NFL Thread

Eboue said:
:lol: classic

the argument wasnt that barkley sucks but instead that any team picking in the top 5 had bigger needs than running back, which ive clearly been proved right on
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Ok good, so he doesn't suck. Glad we've made a bit of progress then.
 
Eboue said:
one day to go, cards on the table.

josh allen will be a bust
saquon barkley will be decent but anyone who takes him in the top 5 will regret it and a running back drafted after him with have more approximate value in his career
best quarterbacks will be rosen darnold and mayfield
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no surprise raoul is just responding to what he wants instead of what people actually said
 
barkley is currently 6th in DVOA among running backs, which is actually pretty good. lets check in on some other rookie running backs though:

Kerryon Johnson - 2nd round pick - 1st in DVOA
Royce Freeman - 3rd - 11th
Sony Michel - 1st - 24th
Phillip Lindsey - UDFA - 2nd
 
Barkley is a lot more than just decent imo.

Drafting a RB in the top 5 is justified for me but only if you don’t have other glaring needs, which the Giants obviously have at QB. However I don’t think they’d be off much better with Darnold, Allen or Rosen under center.
 
RobinLFC said:
Barkley is a lot more than just decent imo.

Drafting a RB in the top 5 is justified for me but only if you don’t have other glaring needs, which the Giants obviously have at QB. However I don’t think they’d be off much better with Darnold, Allen or Rosen under center.
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Absolutely. He has better YPC than Gurley, Zeke, and Hunt. Unfortunately, playing for a horrible team isn't doing him any favors in terms of getting recoginized.
 
Raoul said:
As opposed to what ?
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I'm actually more on your side to be fair. I think Barkley is terrific, I just don't think yardage total is really that reflective. The Giants offensive line is garbage, as is the QB, heavily impacting his stats.
 
RobinLFC said:
Barkley is a lot more than just decent imo.

Drafting a RB in the top 5 is justified for me but only if you don’t have other glaring needs, which the Giants obviously have at QB. However I don’t think they’d be off much better with Darnold, Allen or Rosen under center.
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hes averaging 2.9 yards per carry today. 3.1 last week. 3.2 against carolina. 2.5 against dallas. you are right that he has been better than decent but here are some things to consider:

  • he has great speed and can create big plays
  • he doesnt have great vision and gets stopped for short gains / losses more than elite running backs usually do
  • his receiving stats are inflated by eli manning being terrible and dumping it off to barkley too many times per game
  • other rookie running backs have been similar to him so far if not better (johnson, lindsey, freeman, etc)
  • he has third highest amount of guaranteed money for a running back in NFL history trailing only Peterson (signed after his MVP season) and Gurley (signed this offseason after an mvp caliber season)
  • the giants have tons of other needs
  • there were 5 quarterbacks drafted in the first round, will several being drafted after teams traded lots of value to move up
  • gettleman didnt even take any calls from other teams desperate to move up
 
altodevil86 said:
I'm actually more on your side to be fair. I think Barkley is terrific, I just don't think yardage total is really that reflective. The Giants offensive line is garbage, as is the QB, heavily impacting his stats.
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Ahh ok. I wasn't sure what you meant.

Actually, I wasn't looking at just yardage, but more so his overall versatility. He's been heavily utilized as a receiver out of the backfield to reduce the pressure on Manning. Once the Giants get their act together on offense, his value will continue to climb.
 
Fitzmagic!!

Need the 2 point conversion...

Never in doubt
 
Fitzmagic should be a starter somewhere.
 
Eboue said:
lets all take a moment to recall how right i was about not taking barkley second
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Barkley was the right pick. Once in a generation talent. You can drafta QB next year or get someone in FA. No QB would survive behind that O line anyways.
 
and if the offensive line is so bad, why not draft an offensive lineman? the colts got 3 second round picks to move back 3 spots and take an offensive lineman. the colts then moved back again in the second round. so you could have:

Saquon Barkley


or


Any offensive lineman in the draft
3 second round picks
1 5th round pick




that seems like a smarter way to address the needs of a team that is now 4-20 in the past two years
 
They tried to fix the O line in FA, I mean Solder had been good for the Pats, I thought they overpaid but I didnt think anyone expected him to be this bad.
 
I'm only agreeing that Barkley is fantastic. Taking a RB in the first three rounds makes no sense in the NFL. There has been so many all-pro running backs that were low picks, or even undrafted, throughout the years.
 
freeurmind said:
They tried to fix the O line in FA, I mean Solder had been good for the Pats, I thought they overpaid but I didnt think anyone expected him to be this bad.
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thats fair, but i dont think solder is the only issue. i mean they started the year with ereck flowers. maybe mcglinchey would have helped.
 
It's pretty clear Eboobhead was right, drafting a RB that high with the other issues the Giants have was definitely a feck up, no matter how good he may be.
 
Eboue said:
thats fair, but i dont think solder is the only issue. i mean they started the year with ereck flowers. maybe mcglinchey would have helped.
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Before the season started I would have agreed with you, I'd have much rather seen them take a lineman or a DB high in the draft, Denzel Ward would have made sense. But now having seen Barkley play, I think they made the right decision. Plus we're going to be at the top of the draft next year again, so if we can sort out the o line and get a semi competent QB, we should be able to compete. Will have some cap space too after cutting Eli.
 
In the end the point is that even the best Rb's hardly ever transform a bad franchise . Just look at Zeke at Cowboys for another similar example
 
freeurmind said:
Before the season started I would have agreed with you, I'd have much rather seen them take a lineman or a DB high in the draft, Denzel Ward would have made sense. But now having seen Barkley play, I think they made the right decision. Plus we're going to be at the top of the draft next year again, so if we can sort out the o line and get a semi competent QB, we should be able to compete. Will have some cap space too after cutting Eli.
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but you could have done all of those things and had a promising quarterback now. or a top 10 lineman and 3 extra 2nds and 1 extra 5th now. you could have taken ronald jones, kerryon johnson, derrius guice, royce freeman with one of those seconds. or ito smith, jordan wilkins, or phillip lindsey with one of the 5ths.
 
Well at least they'll get another early pick next year to rectify it.
 
freeurmind said:
Is this sarcasm? The Cowboys fell apart last year after Zeke got suspended.
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elliot averaged 4.1 yards per carry last year

in the games without him, here is what alfred morris / rod smith did:

  • 14 att, 67 yrd, 4.8 ypc
  • 25 att, 102 yrd, 4.1 ypc
  • 18 att, 77 yrd, 4.3 ypc
  • 37 att, 154 yrd, 4.2 ypc
  • 25 att, 109 yrd, 4.4 ypc
  • 23 att, 74 yrd, 3.2 ypc


your memory doesnt align with what actually happened
 
in fact, you can even look at last year's stats for the whole season and see this:

morris 4.8 ypc
smith 4.2 ypc
elliot 4.1 ypc



oh well. its not like the guy chosen immediately after him was 1st team all pro or anything.
 
Eboue said:
elliot averaged 4.1 yards per carry last year

in the games without him, here is what alfred morris / rod smith did:

  • 14 att, 67 yrd, 4.8 ypc
  • 25 att, 102 yrd, 4.1 ypc
  • 18 att, 77 yrd, 4.3 ypc
  • 37 att, 154 yrd, 4.2 ypc
  • 25 att, 109 yrd, 4.4 ypc
  • 23 att, 74 yrd, 3.2 ypc


your memory doesnt align with what actually happened
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So let me understand what we're saying here, Alfred Morris is as good as Zeke Elliott? Orleans Darkwa had better ypc than Leveon Bell last season, put that man in the Hall of Fame.
 
Aaron Jones is completely dominating and McCarthy still gives Montgomery carries. This is beyond stupid.
 
freeurmind said:
Is this sarcasm? The Cowboys fell apart last year after Zeke got suspended.
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Injuries to key players and a QB who couldn't throw are the reason the Cowboys' season fell apart.
 
freeurmind said:
So let me understand what we're saying here, Alfred Morris is as good as Zeke Elliott? Orleans Darkwa had better ypc than Leveon Bell last season, put that man in the Hall of Fame.
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Seems to me he's saying Zeke's injury isn't the reason the Cowboys' season fell apart.
 
Jaire Alexander looks more special with every game.
 
freeurmind said:
So let me understand what we're saying here, Alfred Morris is as good as Zeke Elliott? Orleans Darkwa had better ypc than Leveon Bell last season, put that man in the Hall of Fame.
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you said the cowboys collapsed without him. i just pointed out that is wrong. my comparison makes more sense because they played in the same offense behind the same offensive line. not so with darkwa and bell.


but really, the larger point that i have been making all along is that running backs are the most interchangeable position (which is why its easier for rookies to contribute at running back than any other position) and that talent evaluators cannot consistently determine which running back will be better.

  • phillip lindsey was undrafted
  • matt breida was undrafted
  • dion lewis was a 5th round pick
  • david johnson was a 3rd round pick
  • tarik cohen was a 4th round pick
  • kareem hunt was a 3rd round pick
  • alvin kamara was a 3rd round pick
  • james conner was a 3rd round pick
  • jordan howard was a 5th round pick


meanwhile

  • tj yeldon was a 2nd round pick
  • ameer abdullah was a 2nd round pick
  • bishop sankey was a 2nd round pick
  • montee ball was a 2nd round pick
  • eddie lacy was a 2nd round pick
  • christine michael was a 2nd round pick
  • trent richardson, doug martin and david wilson all went in the first round in the same draft

the best running back drafted in 2008 was matt forte: he was the 6th back picked that year (shoutout to justin forsett, picked 25th, ranked 7th)
the best running back drafted in 2009 was lesean mccoy: he was the 4th back picked that year
the best running back drafted in 2010 was ryan matthews: he was the 2nd back picked that year (3rd best is james starks, picked 13th)
the best running back drafted in 2011 was demarco murray: he was the 6th back picked that year
the best running back drafted in 2012 was lamar miller: he was the 8th back picked that year
the best running back drafted in 2013 was leveon bell: he was the 2nd back picked that year
the best running back drafted in 2014 was devonta freeman: he was the 8th back picked that year
the best running back drafted in 2015 was todd gurley: he was the 1st back picked that year (2nd best is david johnson, picked 7th)



thats 8 years and only once was the back picked 1st actually the best. you can go back even further and see a time where you could have a reasonable chance of picking the best running back. its just that the game has moved on. rule changes benefit passing more than ever. teams use running back committees more than ever. its just not a good use of resources to use a top pick on a running back. even if you think you can evaluate which is best, history says you cant

2007: 1st
2006: 6th
2005: 6th
2004: 1st
2003: 1st
2002: 4th
2001: 1st
2000: 1st
1999: 1st
1998: 2nd
1997: 3rd
1996: 3rd
1995: 10th
1994: 1st
1993: 2nd
1992: 10th
1991: 6th
 
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