NFL Thread

giorno said:
Because the NFL is run for the most part by idiots. Even Jon fecking Gruden could see Mahomes talent, but apparently NFL scouts and GMs who picked before KC are stupider than him. The bears traded up to #2 for Trubisky.
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Which has paid off nicely by winning the division. Ultimately, no one could've guessed Mahomes would be as good as he has been since most of his predecessors from the air raid/spread/run&shoot etc struggled in the pros.
 
Pretty much every quarterback in the nfl is a spread quarterback now. Drew brees was a spread pioneer at Purdue.

The only ones I think would be truly pro style in the traditional sense are eli manning and joe flacco.
 
Eboue said:
Pretty much every quarterback in the nfl is a spread quarterback now. Drew brees was a spread pioneer at Purdue.

The only ones I think would be truly pro style in the traditional sense are eli manning and joe flacco.
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Garoppolo
 
Eboue said:
Shanahan runs a spread or at least has a high amount of spread concepts. Remember he was RGIIIs offensive coordinator back when they went to the playoffs in washington.
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I thought the whole thing with him coming out of an FCS college was that he had played in a pro style offense? I might be misremembering though.
 
altodevil86 said:
I thought the whole thing with him coming out of an FCS college was that he had played in a pro style offense? I might be misremembering though.
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Well yeah but I was counting guys with extensive pro speed experience too. Brady played in a pro style offense at Michigan but set records in a spread with the Patriots
 
Pete Carroll has signed a new deal with the Seahawks. Delighted with this, have been a few times where he's made decisions that baffled me but we're 9-6 and in the playoffs despite being in a rebuild year, wouldn't want any other coach.
 
Eboue said:
Pretty much every quarterback in the nfl is a spread quarterback now.
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How are you defining “spread” here?

Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, Matt Stafford, Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Jared Goff, Mitch Trubisky, Josh Allen, and Kirk Cousins aren’t spread QBs.
 
Kazi said:
Why did someone as talented as Mahomes drop to #10 in the draft anyway, did he have any red flags in college?
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Classic mistake of scouting: lowering grades of prospects based on quality of competition. In this case, Big XII defenses. This also feeds into why Baker going #1 was a surprise.

It also happens in soccer. Doubts about a transfer among fans simply because the player comes from a less prestigious league without knowing anything about him. ‘Not Premier League proven’ and that sort of bullcorn.
 
Carolina Red said:
How are you defining “spread” here?

Matt Ryan, Philip Rivers, Ben Rothlisberger, Matt Stafford, Andrew Luck, Andy Dalton, Jared Goff, Joe Flacco, Mitch Trubisky, Josh Allen, and Kirk Cousins aren’t spread QBs.
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playing in a spread offense in either the nfl or college. spread being lots of shotgun and 3+ wide receiver sets as opposed to the old pro style offenses with a fullback and taking snaps under center.

Ryan - maybe a stretch
Rivers - played in a shotgun heavy, 3+ wr offense in the pros
Roethlisberger - played in a spread in the pros
Stafford - played in a spread in the pros
Luck - played in a spread in the pros
Dalton - played spread at TCU
Goff - played in the Air Raid at Cal
Flacco - already said he was an exception
Trubisky - played spread at UNC
Allen - I'll concede this one
Cousins - maybe a stretch but he played under OCs Shanahan and McVay
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Classic mistake of scouting: lowering grades of prospects based on quality of competition. In this case, Big XII defenses. This also feeds into why Baker going #1 was a surprise.

It also happens in soccer. Doubts about a transfer among fans simply because the player comes from a less prestigious league without knowing anything about him. ‘Not Premier League proven’ and that sort of bullcorn.
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Team needs play a role as well. Mahomes was 10th overall, but the 2nd QB drafted.
 
NFL Shotgun Frequency, 2016
Highest Rate of Shotgun Lowest Rate of Shotgun
1 SF 99% 28 DAL 51%
2 DET 84% 29 TB 50%
3 BUF 80% 30 ARI 49%
4 CAR 78% 31 DEN 43%
5 GB 76% 32 ATL 40%
NFL AVERAGE: 68%


NFL Shotgun Frequency, 2011
Highest Rate of Shotgun Lowest Rate of Shotgun
1 DET 68% 28 MIA 30%
2 BUF 58% 29 SF 28%
3 CAR 57% 30 OAK 25%
4 DEN 55% 31 HOU 19%
5 GB 52% 32 CHI 15%
NFL AVERAGE: 41%


NFL Shotgun Frequency, 2006
Highest Rate of Shotgun Lowest Rate of Shotgun
1 MIA 44% 28 OAK 6%
2 NE 34% 29 SEA 3%
3 GB 34% 30 CHI 1%
4 IND 34% 31 HOU 1%
5 PIT 33% 32 TB 0%
NFL AVERAGE: 19%


NFL Shotgun Frequency, 1996
Highest Rate of Shotgun Lowest Rate of Shotgun
1 NYJ 27% 18-30 13 of 30 teams did not take
a single snap from shotgun in 1996.
2 NO 26%
3 ARI 26%
4 MIA 25%
5 JAC 21%
NFL AVERAGE: 7%



before we get bogged down in individual players though, the nfl has gone from 7% shotgun to 68% shotgun in 20 years. the modern nfl has meshed spread concepts into the base offense of every single team. most college teams run some form of spread. an increasing amount of high schools run spread concepts and the end result is that most quarterbacks who are nfl level talents are influenced by the spread in some way and able to adapt parts of it into their offense.
 
Eboue said:
playing in a spread offense in either the nfl or college. spread being lots of shotgun and 3+ wide receiver sets as opposed to the old pro style offenses with a fullback and taking snaps under center.

Ryan - maybe a stretch
Rivers - played in a shotgun heavy, 3+ wr offense in the pros
Roetlisberger - played in a spread in the pros
Stafford - played in a spread in the pros
Luck - played in a spread in the pros
Dalton - played spread at TCU
Goff - played in the Air Raid at Cal
Flacco - already said he was an exception
Trubisky - played spread at UNC
Allen - I'll concede this one
Cousins - maybe a stretch but he played under OCs Shanahan and McVay
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Your definition of the spread isn’t quite right. Just because it’s gun and has 3+ WR, doesn’t make it an actual “spread” offense.
 
Eboue said:
thats the generally accepted definition i think but im willing to hear out what you think a better definition is
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First off, what Andy Reid does is based off the West Coast system that Walsh created.

A lot of Shotgun heavy offenses are misnamed “spread” offenses, but they aren’t actually using true “spread” concepts. The spread is a system that’s heavily reliant on the read option and on levels route concepts to open up defenses. What these guys are playing in are gun heavy “pro-style” offenses that use a lot of play action pass and a lot of vertical stretch routes to complement a hand off run game. Yes, there’s a lot of WR and it’s in the Shotgun, but it isn’t a spread system.

The actual “spread” offenses in the NFL are ones that have fully integrated the RPO and levels route running (Dallas, Philly, Houston) instead of the traditional hand off to play action and vertical passing concepts.
 
Carolina Red said:
First off, what Andy Reid does is based off the West Coast system that Walsh created.

A lot of Shotgun heavy offenses are misnamed “spread” offenses, but they aren’t actually using true “spread” concepts. The spread is a system that’s heavily reliant on the read option and on levels route concepts to open up defenses. What these guys are playing in are gun heavy “pro-style” offenses that use a lot of play action pass and a lot of vertical stretch routes to complement a hand off run game. Yes, there’s a lot of WR and it’s in the Shotgun, but it isn’t a spread system.

The actual “spread” offenses in the NFL are ones that have fully integrated the RPO and levels route running (Dallas, Philly, Houston) instead of the traditional hand off to play action and vertical passing concepts.
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Not sure what Andy Reid has to do with this?


And your second paragraph describes one particular subset offense in the spread category. But your definition excludes an Air Raid offense from being spread does it not? I recognize that there is no definitive answer but I think any definition that leaves the air raid out of a list of spread offenses is one quite a bit removed from the majority.
 
heres a couple definitions from around the web

Spread offenses typically place the quarterback in the shotgun formation, and "spread" the defense horizontally using three-, four-, and even five-receiver sets. Many spread offenses also employ a no-huddle approach. Some implementations of the spread also feature wide splits between the offensive linemen.

Spread offenses can emphasize the pass or the run, with the common attribute that they force the defense to cover the entire field from sideline to sideline. Many spread teams use the read option running play to put pressure on both sides of the defense. Similar to the run and shoot offense, passing-oriented spread offenses often leverage vertical (down field) passing routes to spread the defense vertically, which opens up multiple vertical seams for both the running and passing game.
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A term used rather broadly, the spread offense most commonly refers to a formation that employs three or more pass catchers to stretch the defense both horizontally and vertically. It is sometimes, but not always, a pass-heavy approach, and its most important characteristic is that it forces the defense to cover more of the field, as opposed to overpowering the opponent in small spaces as in a more traditional offense
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The spread is typically run out of a Shotgun formation with three, four or five receivers. The reasons for running the spread offense are different for each style of offense. Some teams, like Auburn with Gus Malzahn, ran the spread offense to run the ball inside the tackles where they gain a numbers advantage. Other teams, like the Indianapolis Colts with Peyton Manning, ran the spread to get more receivers involved in the passing game. Still, more teams will run a modified Wing-T out of the Shotgun spread, similar to how Florida ran their offense with Urban Meyer and Tim Tebow.
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@Eboue, I know what the definitions are. I literally have spent my whole career coaching blocking the spread system or defending it.

Key thing from your 2nd definition... “A term used rather broadly, the spread offense...”

That’s the point I’m making. People have slapped “spread offense” onto pretty much anything that puts WR all over the field.
 
Carolina Red said:
@Eboue, I know what the definitions are. I literally have spent my whole career coaching blocking the spread system or defending it.

Key thing from your 2nd definition... “A term used rather broadly, the spread offense...”

That’s the point I’m making. People have slapped “spread offense” onto pretty much anything that puts WR all over the field.
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ok but are you saying air raid is not spread?
 
in my opinion there are a couple different types of spread.

air raid: mike leach's teams, early oklahoma under bob stoops, texas tech under kingsbury, kevin sumlin, sonny dykes etc
spread option: rich rodriguez, randy walker, urban meyer, chip kelly, gus malzahn, vince young's texas teams
hybrid: dana holgerson, mike gundy, art briles


and the last one would be the teams that recruit elite players whose coaches arent philosophically committed to the spread but have embraced it in parts in recent years: alabama, clemson, notre dame
 
Eboue said:
well lets hear your thoughts on both
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Original - no. It is just a verticals concepts system that doesn’t really use horizontal space well.

Now - yes, it has evolved to use spread concepts and you can actually see its evolution in the career of Mike Leach.
 
Eboue said:
in my opinion there are a couple different types of spread.

air raid: mike leach's teams, early oklahoma under bob stoops, texas tech under kingsbury, kevin sumlin, sonny dykes etc
spread option: rich rodriguez, randy walker, urban meyer, chip kelly, gus malzahn, vince young's texas teams
hybrid: dana holgerson, mike gundy, art briles


and the last one would be the teams that recruit elite players whose coaches arent philosophically committed to the spread but have embraced it in parts in recent years: alabama, clemson, notre dame
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Now, which of those do we actually see in the NFL?
 
Carolina Red said:
Now, which of those do we actually see in the NFL?
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as full offenses? none really. but spread option concepts are utilized by most teams. obviously the ravens use them more than the patriots but they are there. pretty much every team uses mesh concepts now. brady and manning each used air raid concepts heavily for several years. the patriots even ran no huddle for a while there. belichick famously would consult with chip kelly back when he was an assistant at a small school.

now as for the last group, i think thats more of what we see in the nfl. lane kiffin made the change to spread at alabama and was previously an nfl coach. i think you come up with few (or none) teams that dont utilize spread concepts in some form in 2018.

and even though the nfl doesnt use it as much as the college game, most every quarterback coming through these days has a decent level of familiarity.

limiting it to the first 4 rounds and since 2013, here are the quarterbacks drafted who played in a spread in college:

  • geno smith
  • tyler wilson
  • landry jones
  • johnny manziell
  • derek carr
  • marcus marriota
  • bryce petty
  • jared goff
  • paxton lynch
  • dak prescott
  • cardale jones
  • mitch trubisky
  • patrick mahomes
  • deshaun watson
  • deshone kizer
  • davis webb
  • baker mayfield
  • sam darnold
  • lamar jackson
  • mason rudolph


ultimately i think the idea that there are spread quarterbacks and non-spread quarterbacks is no longer accurate as the sport blends the concepts on all levels
 
Rado_N said:
Oh look the Broncos lost. Shock.
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Broncos players checked out in that game, I'd be pretty happy if I were you cos it will have been the final nail in VJ's coffin. Personally I'm annoyed cos it makes it pretty certain the Cardinals will get Nick Bosa in the draft, hoped the Raiders would suck enough to steal him.

Loved the smart play from Dwayne Harris, Broncos touched their punt on Oakland's 1 yard line so he picked it up and ran it back 99 yards. Effectively a free return since even if he fumbled or got tackled in his own endzone, Raiders would have the ball at the 1 anyway.
 
Carolina Red said:
@Eboue, I know what the definitions are. I literally have spent my whole career coaching blocking the spread system or defending it.

Key thing from your 2nd definition... “A term used rather broadly, the spread offense...”

That’s the point I’m making. People have slapped “spread offense” onto pretty much anything that puts WR all over the field.
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The context here is that the rise of players like Mahomes is being seen as a potential trend where NFL teams start to actively look for prolific college passers who come out of Air Raid, Fun & Gun, Run & Shoot, Vertical, and various spread centric offenses, since that is where the NFL is increasingly headed (even more so than in the past), which is being reinforced at the college level with the likes of USC hiring Kingsbury and FSU hiring Briles; even Mack Brown is going full on Air Raid at UNC next year after hiring Phil Longo.
 
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Hephaestus said:
Broncos players checked out in that game, I'd be pretty happy if I were you cos it will have been the final nail in VJ's coffin. Personally I'm annoyed cos it makes it pretty certain the Cardinals will get Nick Bosa in the draft, hoped the Raiders would suck enough to steal him.

Loved the smart play from Dwayne Harris, Broncos touched their punt on Oakland's 1 yard line so he picked it up and ran it back 99 yards. Effectively a free return since even if he fumbled or got tackled in his own endzone, Raiders would have the ball at the 1 anyway.
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Raoul said:
At this point after they are out of the playoffs losing to the Raiders may be the final nail in Joseph's coffin, so not entirely a bad thing.
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VJ's coffin was already well shut imo but I take the point.

Elway and Ellis need to get the next appointment right or the fans will be turning on them big time. Joseph was never the right appointment from the word go and giving him a second year was a ridiculous decision.

There's been a story out recently that Elway wanted to bring Mike Shanahan back last off-season and that Cousins had agreed to join for a cut price if it happened but Ellis said no. Feels like an attempted nostalgia appointment but it would have surely been better than what we've seen this year.

We need a good offensive mind in charge.
 
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Rado_N said:
We need a good offensive mind in charge.
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If I didn’t want to keep him at OU, I’d want Lincoln Riley.

But he’s got the #1 QB and two 5* WRs coming in, so he’s playing with house money with the Oklahoma gig. Plus there seems to be a vague notion he’ll hold still until he can take over the Dallas Cowboys. I don’t think he’ll end up at the Browns.
 
Organic Potatoes said:
If I didn’t want to keep him at OU, I’d want Lincoln Riley.

But he’s got the #1 QB and two 5* WRs coming in, so he’s playing with house money with the Oklahoma gig. Plus there seems to be a vague notion he’ll hold still until he can take over the Dallas Cowboys. I don’t think he’ll end up at the Browns.
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I don't know anything about the college game or what coaches are good sadly, but I have read a few names recently as being ones the Broncos 'should' consider, including Matt Campbell, Chris Peterson and David Shaw. No clue how good/likely they are.
 
Rado_N said:
I don't know anything about the college game or what coaches are good sadly, but I have read a few names recently as being ones the Broncos 'should' consider, including Matt Campbell, Chris Peterson and David Shaw. No clue how good/likely they are.
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I hear Elway is interseted in Harbaugh.
 
Rado_N said:
I don't know anything about the college game or what coaches are good sadly, but I have read a few names recently as being ones the Broncos 'should' consider, including Matt Campbell, Chris Peterson and David Shaw. No clue how good/likely they are.
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Campbell is a name on the rise. Would’ve gotten the Ohio State job if Urban hadn’t passed the torch to an assistant. He will be at an elite program or in the NFL soon.

Peterson is a sharp offensive mind, even though he didn’t have a great season at Washington.
 
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