I would have said Otamendi any other day but given the lack of experience amongst our CB's, I will have to go with Ramos. Someone with Ramos's experience can have a huge impact in a short span of time. Which is what we need if we are to mount a strong title challenge next season.
Nicolás Otamendi or Sergio Ramos
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We also have Rojo, remember him? We paid for him last year. We need to give McNair at least 20 games a season if we wnat him to develop. Otherwise, we might as well cancel the youth development if we won't be using them.
That said, I won't mind Ramos experience.
Ramos, mainly because his ability and technique in the ball lends itself better to partnering Smalling than Otamendi's skill set. Nothing against Otamendi at all, I think a big positive in his favour is he'd possibly be more hungry and motivated than Ramos.
i'll freely admit to not having seen him play much at all, but i seriously have a hard time believing he's eclipsed Ramos, which is the point. plus, as others have said, Ramos seems to fit LVG's remit far better in terms of style.
having said that, I will ultimately be happy with either of the two of them. i'd just prefer Ramos.
Otamendi is an animal in the air
With all the mistakes you dont want
Why do you use lower case to start sentences?
See, this is the problem as players are often evaluated on reputation rather than ability. That's not to say you aren't wrong, but making sweeping comments like that just makes me a bit uneasy.
From what I've seen of Otamendi he looks perfect for the Premier League and would dominate matches much like Vidic used to do in his prime, he's a superb defender who imo is better than Ramos (defensively). Having said that, Ramos is the better passer and as you say would fit LvG's style better. Both score goals at set pieces so i'd say that's pretty even. Ramos has more experience, Otamendi is younger.
It's tough to make a decision tbh.
Like Otamendi is a flawless CB? Watch the recently concluded Copa America.
lower case ftw, man. it's hip
Erm..
Your first statement is incredibly speculative. Ramos is a better player currently, but I don't think it's as clear cut as you think it is. Otamendi is a beast, I like him a lot, and moving to United at this stage of his career could bring his level up a gear.
Over the last two seasons, I definitely agree. In the 11/12 season Ramos was the teams best defender over the course of the entire season. He was better than Pepe in 12/13 too. However, since Ancelotti took over, Pepe has been the teams best defender and has definitely been better than Ramos over the last two seasons. Ramos' first few months under Ancelotti were particularly bad but he had a strong finish to the 13/14 season. He had a good start to the 14/15 season but was very up and down during the 2nd half of it. Pepe has maintained his form much better over the last two seasons than Ramos has (although he has still had lapses, just nowhere near as bad as Ramos').
Yep, that's almost exactly how I see it too from a stylistic and tactical point of view.
Otamendi appears to have a slight edge in terms of being a more gritty and committed 'stopper' type defender who plays within his means instead of venturing forward and risking positional lapses, so functionally he suits more pragmatic managers that like throw-back, steady defenders in a slightly rigid and deeper defensive line to match their counter-attacking offensive tactics. Which is what Benitez historically prioritized like you rightly pointed. Or even the likes of Simeone, Jose (pre-Madrid and now at Chelsea evidently), and other archetypically defensive coaches for that matter.
Ramos is more of a Dutch school, Guardiola, Van Gaal type of centerback who in terms of his defensive commitment has a propensity to be more of a gambler for lack of a better term (has shown steady improvement to be fair), but is really balanced and confident in both aspects of the game and naturally fits into teams that prioritize high levels of ball possession and a higher defensive line - bringing his superior ball skills, distribution abilities, recoverability, greater attacking flair, and athleticism to the fore.
In that sense, Ramos is an almost seamless fit for Van Gaal and United. As for Benitez at Madrid I honestly dunno. Over the course of his career, he has shown a distinct lack of ability to be more flexible in his defense-oriented methods. Will that change somewhat under Perez' strict directive ? That much remains to be seen I guess. Although, wrt Ramos, he has come up leaps as bounds as a defender and a leader, particularly under Mourinho who really improved his positional discipline. So him thriving under Benitez isn't out of question from a more casual Madrid matcher's perspective.
Essentially you're right, that is speculative as well but you know full well what kind of speculation I was referring to (wages, transfer fees, DDG p/ex). If people want to speculate how good they'll be in the next few years that's fine. Using nonsense rumours to try to justify one player over the other is just pointless & makes any debate futile.
Both actually
If there is nothing being considered, but simply who do you want, then it's definitely Sergio Ramos. Otamendi is still at least a level below him. But if you consider the likes of price, wages, the amount of time need to seal the deal and of course, his availability, suddenly things are not as clear cut as it seems.
Ramos = Losing De Gea for sure so I'd pick Otamendi. Without taking that into consideration, Ramos would be my choice, the superior CB out of the two.
Having the England, Germany and Spain captain in the same team would make us even more attractive to new players. Otamendi is great though, I think we'd do well with either unless Ramos = De Gea, if that were the case I'd take Otamendi.
Can't really comment on Otamendi. Ramos would be fantastic.
Why do people think that we can keep De Gea if we don't get Ramos? He won't be here this time next year anyway, 100%.
I don't necessarily agree with the bold part. Fergie had the likes of Bruce earlier and Vida towards the end who are both as old-school as they come but Fergie was far from a defensive coach. It all boils down to having a nice balance in the back four. Your don't want two CBs who cannot pass water but then you don't want two CBs who will be gung-ho and will take unnecessary risks. One of each type, obviously depending on the quality of the player in question, is the ideal scenario. Vida was a perfect foil for Rio and vice-versa.
Seeing that Smalling/Jones are more of the ball-playing types, Otamendi could be a good foil to both of them. Someone who is tough as nails and is primarily a defender before anything else. IMO he would suit our back line well if we intend on partnering him with either Jones or Smalling.
Ramos, proven at the highest level, won everything there is to win, massively experienced and got a side of nastiness about him that wont allow opposition players to phase him.
Plus it will allow Jones to shadow and learn from him and gain some experience.
Otamendi is more of a risk imo.
Plus it will allow Jones to shadow and learn from him and gain some experience.
Otamendi is more of a risk imo.
Can't really comment on Otamendi either, as I've only seen a few Youtube videos from him, but overall I would prefer Ramos. He is a cnut at times, but he is a real winner and has everything a top defender needs. I think he would slot in perfectly and we need someone, who is commanding at the back. Otamendi looked really promising and I wouldn't be disappointed if we actually sign him, but I don't think that he'll be that commanding personality right away, unlike Ramos.
Otamendi.
Things can change in a year, especially if we have a better season than Madrid.
Ramos. He's better and more experienced.
Well, unless he changes his fiance he's not staying.
Fergie was a totally different beast when compared with Van Gaal and Benitez, so what he did in terms of personnel flexibility shouldn't be conflated with either. One might even argue that his biggest strength when compared with other contemporary managers (apart from superior man management and motivation), was the ability to alter his approach with each passing season to accentuate the natural strengths of the players at his disposal and calibrate his tactics since he didn't staunchly ascribe to any particular school of tactics. To him it wouldn't matter if we signed Otamendi or Ramos, since he could incorporate either into his system, just like he transitioned from Keane to Carrick without any major hassles, or he might have signed Laazette this summer but Van Gaal isn't likely to. The likes of Louis or Benitez when compared with Fergie are more orthodox and detail oriented when it comes to players, and in terms of how they'll fit into their overall scheme.
To use an analogy from the other form of football, Fergie is like Bill Belichik who alters his defensive tendencies on a regular basis instead of having a fixed scheme, whereas Van Gaal is like Tony Dungy, who played Cover 2 week in and week out, and preached it religiously. One builds the team around the players at his disposal with the occasional signings to elevate the quality of the team, another rips out the previous method (if it's incompatible) to install his vision, and wants players that can fit into the scheme (apart from the odd outlier in terms of player with exceptional quality).
Wouldn't necessarily call Smalling a ball-playing central defender, atleast in terms of Van Gaal and the type of ball-playing central defenders he has employed in the past. Which just further highlights the need to have a center-back who is composed in possession even when pressed, and can intelligently and deliberately build from the back or recycle the ball - in essence someone who's a hybrid between a defensive midfielder and a central defender (someone like a De Boer at Ajax for example).
Louis can compromise a bit, maybe rejig his tactics if that kind of defender isn't available and the balance of the team as a whole if off - going by the presence of Vlaar and De Vrij and Martins Indi in Brazil. But given the choice and resources (both present in abudance at United), he will always seek to upgrade, evidenced by the reported chase of Hummels, and now the strong interest in Ramos. We need to realize that what makes sense to us in terms of team-building and potential signings is different from Van Gaal's historic approach and his preferred tactics.
LVG is not the kind of manager who spends just for the sake of it.
I voted Otamendi but I want both!
The idea that DDG staying is a such a good thing is short sighted.
I would rather we keep him a year than get shafted by Real. Absolutely.
But he will walk on a free next year. 100% and that is not good.
Hopefully we can use him as leverage for Ramos. Best possible outcome.
I would rather we keep him a year than get shafted by Real. Absolutely.
But he will walk on a free next year. 100% and that is not good.
Hopefully we can use him as leverage for Ramos. Best possible outcome.
He would be playing for his club team, like he did brilliantly last season for Valencia where I watched him a lot more often than you saw at an international tournament
Argentina are always a weird team at the best of times
Or maybe he didn't have the whole team putting in a collective defensive effort like valencua does and wasnt able to adapt when taken out of his comfort zone. Somethinh that would happen at United as well?
I agree to be honest. When Dortmund refused to sell Lewandowski to Bayern, was anyone impressed? All I see is that Bayern managed to get a world class striker "for free" and that's that.
It might be great to keep De Gea around another year because he's a top keeper. But in the end we'll get shafted nonetheless.
Valencia arent a defensive team. We'll have more discipline with Schneiderlin in the team than Valencia had
Remains to be seen. Fact is we've seen him having lapses of concentration when not surrounded by people to cover for him. Your only excuse being Argentina being a 'weird' team. We are hardly a settled unit defensively ourselves so let's not assume he'll be the same he was at valencia. I'm not playing him down and would be happy if we get him but a) he doesn't hold a candle in front of ramos in terms of achievement and ability and body of work and b) your portrait of him being this flawless cb who doesn't put a foot wrong is laughable. Typical flavour of the month hipster arguments.
Some people here overrating Ramos, great defender but certainly has his flaws. Don't think on current form there is much between Ramos and Otamendi from what I have seen personally that is. I also think Otamendi would suit the premier league really well due to his physical strength, especially in the air. We have been craving a bully in our defense for quite a while now and Otamendi delivers that. Having said that I wouldn't be upset if Ramos joined, a proven winner and leader who is excellent on the ball.
Yeah flavour of the month, I only watched him most weeks. Probably more than you watched United
His body of work last season was miles ahead of Ramos, thats what matters. I wouldnt pick him over Godin but if hes not available for a fee that matches his age, Otamendi is the reliable option no matter how much your pants are in a twist
On paper Ramos is the perfect fit. Experienced, comfortable on the ball, a leader, an impressively high profile signing etc. It makes total sense that we're targeting him.
Even with all that though, I can't shake the fact that I (and many others here) spent years saying he was one of the most overrated players around, that he was brainless and that he was a card machine. Even with all of the positive qualities on his side, those are still pretty big reservations...
Otamendi I've seen much less of but that also means I don't have that pre-existing negative opinion about him either.
Ramos may well be the better player but the idea of signing Otamendi sits a lot easier with me.
Even with all that though, I can't shake the fact that I (and many others here) spent years saying he was one of the most overrated players around, that he was brainless and that he was a card machine. Even with all of the positive qualities on his side, those are still pretty big reservations...
Otamendi I've seen much less of but that also means I don't have that pre-existing negative opinion about him either.
Ramos may well be the better player but the idea of signing Otamendi sits a lot easier with me.
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