok. But even that doesn't mean anything to me... I don't really sympathise at all with all the history and when I look at the troubles I just feel empathy for both sides. In a way it all feels sterile... I view it almost like I view WW2, something I learn about. Even though I've lived through bombs and had my windows and doors blown out (live beside a barracks) been assaulted because of my religion and known personal loss I find it very difficult to have a side or really care in way, it's just something I hate and want to be over. Could be me with the head in the sand just.

Maybe it's because of my abhorence at all things dissident. I have always, and still, want to be a Policeman and the actions of so-called republicans make me shameful.

thats the only real identity I feel I have if any: Not really Irish, not really British, ashamed to be called Northern Irish.
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Perhaps a symptom of being younger so your life experience growing up was quite different from those a bit/lot older. Not a criticism and perhaps not a bad thing although I don't think you have anything to be ashamed of being Northern Irish.

My missus is from Belfast and despite having innocent family members murdered by paramilitaries she is hugely anti any and all violence and sectarianism but she is proudly Irish (rather than Northern Irish). Again probably a symptom of her Catholic background and growing up there in the late 60's and 70's. When I was a regular visitor there in the 80's Catholics generally seemed to consider themselves Irish and Protestants considered themselves either Northern Irish or British. I wonder how much that has changed?
 
All in all it's been a great thing for Ireland. Look how many conflict deaths in the 15 years preceding the GFA as opposed to the amount post GFA. So many lives have been saved and massive Kudos still to Hume and Trimble for being brave enough to push it through especially looking at it now retrospectively both parties have been decimated by game playing and brinkmanship from the other main parties on the back of their good work.
 
I have big problems with how both the DUP and Sinn Fein played the situation during the last 15 years. For the two most hardline of the popular parties to have played party politics with their stances is quite shocking. Not sure how people that vote for them can look past that TBH.

I know from a Nationalist POV that I would always have been from an SDLP family so that might cloud my view on this but the way that Sinn Fein cashed in on Hume's work has never sat right with me. SDLP need to stop coming across as such complaining bitches now though to get a decent foothold again.
 
I know prods that used to vote SDLP because of Humes work. Shame he's gone

DUP and Shinners are more out for themselves and what points they can score over the other tan a genuine want to help the people
 
golden_blunder said:
I know prods that used to vote SDLP because of Humes work. Shame he's gone

DUP and Shinners are more out for themselves and what points they can score over the other tan a genuine want to help the people
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I think that in order to maintain their position they need to keep sectarianism simmering, and to give the impression that they are standing up to the other side.
 
golden_blunder said:
I know prods that used to vote SDLP because of Humes work. Shame he's gone

DUP and Shinners are more out for themselves and what points they can score over the other tan a genuine want to help the people
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Sorry, I missed this post. SDLP back then was certainly trying to move more to the centre-ground in NI much like what the Alliance is doing. Now I could probebly still see some Protestants voting for them but not as much without the charisma and leadership of Hume. I think Durkan was a good man but he moaned and complained rather than looking like a real leader, Richie never excited me or came across as anything more than a stopgap. I know nothing about the current guy at all. Now with the new rules that Sinn Fein and DUP have brought in pretty much guaranteeing the sectarian nature of voting in the Stormont Elections I doubt very much if they have any non Catholic electorate.

Still, that doesn't get to the reason why moderate Catholics have abandoned the party. I just can't figure it out past the poor leaders after Hume.

Anyone?
 
Irwinwastheking said:
Sorry, I missed this post. SDLP back then was certainly trying to move more to the centre-ground in NI much like what the Alliance is doing. Now I could probebly still see some Protestants voting for them but not as much without the charisma and leadership of Hume. I think Durkan was a good man but he moaned and complained rather than looking like a real leader, Richie never excited me or came across as anything more than a stopgap. I know nothing about the current guy at all. Now with the new rules that Sinn Fein and DUP have brought in pretty much guaranteeing the sectarian nature of voting in the Stormont Elections I doubt very much if they have any non Catholic electorate.

Still, that doesn't get to the reason why moderate Catholics have abandoned the party. I just can't figure it out past the poor leaders after Hume.

Anyone?
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Speaking personally, they just seemed tired and stale and same old same old. My dad was SDLP all the way and helped out Eddie McGrady a lot but since the 90's they just don't resonate with ideological voters anymore. I think it stems from the change of Sinn Fein which morphed into a media savvy party with engaging leadership. To me SDLP just feel like a collection of dull bureaucratic bank manager types who don't appeal to me in any way what so ever. An old school mate of mine was a council chairman a few years ago and he seems to break the mold but then he is fruity as a nutcake and wouldn't be your typical dour SDLP man.
 
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