Young has confirmed he was offered more money at City, too. Didn't Berba also get offered more money there?
No transfers in January
- Thread starter devilish
- Start date
Shitty are still considered as a small club but the majority of top players. Building a name requires time.
That was then Lance, when City were not at the level they are now.
Back then we had just won the CL and PL and had Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney up front. City had just got their new owners, were not chalenging for the PL and were unable to guarantee CL football, nor did they have a huge squad of quality players to challenge on all fronts. All the examples of players turning down money, Valencia, Kaka and Berba were 3 years ago, since then City have signed Toure, Aguero, Balotelli, Silva, Nasri and Dzeko, who it could easily be argued have signed for financial reasons.
My point remains, Madrid, Barca and City can get whoever they want in the vast majority of instances, because they are willing to pay whatever it takes. We are not, for whatever reason and that is affecting our ability to make players who are said to be unavailable, available.
Utd have been able to dominate for years based upon our financial muscle. Chelsea raised that bar when roman took over, City have raised the bar even further now, and it is now at a level we cannot compete with. Surely then it is not unreasonable to suggest, that we are now not in as strong a position to sign the players we want as we once were, and that fact is complicating our attempts to sign the type of players we would ideally like too.
What does that have to do with the claim that it's all about the money?
Erm, Im agreeing with those who say that its not all about money. Money plays a big part in convincing a player to sign with a respective club but there's other issues like lifestyle (Barcelona for example is a great city to live in), the club's chances of winning important honors, the club's reputation, taxes etc.
We also managed to get our bargains too, or have always been great at seeing players who can come in and play now and develop in to stars, like Ronaldo did and Nani is as well as giving youth a chance. Just because other teams are spending stupid money it doesn't mean we have to join them. So many of these huge fees haven't worked out at all. Say we got Modric for 50M. Is he really going to add that much to the team? And that's not even including wages. Nasri at roughly 185K a week. Is he going to add enough to justify smashing our wage structure? Because once he's on then Nani would want parity and I'm sure others would follow. Rooneys was bad enough but at least he can claim to be a genuine top top player.
We're not uncompetitive. We can make a big signing when necessary, without spending stupid money, but also find gems who can step up. The team we have now can be very good. The european disappointment doesn't reflect the strength of the team. For all City's investment and great start they're only 2 points ahead of us. And that's by spending money when required but without needing to join the insanity of the others around us, who aren't exactly reaping the rewards. Chelsea despite all their expenditure have struggled, City aren't exactly far away, and we've yet to see with Real what's going to happen but Barca just showed they're still well ahead. Maybe its not all about spending?
We brought through players like Ronaldo, Nani, Jones etc for significant amounts but not stupid amounts. And we developed/are developing them in to stars. We've brought through our own youth players too. It just takes time. You can't always be on top. No team ever is. The teams not so weak that we have to get someone now. We can bide our time. There could be another Modric out there who just needs the right platform to show what he can do, and hopefully we can identify him and bring him in for a reasonable amount. Just because we have the money doesn't mean we need to spend it so frivolously.
Yes that's true as did Phil Jones from Liverpool apparently. but it really only highlights my point. Yourself, Lance and Eyepopper have found only a few examples in the last few years, but the point is that pool of players who are prepared to move for footballing reasons rather than financial, is diminishing by the year.
There was a time when it could be said with some certainty that money couldn't guarantee success, is that still the case? We are now in the time of the sugar daddy, and with the figures now being spent compared to decades gone by, it is becoming more difficult to be unsuccessful!
Without being able to compete financially with those mentioned, competing on the pitch will become increasingly difficult, and i believe that notion is evident in our own attempts to sign the type of player we need.
for the sake of argument i would concede that it may not be all about money just yet, but i think it's fair to say it is fast becoming more about money than it ever has been previously.
While this is a United site and our views are coloured by disliking the bitters it's becoming more difficult to dismiss players who move to City as doing it just for the money, though it undoubtedly plays a large part. They've arguably played the best football this season and given their wealth would be favourites to be successful in the long term if things stay as they are financially. Players with no affiliation to United will find it easy to reject the likes of us if they're offered more money at City and they have at least as good a chance of challenging for trophies. We might have the history and tradition but modern players aren't generally too interested in all of that. It's an issue of money and the ability to win medals for most of them.
God, what a bloody depressing post. Can't argue with it though.
Something like this:-
Out:
Brown: £2m
O'Shea: £6m
Obertan: £3m
Bebe: Loan
Tunnicliffe: Loan
Johnstone: Loan
Brady: Loan
Retired/Moved:
Scholes
Hargreaves
VDS
Expected Sales Fell Through:
Gibson: £6m
Kuscak: £3m
So basically we were expecting another £10m from the sale of players and SAF was very frustrated that the sale of Gibson in particular failed to go through but this also explains the reticence to let Kusczak go on loan to Leeds. Basically that £10m would have added to something like £15m in the pot to fund other players.
This would have been £25m for another midfielder. This ISN'T inside news. Just stuff I've put together reading various other managers and players who were involved in these transfers.
It would make a great dealof sense. I read at the beginning of the summer transfer window that there was a great deal of consternation at OT at the spending without confirmation that these players could exit.
So this transfer window it looks like we'll have more outgoings than incomings;-
Kusczak
Gibson
Macheda
Diouf (possibly)
and perhaps a couple of youngsters coming into the academy. Very difficult to call whether we'll get another midfielder. He'll have identified the type of midfielder we need first (i.e. defensive, box-to-box, creative-passer, creative-dribbler) but also place this against blocking the way of the youngsters coming through.
I don't believe SAF thinks central midfield is strong enough. He KNOWS what a central midfield is. Getting the right type of player is the thing and he knows, having made several mistakes in central midfield in the past that in addition to their main attribute (defensive, or creative-passer, or creative-dribbler) that they must be industrious - this is the main attribute that separates Manchester United central midfield players from midfield players at other clubs. Even if they are not blessed in other areas - if they are industrious enough they can make it here.
If they are not industrious SAF will not sign them and that is the great problem as we've had problems with Liam Miller, Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba, Veron who were lovely players on their day but not able to fit the industry that to win a Premier League entails.
Yeah, they've changed the landscape of the game. The only other factor I didn't mention was Fergie. If players like Jones and Young became available and he wasn't our manager our chances of getting them would probably be somewhat worse.
DjembaX2 had many problems but running around like a lunatic wasn't one of them.
Exactly Brophs, this is all i am saying, it is not meant to be a criticism of Utd or even the owners, if they are doing their best, then that is all you can ask of them.
But some posters on here, like it or not, will now have to accept that we are no longer going to be the first choice of players, especially from abroad. they will follow the riches and where the best players are, for the best chance of silverware.
This may no longer may us sooner than many think, we have already been unable to strengthen our team due to our financial limits, and that has given City the opportunity to catch up and arguably surpass our level. That is a situation that realistically is not going to improve anytime soon.
It does not paint a pretty picture for the future, and this i suppose is where we find out how serious the Glazers are about keeping the club competitive, or will their interest be revealed as mere money making.
It could even be argued that we are now in a similar situation to Arsenal after their 'invincible' season, where many world class legends left the club and the club were unable to compete with ourselves and Chelsea to replace them properly, so opted for a system based on buying youth for the future, and subsequently started to fall behind.
Very interesting, but i fail to see the relevance of any of it. Industriousness?
Our problem is not raising funds. It is matching wages and fees paid by City, Madrid and Barca, without having to up the earnings of the whole squad. This is where we cannot compete.
Don't kid yourself that we are not signing players because the Gibson deal or others fell through, or because we cannot find anyone who works hard enough.
That is just wishful thinking im afraid, and a refusal to accept the real issue. It was said not too long ago that football has become more of a business than a sport, that in itself is becoming less and less accurate. Now running a club as a profitable business is no longer enough to keep you at at the top. The clubs with super rich owners whose only concern is indulging their own egos, are taking the financial requirements for success to a higher level than ever before. Unfortunately one that currently and for the foreseeable future we are unable to reach.
I'm not surprised to see this. Very rarely have we went out and spent big at this time of the year. We did buy Evra and Vidic in the January transfer window, however they were purchased for relatively small transfer fees.
I could see us possibly making one or two signings when it comes to youth players, but don't expect a lot of major business from us then.
I could see us possibly making one or two signings when it comes to youth players, but don't expect a lot of major business from us then.
It is not exactly tradition is it now, to not spend at January irrespective of whether we need or don't need a player.We need a fecking player and we are running short of a midfielder in the center of the park who can command authority on the pitch/or a midfielder who can pull the strings and control the pace of the game with the ability to play a killer ball at the right moment. We are running short of a Scholes and a Roy Keane.Yes, there is no player out there who can be a scholes or a keane for us but plenty of players who can improve us at our current situation. Cup tied being a problem anymore? I don't think so. The League being our main priority right now, I would like it if we did everything we could to retain our title this year.
Yes Ash, its called quality, the higher the quality of the player we sign the more chance we have of improving. No guarantees of course, there never are, but generally i would say yes.
Impossible to predict how any player will affect a team either positively or negatively. Could anyone have imagined that Cleverley's inclusion would lead to some of the most devastating counter attack football we have seen in years, or the notion that we have been unable to reproduce anywhere near that standard ever since his injury?
These bargains Ash are becoming increasingly difficult to find. Chairmen know they can ask for exorbitant fees for their stars and increasingly so even for potential stars. We ourselves have just spent £50m on 3 players who still have it all to prove, based solely on their potential. Hernandez was a bargain, but shopping like that is always a risk, look at Obertan, Diouf, Manucho and Bebe for prime examples of risks not paying off. Some may even throw Anderson into that category, though i am not one of them.
This scenario is focused on planning more for the future than for the present, otherwise we would be buying established players who have shown their worth, rather than gambling on kids, who in time may or may not prove to be world class.
Let's not forget Arsenal tried this very same approach after the invincibles, and they have won nothing since. It is not a question of time, it is a question of being able to compete. Arsenal's kids were talented and exciting, but a lack of investment in experience and leadership has cost them time and again.
The youth only policy simply does not work, if we buy ten youngsters maybe only half will turn out to be what was originally hoped for, and that is a generous expectation in my view. City are buying proven players of the highest quality, and the vast majority of them are working out, just as it happened with Chelsea.
Chelsea have struggled not because of lack of funds, but due to poor leadership. Roman expected to buy all the best players about and then sit back and dominate for years. His mistake was attempting to make Chelsea self sufficient, and somewhat withdrawing his support for endless transfer funds.
His mistake was having a long term vision for the club, which overridden the emphasis on the team in the present. Had Roman continued how he started at Chelsea, i believe they would have fared much better. They have still not recovered from letting so many players go after winning the double simply to trim the wage bill, and only realising that whopping error after suffering the worst run of results in years. The subsequent panic buys were too little too late and have not worked out anywhere near as hoped.
This proves my point, Chelsea were much more competitive when they worked under no financial restrictions, than they have been since trying to run the club as a profitable business with restrictions in place.
We are in the same boat. We have financial restrictions that limit our ability to buy the type of player we need. So we have to buy a young player and hope he turns into the player we need. But while buying only for the future, the team in the present does not improve sufficiently or begins to stagnate as a result.
Aponeurosis is spot on.
Well firstly I don't think Modric for 50M excluding wages is going to add that much to the team to justify an outlay of that amount.
Going for bargains doesn't necessarily mean you just have to do that though. That's the point. Arsenal look to much for the bargains and are very constrained by their financial set up and the likes of Chelsea/City/Real, have gone the other way and spent huge money and have exponential wage structures. We're somewhere in between. We don't just look for bargains, (I do agree that some of the recent purchases such as Diouf, Manucho, Bebe etc, have been silly), but we don't spend the stupid money either. We've shown with the likes of Berbatov that we can and will spend big but when we deem it necessary. That's the point. It's about finding that balance. Chelsea have been slightly more restrained in recent years but in Mourinho's third season it wasn't about financial constraints, we had found a way to catch up with them. It didn't need stupid money, it required some outlay but it was also about giving players time. City have spent fortunes and yet despite out poor start they're not out of sight are they.
We've managed to build a team with a great blend of youth and experience. We're not far off the top, yes we're out of europe, but that was a freak occurrence brought on by a number of factors. All we're missing is one top player. But that player isn't going to make or break us. City have virtually the same team to last season, they've swapped Aguero for Tevez, and they were well off the pace last season. And that's with all the problems we had. This season the've been op top of their game, we haven't and we could go top tomorrow. They haven't suddenly become a much better team though then us . They're playing better right now but we're capable of playing just as well.
Yes sometimes you have to spend big, but it doesn't mean you have to spend as big as some clubs are willing to go. We're a perfect example of a club who will spend when they need to but are also able to identify talent which can be nurtured as well as bring through our own players. And that's the key to success. That's how you bring together a team of players. We've never had to continually go out and spend huge money on players, we've spent big here and there, but nothing continuous.
You mention Chelsea struggling because they're looking to the long term, but surely that's the way you should do it. This culture of instant success has caused a situation in football where managers get no time and clubs are increasingly getting into financial trouble. Now we have some trouble of our own but that's been thrust on us, in terms of football activities we're superbly run. Going back to Arsenal, they've managed to stay relatively competitive and are in a strong position. If tighter rules did come in, Arsenal would be in a great position and their long term future is very secure. They've not won anything yet but that could easily change.
For all these big spending clubs isn't much to show for them. Chelsea as we've seen have had limited success. Real are still trailing Barca, maybe if they stopped constantly bringing in the latest star and let a group of players build as a team they might be getting closer. PSG have just been knocked out of the europa league. As we've seen City have hardly run away from us and are out of the CL as well albeit from a very tough group. Point is though that money doesn't guarantee success. And just going out looking to spend big money can lead to getting players coming for the wrong reasons.
I agree that spending is necessary, as is spending big at times. But it doesn't need to be something you have to do often, and you don't have to spend the outrageous amounts going around today. Our team isn't bad. We've made a poor start and suffered from injuries, but it's not bad. We've barely been able to play a constant first eleven. It certainly isn't so bad that we have to go and spend 50M or something to go get player x, who might be a great player for us. I don't think a player could bring so much more to the team for that amount. And I don't think it's a precedent we want to set.
Ash i don't disagree with any of that but you are missing the point completely. I have said repeatedly i do not think we should spend ridiculous sums. But the point i am making is the fact city and Madrid are doing so makes it increasingly difficult for us to sign the type of players we need without being willing to match those levels.
I have never said our team is bad, or that we cannot compete yet on the pitch. what i am suggesting is why we have not been able to strengthen our midfield so far and why that has stalled any improvement.
I am blaming the greed brought on throughout football by this ridiculous spending as the reason we are unable to buy the players we want. Being unable to strengthen as we need to is now hampering the first team. Fergie wanted to strengthen in the summer, we went for Nasri, and if not for City, we would have got him, the reason we didn't get him is because City offered more money.
While we are hoping for reasonable valuations and demands, City are making offers that can not be refused, and that makes unavailable players suddenly very available. We have never bought world class players really, but the point i am trying to make is that now even potential, which is our specialty is now also becoming increasingly difficult to broker a reasonable deal for.
We signed Rooney for undeniable world class potential, even moreso than ronaldo at that age, because we offered more than Newcastle. We are now in Newcastles position back then, we can bid and offer terms but we cannot match those being offered by City. Goetze is another Rooney like talent imo, undeniable world class potential, are we still in a position where we are able or even willing to seriously compete for his signature?
If not then surely you see my point how even potential is now being catapulted into the realms of ridiculous expenditure. The game is changing and not for the better, hopefully the new FFP restrictions will prove to be a leveller, but that as yet remains to be seen. Platini seems less intent on curtailing excessive funding now that it has found it's way into France. City's Saudi money was deemed bad for football he said, yet PSG's money is somehow now a great boost for French football. Go figure!
That's a good post, but I would like to think that there are still players out there for whom money isn't the sole criteria for picking a club, in which case we will always be more attractive than City for certain layers given our rich history.
That might well be wishful thinking for me, but here's hoping.
Oh right. Sorry I must have been reading your posts wrong. Yeah I agree that the likes of real, city etc are inflating the market but I also think that there will always be more players who have the ability to step up given the right platform then there are clubs that they could go to. I don't think that for example the likes of real and city can suck up all the talent going. At least I hope anyway. It might make it harder to find the talent but I still think its possible and I think players will still come even if we don't offer the wages others do. As long as we remain competitive we'll always be a top choice for a player. I don't think we're quite in the situation of Newcastle in that I think we're capable of matching some of the wages paid but we just don't want to cross that line. The inflation in wages and transfer fees these last few years hasn't kept with the rate of increase in money coming in to football and as a result I don't think we're willing to pay the fees some ask. So taking this summer had we really wanted a sneijder etc we could easily have not gone for young and added what money we were trying to get sneijder with. Or more then that I'm sure if we were interested in sneijder we must have known he would have cost upwards of 30m and so must have been able to make that sort off expenditure. I'm guessing though that we didn't want to pay the extra amounts that were being suggested more out of principle. Similarly I'm sure that we could have paid his wages but again we didn't want to out of principle. I suppose though that's still a restrictions as we're trying to work within a business model but the likes of city aren't.
You're right they have made it harder but they haven't made it impossible. Hopefully the FFP brings some order back but even if it doesn't I think we can remain competitive without needing to go to those levels of expenditure. There's always talent out there that others won't know about and there's only so many players clubs like city can take. Furthermore I think that in the case of city and real where they may be over stockpiling on players they might be showing others that it's not all about money. For example Nasri at city. He got his big pay packet but he's not playing regularly and I'm sure he wishes he was particularly with the euros coming.
You big meanie, Frogie.
He still states that if our main target were to be available... We will still go for him... Cock out time !!!!
To the Main Target thread!
To be honest, who are the players available Fergie can sign that can make Manchester United better than already are with age as a factor as well? I can only imagine Gotze and he's probably Bayern bound sooner or later, no one else i suppose. Stick to what we have got then evaluate in the summer, plus we still have both Cleverley and Ando to come back 
I think the player going to Bayern is Reus...
Available would mean that we actually met up with the players price tag, which I think everyone is available but we are probably waiting to pounce at the right time without having to make those panic buys...
Right now as we certainly have little cover for the DM spot, M'Vila + Banega would be up on my list... Khedira on the cheap wouldn't be bad either.
Available would mean that we actually met up with the players price tag, which I think everyone is available but we are probably waiting to pounce at the right time without having to make those panic buys...
Right now as we certainly have little cover for the DM spot, M'Vila + Banega would be up on my list... Khedira on the cheap wouldn't be bad either.
I give up
Fergies annual salary is probably higher than his transfer budget.
At least we're not going to buy some rubbish signing in Bebe/Diouf's mould. Id rather see us see us win nothing next season. Watching these so called players wearing the red shirt is a bit painful to watch.
He says this pretty much every transfer window.
Not surprised at all.
We dont need too many players. Maybe 1-2.
The need isnt desperate enough to buy just for the sake of it. We have a few in mind. If it works out, then great. If not, we are fine with what we have.
We dont need too many players. Maybe 1-2.
The need isnt desperate enough to buy just for the sake of it. We have a few in mind. If it works out, then great. If not, we are fine with what we have.
so to you, who's not worthy to wear the shirt devilish?
I've already mentioned two of them (Diouf and Bebe), one can also add the brochure guy too.
In my opinion the team needs some real soul searching which goes beyond the transfer market. The starting point should be why we have so many injuries year in year out. Its pointless bringing in the Modric's, the Hamsik's and the Gaitan's if they end up fecking to the treatment room for months.
Once that is settled then we have to answer other uncomfortable questions like whether its worth to keep a 20m rated striker as 4th choice or why the feck we have so much dead wood in the team (Diouf, Bebe, Owen etc). Once we had tackled those two problems then we can look at the team with the right concept and see what we need and what we don't need.
Honestly I can understand SAF's view for not spending money. Its difficult to get the players you want in January (altough there will be clubs willing to sell if their star players are close to the end of their contracts). With the CL gone there isn't much point of getting new players in. The mistakes were made during the summer where we insisted in starting the season without re-inforcing CM adequately.
Once that is settled then we have to answer other uncomfortable questions like whether its worth to keep a 20m rated striker as 4th choice or why the feck we have so much dead wood in the team (Diouf, Bebe, Owen etc). Once we had tackled those two problems then we can look at the team with the right concept and see what we need and what we don't need.
Honestly I can understand SAF's view for not spending money. Its difficult to get the players you want in January (altough there will be clubs willing to sell if their star players are close to the end of their contracts). With the CL gone there isn't much point of getting new players in. The mistakes were made during the summer where we insisted in starting the season without re-inforcing CM adequately.
Tbh he does say "if someone is available".
So its not a complete no-no.
So its not a complete no-no.