Niklas Süle \ signs for Dortmund

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2ndTouch said:
- at least 1 of Boa, Hummels and Martinez is always injured. We had Alaba playing CB for us this season on several occasions already
- the 3 mentioned above will all be 29 already when Süle joins. Having a top flight talent of a younger age bracket is a sign of wise squad planning
- Alonso is getting phased out, and probably won't be with us as a player anymore next season, meaning Javi might move up into midfield

This is a great signing for us, and Süle will get his minutes, no worries.
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Okay, please hear me out and convince me otherwise because this kind of thing really annoys me for some reason.

Boateng and Badstuber and Martinez/Alaba were CBs a season ago, and so then clearly there was room for a CB and Bayern went out and made a shrewd purchase of Benatia. At the time, Benatia was playing at a world-class level in Italy and wasn't known for being perennially injured. This was his chance to step up to a massive club and either be a starter with Boateng or be a great back-up. So he came and apparently got injured a lot and played badly when he did play. Why is that his last chance? It's his first season at a big club and in a different country. You know how well he played at Roma. Why couldn't he get a final chance this season? Why the constant turnover of new players without good reason?

It's the same reason I was against selling the likes of Darmian and Depay in the summer. They were shite last season but I know that this is real life and not FIFA. They're still shite now so fair enough, if they were sold I wouldn't have any complaints. It's the same reason I was against the whole Felipe Luis, Cuadrado, Salah stories at Chelsea. Why can't Benatia get a second crack at the whip? What's he going to prove at Juve to make Bayern's bosses reconsider? Nothing, because it isn't Germany and they've already made up their minds about him. Which also reflects badly on them in part.

If Boateng and Hummels turn 29 by the time Sule comes, they still have at least 3 years I would imagine to contribute at a top level. And that's what's expected. So if that happens, as expected, does that mean Sule will spend 3 years of his career and the most crucial years of his development (21-24) as a back-up, even with the former two CB's getting niggles here and there?

How are Bayern going to deal with the Ribery and Robben situations? Are Coman and Costa enough? What happens when Costa has one bad season after all he's shown so far? Out the door straight away and then Reus and Dembele in?

Please understand that I'm not advocating complacency. If a player clearly shows for more than one season that he cannot make the step up to the elite level or can't adjust to Germany then I'm not saying you should just stick with him for the sake of it. But I feel sometimes that these kinds of decisions are taken a bit too quickly and while you can't argue with the results for the team as a whole, I can't help but feel some players' individual development might suffer as a result.
 
2ndTouch said:
This is a great signing for us, and Süle will get his minutes, no worries.
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Not sure if Kimmich will stay at full back or move back into midfield but

Kimich...sule... alaba... Bernat

Could play together for the next decade and in terms of technically adept defenders would be an amazing base to build from

Great long term planning and of course lahm, boatang and hummles as well...

Jealous!
 
NYAS said:
Okay, please hear me out and convince me otherwise because this kind of thing really annoys me for some reason.

Boateng and Badstuber and Martinez/Alaba were CBs a season ago, and so then clearly there was room for a CB and Bayern went out and made a shrewd purchase of Benatia. At the time, Benatia was playing at a world-class level in Italy and wasn't known for being perennially injured. This was his chance to step up to a massive club and either be a starter with Boateng or be a great back-up. So he came and apparently got injured a lot and played badly when he did play. Why is that his last chance? It's his first season at a big club and in a different country. You know how well he played at Roma. Why couldn't he get a final chance this season? Why the constant turnover of new players without good reason?
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Benatia never really settled in München, and wanted to leave. So when Juve came with an offer, we obliged. Sometimes things don't work out as desired. There isn't much more to say about this matter.


NYAS said:
If Boateng and Hummels turn 29 by the time Sule comes, they still have at least 3 years I would imagine to contribute at a top level. And that's what's expected. So if that happens, as expected, does that mean Sule will spend 3 years of his career and the most crucial years of his development (21-24) as a back-up, even with the former two CB's getting niggles here and there?
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You do realize us being a european top club who has to cope with 60 games a season, do you? Again, both Hummels and Boateng are known for catching up injuries every now and then. Boateng is undergoing a surgery this week, and will be out for at least 2 months.
You can't seriously expect us to rely solely on these 2 considering our schedule. Süle *will* get plenty minutes.


NYAS said:
How are Bayern going to deal with the Ribery and Robben situations? Are Coman and Costa enough? What happens when Costa has one bad season after all 's shown so far? Out the door straight away and then Reus and Dembele in?
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Ribery and Robben will go into their last season next year. As you may know they are both, on average, available for less than 50% of a season. That leaves us with only Costa and Coman(who is currently injured) for the wing positions. So, no I don't expect us to show Costa the way to the door, rather than buying us another winger to set us up properly for the future.
I hope *gasp* for Forsberg, who would be a perfect substitute for Ribs as a playmaking LW, but I fear we're gonna end up with Brandt.
 
NYAS said:
This was his chance to step up to a massive club and either be a starter with Boateng or be a great back-up. So he came and apparently got injured a lot and played badly when he did play. Why is that his last chance? It's his first season at a big club and in a different country. You know how well he played at Roma. Why couldn't he get a final chance this season? Why the constant turnover of new players without good reason?
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Benatia had two complete seasons at Bayern, so I dont understand what you saying. He got that 2nd chance after his 1st season and nothing changed. Boateng, Martinez and Badstuber have all been injured and guess who also? Right, your boy Benatia, who was unfortunately also always injured when needed. That was the reason Alaba needed to make so many games as CB the years before.

So after two years Bayern AND Benatia decided its enough. Both accepted, that it wont work and decided to part ways and Benatia had the wish to go back to Italy. Bayern even accepted a shady loan instead of straight cash. What else do you want them to do? Why are you constantly bemoaning the most simplistic things?
 
Benatia was unhappy and wanted to leave for a while. If he got his wish, he would have left even earlier. It didn't make sense at all to keep Benatia. He was an underperforming and unhappy player constantly injured on high wages who wanted to leave and we got an offer that made sense for him, Bayern and Juve.

Such a stupid discussion.
 
@NYAS Benatia actually has the habits to be injured and he also only played at the level required by Bayern during 24 months before joining them.

As for the rest Bayern wants to have a core of German players, they are going to lose some of them in the near future and they can't really let someone like Sule or Tah go abroad.
 
Nostradamus said:
Benatia had two complete seasons at Bayern, so I dont understand what you saying. He got that 2nd chance after his 1st season and nothing changed. Boateng, Martinez and Badstuber have all been injured and guess who also? Right, your boy Benatia, who was unfortunately also always injured when needed. That was the reason Alaba needed to make so many games as CB the years before.

So after two years Bayern AND Benatia decided its enough. Both accepted, that it wont work and decided to part ways and Benatia had the wish to go back to Italy. Bayern even accepted a shady loan instead of straight cash. What else do you want them to do? Why are you constantly bemoaning the most simplistic things?
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Unfortunately it's not that quite simplistic. What I'm basically being told in this thread is because player 1 is always injured, and player 2 is always injured, and player 3 is always injured, you need a new player. So what happens when Sule gets injured as often? Will you keep buying players or maybe try to solve this injury problem?

My boy isn't Benatia, the crux of the matter is that I think Sule with his age and potential should be playing as much as possible to keep developing as he is, particularly for the most important years of his development coming up. In other words, somewhere where he would be first-choice.

Balu said:
Benatia was unhappy and wanted to leave for a while. If he got his wish, he would have left even earlier. It didn't make sense at all to keep Benatia. He was an underperforming and unhappy player constantly injured on high wages who wanted to leave and we got an offer that made sense for him, Bayern and Juve.

Such a stupid discussion.
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The original discussion was about the fact that Sule will be 3rd choice which I disagreed with. Maybe you could have commented on that instead of the Benatia issue if it was so stupid. It's not that serious.
 
NYAS said:
The original discussion was about the fact that Sule will be 3rd choice which I disagreed with. Maybe you could have commented on that instead of the Benatia issue if it was so stupid. It's not that serious.
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We played the last few games with Alaba and Martinez at centerback. Somehow I'm not worried at all that Süle will get more than enough minutes if we actually sign him.
 
Balu said:
We played the last few games with Alaba and Martinez at centerback. Somehow I'm not worried at all that Süle will get more than enough minutes if we actually sign him.
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Fine. Bayern will make use of a player of Sule's quality, that's not in question. I just cannot agree that this would be the best move for his development at this point in his career.
 
NYAS said:
Fine. Bayern will make use of a player of Sule's quality, that's not in question. I just cannot agree that this would be the best move for his development at this point in his career.
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It's only true if he isn't good enough to displace the current players, which isn't a given.
 
JPRouve said:
It's only true if he isn't good enough to displace the current players, which isn't a given.
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I believe in Sule's potential probably more than anyone and maybe I even overrate him, but even with that I would be shocked if he displaces those two permanently in the next year. They might be going through a rough patch but their quality is not in doubt, and still have a few years ahead of them.
 
NYAS said:
I believe in Sule's potential probably more than anyone and maybe I even overrate him, but even with that I would be shocked if he displaces those two permanently in the next year. They might be going through a rough patch but their quality is not in doubt, and still have a few years ahead of them.
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Personally I don't know but what I think is that other clubs were sniffing around him and they probably don't want to see him sign for anyone else when he leaves Hoffenheim. And he probably wants to play for them too.
 
JPRouve said:
Personally I don't know but what I think is that other clubs were sniffing around him and they probably don't want to see him sign for anyone else when he leaves Hoffenheim. And he probably wants to play for them too.
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Think so too, but this a general problem nowadays. Teams are forced to buy players pretty early because of the current market situation. So one good season is enough and you will be transfered while for most of the young guys it would be better to stay at their current team and get bigger minutes. Sure some players, like dembele at dortmund this season, hit the grounds right from the start. But for most of them the move is probably to early.

sun_tzu said:
Not sure if Kimmich will stay at full back or move back into midfield but

Kimich...sule... alaba... Bernat

Could play together for the next decade and in terms of technically adept defenders would be an amazing base to build from

Great long term planning and of course lahm, boatang and hummles as well...

Jealous!
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Kimmich plays most of the the time as cm for us. 4 of 19 games as fullback, this is more of a national team thing. Will be interesting to see what position rudy will play and if we will buy a new fullback when lahm retires (rafinha renewd his contract already). Still we got some promising players back there thats right
 
Bernerr said:
Think so too, but this a general problem nowadays. Teams are forced to buy players pretty early because of the current market situation. So one good season is enough and you will be transfered while for most of the young guys it would be better to stay at their current team and get bigger minutes. Sure some players, like dembele at dortmund this season, hit the grounds right from the start. But for most of them the move is probably to early.



Kimmich plays most of the the time as cm for us. 4 of 19 games as fullback, this is more of a national team thing. Will be interesting to see what position rudy will play and if we will buy a new fullback when lahm retires (rafinha renewd his contract already). Still we got some promising players back there thats right
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Well having Kimmich and Sanchez in midfield sounds like a pretty good plan for the future as well... again jealous
 
Looks like Bayern have sealed his signing as per BILD Sport.
 
Balu said:
We played the last few games with Alaba and Martinez at centerback. Somehow I'm not worried at all that Süle will get more than enough minutes if we actually sign him.
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Has Javi Martinez been decimated by injury? He was monstrous in that treble winning team. These days I only see him at CB, where he is decidedly average IMO.

And what position does Alaba actually play? Keep hearing he's the greatest player in the making, and he does ooze quality, but whenever I watch Bayern - admittely rarely - he's playing in a different position. This can't be helpful at this point in his career. Is he in danger of becoming a very high quality John O'Shea?
 
schwalbe said:
Make it 5 and that's how you not get fleeced all the time.
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But that's also how you'll miss out on targets, especially from PL rich clubs. Saying that, Bayern showed that they would pay dollar if needed, when they got Renato Sanches.
 
United Pro said:
But that's also how you'll miss out on targets, especially from PL rich clubs. Saying that, Bayern showed that they would pay dollar if needed, when they got Renato Sanches.
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Funny to read such stuff which ignores that a move comprises of deals of three different parties. You forget an important party involved: The player.

If he is open for a move elsewhere, like Kevin de Bruyne was, you are correct. If the player, however, is firm to move to Bayern, it doesn't matter what other clubs bid for fee. Mario Götze and Robert Lewandowski (and probably a few other players) say hello.
 
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United Pro said:
But that's also how you'll miss out on targets, especially from PL rich clubs. Saying that, Bayern showed that they would pay dollar if needed, when they got Renato Sanches.
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Bayern will get him. The player wants to go there, it's just a case of waiting a bit and making them sweat. Bayern know this and that's why they get good deals.
 
Crossie said:
Funny to read such stuff which ignores that a move comprises of deals of three different parties. You forget an important party involved: The player.

If he is open for a move elsewhere, like Kevin de Bruyne was, you are correct. If the player, however, is firm to move to Bayern, it doesn't matter what other clubs bid for fee. Mario Götze and Robert Lewandowski (and probably a few other players) say hello.
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Hasn't Sule said he wants to move to the premier league or was it United in particular? Many players nowadays care more about money than their professional interest and in this case, it isn't even necessarily true that Bayern is the best move for Sule, given that all of Boateng, Hummels and Martinez are all only 28 and will play for a good few more years at the top level. And on your point about Gotze and Lewandowski, Gotzes release clause was paid out and Lewandowski ran down his contract. Sule is contracted until 2019, so he's still got 2.5 years left on his contract, so if he tries forcing Hoffenheims hands by running down his contract, he may have to wait a while. But you're correct in that the player ultimately has the power in where he ends up.
 
United Pro said:
Hasn't Sule said he wants to move to the premier league or was it United in particular? Many players nowadays care more about money than their professional interest and in this case, it isn't even necessarily true that Bayern is the best move for Sule, given that all of Boateng, Hummels and Martinez are all only 28 and will play for a good few more years at the top level. And on your point about Gotze and Lewandowski, Gotzes release clause was paid out and Lewandowski ran down his contract. Sule is contracted until 2019, so he's still got 2.5 years left on his contract, so if he tries forcing Hoffenheims hands by running down his contract, he may have to wait a while. But you're correct in that the player ultimately has the power in where he ends up.
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To your points in chronological order:
  1. I don't follow Süle's statements and therefore cannot comment if he has a crush on United. :D
  2. I disagree that for most players it is about money, or to be more precise: Money isn't everything. Titles and for younger players development paths are IMHO often their priority; more and more, who's managing the club also plays a role (although this position can change very quickly).
    I'm aware that this is a very unpopular opinion in a United forum but there is no guarantee that you will win the title within the next let's say 5 years. Of course the same applies to Chelsea, City, Arsena, Spurs, Liverpool.
    Unlike in Germany, you don't have such a big gap between the strengths of clubs. As things stand right now though, joining Bayern equals a title guarantee.
    Other factors to consider: For young current BL players it is comfortable to take one step at a time: They can focus solely on adapting to play for a new club on a much higher level rather than doing that plus moving to a new country with a new culture, new language and playing in a new league.
  3. Out of the three Bayern CBs you've mentioned, at least one will be injured or not fit to play. Furthermore, Martinez isn't bound to a CB role at all, and Bayern will make deep runs in all competitions. I don't see any problem for Süle to get game time.
  4. My point regarding Lewandowski refers to the summer when he wanted to move but we didn't let him. I admit I could have been clearer. Real outbid Bayern that summer but Lewandowski wasn't interested. So our CEO decided to not sell him for peanuts but rather let his contract run down.
  5. I was wrong to put Götze into the mix with Lewandowski, my bad. However, the point I was trying to make is that he declined an offer from City who reportedly offered him and Dortund more money than Bayern.
  6. I don't think Hoffenheim will force Süle to stay and wouldn't be surprised if there's something in his contract that facilitates that he can leave although it doesn't substantiate what is a classic exit clause. German magazine Der SPIEGEL released last Saturday many contract details of players (mostly Bundesliga or former Bundesliga players), and it gives great insights into how inventive agents have become to protect their players' interests.
 
How do Bundesliga clubs repeatedly bend over for Bayern like this? They would've added £20m onto his pricetag if an English club was solely interest but because it's Bayern they willingly get bullied.

What a complete joke of a league.
 
BlueCelery said:
How do Bundesliga clubs repeatedly bend over for Bayern like this? They would've added £20m onto his pricetag if an English club was solely interest but because it's Bayern they willingly get bullied.

What a complete joke of a league.
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What a load of BS.
Which player would have been 20m cheaper for Bayern than for the PL clubs? Also, it's called negotiation for a reason. Not Bayern's fault that the PL negotiation tactic is to "Blow them out of the water".
 
Crossie said:
To your points in chronological order:
  1. I don't follow Süle's statements and therefore cannot comment if he has a crush on United. :D
  2. I disagree that for most players it is about money, or to be more precise: Money isn't everything. Titles and for younger players development paths are IMHO often their priority; more and more, who's managing the club also plays a role (although this position can change very quickly).
    I'm aware that this is a very unpopular opinion in a United forum but there is no guarantee that you will win the title within the next let's say 5 years. Of course the same applies to Chelsea, City, Arsena, Spurs, Liverpool.
    Unlike in Germany, you don't have such a big gap between the strengths of clubs. As things stand right now though, joining Bayern equals a title guarantee.
    Other factors to consider: For young current BL players it is comfortable to take one step at a time: They can focus solely on adapting to play for a new club on a much higher level rather than doing that plus moving to a new country with a new culture, new language and playing in a new league.
  3. Out of the three Bayern CBs you've mentioned, at least one will be injured or not fit to play. Furthermore, Martinez isn't bound to a CB role at all, and Bayern will make deep runs in all competitions. I don't see any problem for Süle to get game time.
  4. My point regarding Lewandowski refers to the summer when he wanted to move but we didn't let him. I admit I could have been clearer. Real outbid Bayern that summer but Lewandowski wasn't interested. So our CEO decided to not sell him for peanuts but rather let his contract run down.
  5. I was wrong to put Götze into the mix with Lewandowski, my bad. However, the point I was trying to make is that he declined an offer from City who reportedly offered him and Dortund more money than Bayern.
  6. I don't think Hoffenheim will force Süle to stay and wouldn't be surprised if there's something in his contract that facilitates that he can leave although it doesn't substantiate what is a classic exit clause. German magazine Der SPIEGEL released last Saturday many contract details of players (mostly Bundesliga or former Bundesliga players), and it gives great insights into how inventive agents have become to protect their players' interests.
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Good post. On your points 2 and 3: Yes you're right in that money isn't everything and that the deciding factors in a transfer from the players POV is a balance between: money, winning trophies and personal development. I'll give it you that he's likely to win more at Bayern than likely any EPL clubs in the next 5 years, but he could definitely earn more elsewhere and frankly I don't think, in the short term anyway, moving to Bayern is the best for his development. Boateng and Hummels will be first choice when fit with Martinez likely 3rd choice. Sule, if he was to become first choice, would likely have to overtake Hummels (much more similar in play style than Boateng) and I can't see that happening in the next 2/3 years. And with regards to Martinez, he can play CDM, but Bayern are well stocked in options, even if Alonso leaves with Vidal, Kimmich (Bayern reportedly want a new RB so Kimmich is likely midfield bound), Thiago and Sanches, so Martinez is likely in the future going to be playing CB. None of this definitively means Sule won't get any game time, but if I were him, I'd move to a team where I would be first choice, while also competing in the top competitions. Surely, a club like Dortmund would be a better shout, especially as a LCB in a 3 man defence that Dortmund now play? And if it was Sule's dream to play for Bayern, he'd just have to run down his contract and he'd get a move there in 4/5 years time. ;)
 
BlueCelery said:
How do Bundesliga clubs repeatedly bend over for Bayern like this? They would've added £20m onto his pricetag if an English club was solely interest but because it's Bayern they willingly get bullied.

What a complete joke of a league.
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Here we go. Get the popcorn.
 
United Pro said:
... but he could definitely earn more elsewhere and frankly I don't think, in the short term anyway, moving to Bayern is the best for his development. ....
None of this definitively means Sule won't get any game time, but if I were him, I'd move to a team where I would be first choice, while also competing in the top competitions. Surely, a club like Dortmund would be a better shout, especially as a LCB in a 3 man defence that Dortmund now play? And if it was Sule's dream to play for Bayern, he'd just have to run down his contract and he'd get a move there in 4/5 years time. ;)
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I don't think that at this age and stage of development, he is driven by money alone. In terms of game time, I'm confident we can peacefully agree to disagree :angel:; I'm convinced he'll get plenty at Bayern if he's good enough, as at any other big club.
There have been links between Dortmund and Süle last summer but personally I'm sceptical that we were considering him seriously (we wanted to sign Toprak who didn't get clearance from Leverkusen but will join us next summer; negotiations with Eric Bailly were quite advanced, and when he decided against us and for you guys, we went for our fall-back option Bartra).
But even if we had been interested and he were willing to join (which I'm not sure about), I doubt that his chances for game time would be significantly better at BVB as compared to Bayern. All I know is that his pay cheque and title chances would be significantly lower. :)
 
schwalbe said:
What a load of BS.
Which player would have been 20m cheaper for Bayern than for the PL clubs? Also, it's called negotiation for a reason. Not Bayern's fault that the PL negotiation tactic is to "Blow them out of the water".
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Don't feed the troll. :)
 
Crossie said:
I don't think that at this age and stage of development, he is driven by money alone. In terms of game time, I'm confident we can peacefully agree to disagree :angel:; I'm convinced he'll get plenty at Bayern if he's good enough, as at any other big club.
There have been links between Dortmund and Süle last summer but personally I'm sceptical that we were considering him seriously (we wanted to sign Toprak who didn't get clearance from Leverkusen but will join us next summer; negotiations with Eric Bailly were quite advanced, and when he decided against us and for you guys, we went for our fall-back option Bartra).
But even if we had been interested and he were willing to join (which I'm not sure about), I doubt that his chances for game time would be significantly better at BVB as compared to Bayern. All I know is that his pay cheque and title chances would be significantly lower. :)
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Fair enough. I didn't realise Toprak to Dortmund was a done deal in the summer. In that case, you are probably right about not getting as much game time at Dortmund either.
 
Bit of a bump, but I really like this CB from what I've seen (not much, mind).

Any regular watchers who know how the rest of his season has been? Does he get much gametime when Boateng and Hummels are both fit? (Not sure how much Bayern utilises the 3atb)
 
He is quite massive isn't he? Looks like a body builder rather than a footballer.
 
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