NFL Thread 2014-2015

Reality is that if he can not win the starting job at Ohio state then he can not have an nfl career. All any nfl team has on him is 3 games of film. Some of the analysis of him I watched yesterday suggested his Accurracy was actually not that good and the style of offense Ohio State plays doesn't translate well into the NFL for QB's.

Money wise at least an NFL career perspective coming out this year might have been smart. Best scenario is he gets drafted by a team with an aging started and he gets 3 or 4 seasons yet to develop. No team was going to draft him to be their immediate starting QB
 
Even if Jones was playing well it's a highly risky projection for the NFL. His OL gave him a clean pocket with just 4 sacks allowed in 3 games, very few hits or hurries, Elliot rushed for almost 700 yards in the 3 starts so he just had to hand the ball over to him or play action fake, plus the defense with Lee and Bennett and Bosa was playing lights out and the ST gave him awesome field positions.

We just don't know how he'll react to the shellacking he'll receive in the NFL, how well he reads coverage and picks up blitzes, how can he operate from the pocket when the running game dries up and so forth. People were just being kneejerk comparing him to Big Ben or a first round pick purely because of the physical tools but we just don't know how well he processes information which really makes or breaks pro QBs in the long run.
 
So does Green Bay stand a chance or will a hobbled Rodgers just be smashed by the Seattle defense? Indy or NE? Does Luck make the next step on the road to greatness or do Belichek and Brady get another chance to win another Superb Owl trophy?

Is the title Seattle's to lose? Can Green Bay, Indy or NE beat them or will they have to beat themselves not win a 2nd straight?

I lean towards this being Seattle's title to lose at this point, but of course nothing is guaranteed.
 
Tampa Bay Bucs, with the #1 pick in the 2015 Draft. Who do they go for?

Jameis Winston is he really a #1 Overall pick type player? Marcus Mariota, played in an explosive offense, didn't throw a lot of picks, mobile? Try to trade it and get a few extra picks, if so is there anyone who would be willing to move to the top spot?

I think they go with Mariota.
 
Apparently the Bucs think that Winston shouldn't stay in Florida, so Mariotta or Petty.
 
Reading a mock draft website I came across this prediction for the 81st draft pick

billsb_logo.gif
Buffalo Bills: Anthony Harris, S, Virginia
Virginia_logo.gif

The Bills had Da'Norris Searcy step in admirably as a replacement for the New Orleans-bound Jairus Byrd, but Searcy Lannister is now a free agent as well.


http://walterfootball.com/draft2015.php
 
I'm just talking about the QB pick, i don't understand much the draft mechanism, I know that Winston or Mariotta are first day picks and that's it.

On a different subject, i don't understand much the Broncos, they have a great defensive roster but they seem to prioritize an offensive HC with Kubiak and Gase.
The fact that Kubiak is friend with Elway or that Manning is in love with Gase shouldn't be a parameter.
 
Winston should be #1 easily, if we're taking strictly on field performances into consideration. Infact he's probably the best pro ready QB prospect in probably the last 10 odd years bar Luck. He's better than Bradford, Newton, Stafford and Ryan.

As with almost everything when evaluating a prospect there are layers to it. There's this crazed social media fueled perception of him being a bad apple and as a society we're more than willing to deify people before readily crucifying them but really if you look at the rap sheet :

1. Sexual assault allegation(s) : Now this is a very sensitive subject but he's been cleared twice.
2. BB gun incident : He was 19 then. Every college kid does stupid things but the thing is the actions of normal kids aren't surgically dissected which is a bit unfair to Winston.
3. Crab legs/ soda in a ketchup cup : Minor incidents. Doubt a pro team would take that seriously.
4. Shouting profanities : Very misguided, especially in the wake of the sexual assault case has to be said.

Apart from the assault charges (of which he's been acquitted unless the accuser pursues a civil lawsuit), it's not overly disturbing. People like Randy Moss (dismissed twice in college, served jail time for battery) or Ray Lewis (accused of murder) faced much grievous allegations but cleared their acts and had Hall of Fame worthy careers. On the field Winston's waaaay better than Mariota who's a very good prospect in his own right, but a lot of his productivity is inflated by Oregon's system. Look at the Eagles with Kelly and Foles putting up all-pro level stats last season. Winston makes much better anticipatory throws vs Mariota whose receivers are mostly wide open on go routes. Winston has experience in the pro system, under center, dropbacks and has total command of the huddle vs Mariota who operates from shotgun and no huddle signals. Winston makes much better pre-snap reads and diagnoses plays vs Mariota who runs 50 % play actions or designed plays called from Frost and so forth.

As for the interceptions, Manning threw 23 in his junior and senior seasons at Tennessee, Brees averages almost 15 per season, Favre threw 0.66 int per TD, Luck threw 18 in his rookie NFL season. Winston lost Benjamin and Shaw and Freeman to the draft and most of receivers are RS freshers. Dude didn't have a running game until Cook broke out. Mariota threw just 3 picks, but Daron Smith threw just 7 in his senior season in the same system and went undrafted, Alex Smith threw just 4 in his final season at Utah and is just about average as an NFl starter.

Mariota is such a nice kid and might be a really good player in the future but the best thing for him would be to fall in the draft so than Kelly can trade up for him now that he has full power over the draft. Not a lot of OCs can utilize his skillset and he might end up getting ruined by either being thrown into the fire too early or having a conservative HC. Winston is more plug and play once he irons out his elongated delivery and gets a good hang of the playbook. The best thing for him would be working under a proper father figure like Lovie Smith who can really bring him along and rid some of the immaturity. People can really change and surprise you if you put a plan into place - just look at Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant.
 
Winston should be #1 easily, if we're taking strictly on field performances into consideration. Infact he's probably the best pro ready QB prospect in probably the last 10 odd years bar Luck. He's better than Bradford, Newton, Stafford and Ryan.

As with almost everything when evaluating a prospect there are layers to it. There's this crazed social media fueled perception of him being a bad apple and as a society we're more than willing to deify people before readily crucifying them but really if you look at the rap sheet :

1. Sexual assault allegation(s) : Now this is a very sensitive subject but he's been cleared twice.
2. BB gun incident : He was 19 then. Every college kid does stupid things but the thing is the actions of normal kids aren't surgically dissected which is a bit unfair to Winston.
3. Crab legs/ soda in a ketchup cup : Minor incidents. Doubt a pro team would take that seriously.
4. Shouting profanities : Very misguided, especially in the wake of the sexual assault case has to be said.

Apart from the assault charges (of which he's been acquitted unless the accuser pursues a civil lawsuit), it's not overly disturbing. People like Randy Moss (dismissed twice in college, served jail time for battery) or Ray Lewis (accused of murder) faced much grievous allegations but cleared their acts and had Hall of Fame worthy careers. On the field Winston's waaaay better than Mariota who's a very good prospect in his own right, but a lot of his productivity is inflated by Oregon's system. Look at the Eagles with Kelly and Foles putting up all-pro level stats last season. Winston makes much better anticipatory throws vs Mariota whose receivers are mostly wide open on go routes. Winston has experience in the pro system, under center, dropbacks and has total command of the huddle vs Mariota who operates from shotgun and no huddle signals. Winston makes much better pre-snap reads and diagnoses plays vs Mariota who runs 50 % play actions or designed plays called from Frost and so forth.

As for the interceptions, Manning threw 23 in his junior and senior seasons at Tennessee, Brees averages almost 15 per season, Favre threw 0.66 int per TD, Luck threw 18 in his rookie NFL season. Winston lost Benjamin and Shaw and Freeman to the draft and most of receivers are RS freshers. Dude didn't have a running game until Cook broke out. Mariota threw just 3 picks, but Daron Smith threw just 7 in his senior season in the same system and went undrafted, Alex Smith threw just 4 in his final season at Utah and is just about average as an NFl starter.

Mariota is such a nice kid and might be a really good player in the future but the best thing for him would be to fall in the draft so than Kelly can trade up for him now that he has full power over the draft. Not a lot of OCs can utilize his skillset and he might end up getting ruined by either being thrown into the fire too early or having a conservative HC. Winston is more plug and play once he irons out his elongated delivery and gets a good hang of the playbook. The best thing for him would be working under a proper father figure like Lovie Smith who can really bring him along and rid some of the immaturity. People can really change and surprise you if you put a plan into place - just look at Brandon Marshall or Dez Bryant.

All of this would be great if you said it last year. Off field stuff aside, he's not been impressive at all this year. I think he's more likely to drop out of the top ten than go first.
 
All of this would be great if you said it last year. Off field stuff aside, he's not been impressive at all this year. I think he's more likely to drop out of the top ten than go first.

Wouldn't necessarily say he's not been impressive in 2014 given what he's had to work with but fair enough. Something we should consider is that he's faced a ton of adversities in 2014, a lot of which were self inflicted has to be said but also if you at the look at the numbers for the pass protection by his OL it fell off the radar his season. Erving struggled at LT throughout before being later plugged at center, Hart at RT was undisciplined and conceded so many facemask or false-start penalties, their starting center this season was a RS freshman after Stork went to NE, his safety blanket Benjamin entered the draft, last season they rushed for 200 yards on average vs 138 in 2014, and the defense took a step back as a unit without Jernigan, Joyner, Telvin Smith, allowing 396 total yards per game vs 280 in 2013.

All these things will inevitably hurt a QB and that added to the intense media pressure would crumble just about anyone, especially a 20 year old. Despite all of that he led FSU to 5 4th quarter comebacks wins out of 12 games, 4 of them with a margin of <7 points. Now some of them were holes he dug because of turnovers but there's only so much a QB can do if the freshmen receivers - Rudolph or Lane don't complete the routes and keep dropping catchable balls.

In the biggest games - against Notre Dame he was 15 of 16 for 181 yards in the second half after a 7 point halftime deficit.. in the ACC Championship Game he was 21 of 30 for 300+ yards with a QBR of 94. Even against Oregon in the Rose Bowl he was really good in the first half (13-18 pts) before Cook fumbled twice in the 3rd quarter and the team just quit on the game.

Obviously it's an inexact science, the draft is 3 months away, last year Bridgewater was almost a consensus 1 or atleast Top 3 pick in Jan, so it's hard to predict but if Winston interviews well and can convince Tampa that the off-field stuff was blown out of proportion or he'll clean the act up, there's no reason to think why he won't go #1. Lots of QBs have weaker last seasons, Dan Marino fell because he threw 23 ints and 17 TDs in his last season at Pitt and rumors of substance abuse.

If Tampa has any sense they should take a QB. It's either Mariota who's impeccable off the field but a major project on it with accuracy, touch, durability concerns. The team just went 2-14 so obviously they need immediate help which wouldn't suit Marcus because he needs to sit for atleast a season and learn a pro system after coming out of a spread. Meanwhile Smith and the GM would get fired in 2016 after another putrid season. Or they can take Winston provided he interviews well and he can start after the bye-week no problem. Infact most sites and draftniks have Winston going #1 at the mo.

Kiper has him there : http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/15/7552305/nfl-mock-draft-2015-jaemis-winston
McShay has him #2 but thinks he's a better pro prospect than Mariota : http://espn.go.com/blog/tampa-bay-b...cshay-winston-is-better-prospect-than-mariota
Miller has him top of the big board.
Daniel Jeremiah has him going #1 : http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ck-draft-10-proready-jameis-winston-goes-no-1
Charlie Campbell (who has close ties to Tampa) has him going #1 overall.
Gil Arcia (who also has close ties to Tampa) says they'll select him #1 overall. Might be a smokescreen though TBF.
A lot of ex pros (Dilfer, McNabb) have Winston going #1 overall and Mariota sliding.

That said, maybe Tampa don't take him. Or maybe he'll bust in the pros. But honestly, I think he would be a draft day steal for some team if he does slide out of the Top 10.
 
Problem with taking a QB #1 overall in the draft is the huge amount of expectations that then fall on the young man. You have to be as sure as you can be (an it is never a certainty) that the player will turn out to be worth it. If anyone wants to move up to #1 in the draft Tampa will be awfully tempted to listen.

The other thing about most mock draft websites right now is that they will have many updates between now and the draft, most of their info now is just based on the draft order and player ratings. As seen in the past, players move up and down in mock drafts quite a bit.
 
Last edited:
Wouldn't necessarily say he's not been impressive in 2014 given what he's had to work with but fair enough. Something we should consider is that he's faced a ton of adversities in 2014, a lot of which were self inflicted has to be said but also if you at the look at the numbers for the pass protection by his OL it fell off the radar his season. Erving struggled at LT throughout before being later plugged at center, Hart at RT was undisciplined and conceded so many facemask or false-start penalties, their starting center this season was a RS freshman after Stork went to NE, his safety blanket Benjamin entered the draft, last season they rushed for 200 yards on average vs 138 in 2014, and the defense took a step back as a unit without Jernigan, Joyner, Telvin Smith, allowing 396 total yards per game vs 280 in 2013.

All these things will inevitably hurt a QB and that added to the intense media pressure would crumble just about anyone, especially a 20 year old. Despite all of that he led FSU to 5 4th quarter comebacks wins out of 12 games, 4 of them with a margin of <7 points. Now some of them were holes he dug because of turnovers but there's only so much a QB can do if the freshmen receivers - Rudolph or Lane don't complete the routes and keep dropping catchable balls.

In the biggest games - against Notre Dame he was 15 of 16 for 181 yards in the second half after a 7 point halftime deficit.. in the ACC Championship Game he was 21 of 30 for 300+ yards with a QBR of 94. Even against Oregon in the Rose Bowl he was really good in the first half (13-18 pts) before Cook fumbled twice in the 3rd quarter and the team just quit on the game.

Obviously it's an inexact science, the draft is 3 months away, last year Bridgewater was almost a consensus 1 or atleast Top 3 pick in Jan, so it's hard to predict but if Winston interviews well and can convince Tampa that the off-field stuff was blown out of proportion or he'll clean the act up, there's no reason to think why he won't go #1. Lots of QBs have weaker last seasons, Dan Marino fell because he threw 23 ints and 17 TDs in his last season at Pitt and rumors of substance abuse.

If Tampa has any sense they should take a QB. It's either Mariota who's impeccable off the field but a major project on it with accuracy, touch, durability concerns. The team just went 2-14 so obviously they need immediate help which wouldn't suit Marcus because he needs to sit for atleast a season and learn a pro system after coming out of a spread. Meanwhile Smith and the GM would get fired in 2016 after another putrid season. Or they can take Winston provided he interviews well and he can start after the bye-week no problem. Infact most sites and draftniks have Winston going #1 at the mo.

Kiper has him there : http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2015/1/15/7552305/nfl-mock-draft-2015-jaemis-winston
McShay has him #2 but thinks he's a better pro prospect than Mariota : http://espn.go.com/blog/tampa-bay-b...cshay-winston-is-better-prospect-than-mariota
Miller has him top of the big board.
Daniel Jeremiah has him going #1 : http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...ck-draft-10-proready-jameis-winston-goes-no-1
Charlie Campbell (who has close ties to Tampa) has him going #1 overall.
Gil Arcia (who also has close ties to Tampa) says they'll select him #1 overall. Might be a smokescreen though TBF.
A lot of ex pros (Dilfer, McNabb) have Winston going #1 overall and Mariota sliding.

That said, maybe Tampa don't take him. Or maybe he'll bust in the pros. But honestly, I think he would be a draft day steal for some team if he does slide out of the Top 10.

Cook basically replaced Freeman's production exactly. 170-1008 v. 173-1016. Karlos Williams didn't do as well but the difference is negligible. Rashad Greene was 2nd team All America, O'Leary was key on third downs. His weapons got slightly worse than the year before but his production fell off a cliff.

Winston threw the ball 83 more times in one less game and still managed less yards than the year before. Look at his performances against top defenses:

Florida (5th) - 12/24 125 yards 4 interceptions 1 fumble
Virginia (10th) - 22/35 261 yards 2 interceptions
Louisville (6th) - 25/48 401 yards 3 interceptions
Oregon (14th) - 29/45 348 yards 1 interception 2 fumbles

That is straight up bad.


As for Mariotta, I don't share any of your concerns. His completion percentage is actually higher than Winston's. He has started every game for the last three years at Oregon. I also don't think there is a good argument that Mariotta is a product of the system. Masoli and Thomas never sniffed the NFL, Dixon has played 3 games in 7 years. Mariotta is doing so well in the offense because of his own abilities.
 
Reality is that if he can not win the starting job at Ohio state then he can not have an nfl career. All any nfl team has on him is 3 games of film. Some of the analysis of him I watched yesterday suggested his Accurracy was actually not that good and the style of offense Ohio State plays doesn't translate well into the NFL for QB's.

Money wise at least an NFL career perspective coming out this year might have been smart. Best scenario is he gets drafted by a team with an aging started and he gets 3 or 4 seasons yet to develop. No team was going to draft him to be their immediate starting QB

Brad Johnson (FSU) may have a word about that.
 
Winston should be #1 easily, if we're taking strictly on field performances into consideration. Infact he's probably the best pro ready QB prospect in probably the last 10 odd years bar Luck. He's better than Bradford, Newton, Stafford and Ryan.

Not so fast there. The great Mel Kiper (amongst others) had Ryan rated as the best QB prospect since Aikman. I have not once heard any of the so-called draft experts rate Winston that high. I also recall Bradford was very highly rated coming out.

He may be the best pro-ready QB but so was Chris Weinke.
 
All of this would be great if you said it last year. Off field stuff aside, he's not been impressive at all this year. I think he's more likely to drop out of the top ten than go first.

FSU lost of a lot of talent from the 2013 side, it's basically been Winston on his own this past season. He's also ran a pro-style offense and can make the kind of throws and reads that NFL scouts covet (according to the so-called experts). I'd wager he's a lock for top five barring a disastrous combine or another off the field issue, and most likely goes first overall.
 
Cook basically replaced Freeman's production exactly. 170-1008 v. 173-1016. Karlos Williams didn't do as well but the difference is negligible. Rashad Greene was 2nd team All America, O'Leary was key on third downs. His weapons got slightly worse than the year before but his production fell off a cliff.

Cook only started playing well at Syracuse in Week 6 though. Before that it was 13 yards, 3 yards, 40 yards etc, and later 20 vs Notre Dame, 36 vs Virginia. Winston basically had a weak running game for the first half of the season. And he had a struggling offensive line for the early parts with RS Freshman Ryan Hoefeld who replaced Austin Barron at center after Bryan Stork turned pro. Cam Erving was shifted to center with true freshman Rod Johnsonn at LT only in Week 10 vs Miami.

And his weapons weren't really slightly worse. They were way worse, both in terms of experience and production. Benjamin was their best receiver, a Sr and Winston's primary red zone target last season with 1000+ yards and 15 TDs. He was replaced by true freshman Travis Rudolph who hadn't played a single college snap before 2014 and had only 500 yards and 4 tds. Kenny Shaw had 900+ yards and 6 TDs in 2013. Replaced again by a true freshman Ermon Lane who produced 250 yards and 1 TD. That's a total difference of about 1200 yards and 16 TDs in 2 prime targets, never mind the route running/ blocking experience.

Florida (5th) - 12/24 125 yards 4 interceptions 1 fumble
Virginia (10th) - 22/35 261 yards 2 interceptions
Louisville (6th) - 25/48 401 yards 3 interceptions
Oregon (14th) - 29/45 348 yards 1 interception 2 fumbles

Florida game - 29 Nov 2014.
Louisville game - 30 Oct 2014.
Virginia game - 8 Nov 2014.

9 interceptions from a season total of 17 in 3 games.

Winston had a student conduct code hearing penciled for November which was then postponed to a bench presided by Harding on the 3rd of Dec 2014. We might want to take that into account. This is a human being, and very young, not some autobot who can compartmentalize everything and keep brushing things off. All that stuff swirling about was a huge distraction, albeit self inflicted. Then he had to wait for a month for the ruling results. All that, and the media driven witch hunt of a 20 year old, who was later acquitted certainly affected his decision making. How could it not.. This was also the time when he had the ankle injury (2nd half vs Louisville).

But the thing is despite all of that, they won all the games, a lot of times with him orchestrating a 4th quarter comeback. Sometimes interceptions are because of improper route running or lack of communication and some of the best QBs are turnover machines because they trust their arm so much. Peyton threw 28 interceptions in his rookie NFL reason and 72 in the next 4 seasons before cutting them out to an extent.

As for Mariotta, I don't share any of your concerns. His completion percentage is actually higher than Winston's. He has started every game for the last three years at Oregon. I also don't think there is a good argument that Mariotta is a product of the system. Masoli and Thomas never sniffed the NFL, Dixon has played 3 games in 7 years. Mariotta is doing so well in the offense because of his own abilities.

Mariota's completion percentage is higher because he operates in a gimmick offense with designed plays, wide open receivers, shallow routes, screens, bubbles, throws behind the LOS, most of his receivers' stats are YAC and 50 % of his throws are off play action. The completion percentage is gravely misleading. Awesome if we only look at the box score, but on the film it's very underwhelming given the type of throws he makes. How much of that will actually translate when the system is changed ?

Mariota had 68 %, 63 %, 68 % completion in his 3 seasons right ?
Well Tebow had 67%, 67%, 64%, 70% in a similar wide open shotgun offense under Malzahn and Meyer.
Manziel had 69%, 70% in the air raid offense at TAMU.

Now I'm not comparing Mariota (who's clearly better) to a QB who couldn't throw and another who ran around and is rolling joints in the pro. But it was just an exemplifications of how stats can be misleading. Hundley is an inferior prospect but had better accuracy at 69 % than Mariota at 68 % and Winston at 66 %.

Look at the game vs FSU. One pump fake was really good TBF but almost half of Mariota's throws were screen, fades, and shovel passes. Result = greater completion % stats. This will not work well in a traditional NFL scheme unless he's in Philly :

Contrast that with Winston who had 66 % completion for the season anyway so the difference isn't that big but really look at the game overall instead of just the raw stats. The difference between Oregon's running game and FSU's running game and overall playbook is as stark as can be.

image.png


24 TDS off plays action for Mariota. 24 ! And 1500 more yards. Will this type of play design work consistently vs pro defenses and linebackers who're just as fast as him ?

Not his best game but look at vs Oregon how Winston goes through the progression. anticipates throws and sends the receivers open, some deep balls, stands in the pocket, operating under center and makes throws into coverage (Oregon's LBs and DBs dropped into coverage for the whole game) that Mariota often doesn't :



Look at his exceptional 2nd half performance vs Notre Dame :



With Winston you get experience in the pro system and a better pocket passer. George Whitfield who trained Big Ben, Luck, Winston, Mariota, Manziel etc said his football IQ is on level with Luck and that's a bold statement. He can throw into zones, stronger arm, natural timing, more durable and all of that translates to the next level. He has to shorten his delivery, brush up some of the mechanics issues and zone coverage reads but it's all very fixable under a good QB coach. Winston is 9-0 in games decided 7 points or less, dude didn't lose a close game ever and his only career loss was vs Oregon which was a blowout with 2 Cook fumbles turning into TDs and FSU quitting on he game altogether. Mariota is 2-3 in games decided by 7 points of less.

I like Mariota too and he's a great role model and I agree with you to the extent that he's definitely much much better than some of Oregon's other quarterbacks. He has great sense of determination and work ethic and he has a chance to become as good as Cam Newton in the pros provided he goes to the right team. The physical tools and quickness are very good but he is more of a projection like Newton and RG3 were and will have to slowly learn the pro system. This is why I think the best thing for him is to fall in the draft so that desperate teams like Tampa or Tennessee or Jets don't pick him up, throw him in quickly and ruin him. He should redshirt his first season in the NFL and develop slowly. Like Green Bay did for Rodgers or the 49ers with Kaepernick who operated in a similar shotgun/ pistol offense as Mariota in Nevada and learned behind Alex Smith for about 15 months before becoming the starter.
 
Not so fast there. The great Mel Kiper (amongst others) had Ryan rated as the best QB prospect since Aikman. I have not once heard any of the so-called draft experts rate Winston that high. I also recall Bradford was very highly rated coming out.

He may be the best pro-ready QB but so was Chris Weinke.

Fair enough. It's a bit of a crapshoot anyway. Mayock and Al Davis were comparing Jamarcus Russell to Elway after his pro day.

Maybe Winston's the next Leaf but it wouldn't surprise me if he becomes a Top 5-ish pro QB. A lot of "draft gurus" had taken him off draft boards because of the off-field issues but are coming around now after really looking at the tape. Someone like Kiper didn't have him top 20 midseason and now thinks if Winston cleans up his off the field act, he could challenge Luck in the future. :lol:

Walter Football is not the greatest source because they do get some evaluations way off the mark to be fair, but Charlie Campbell who has a decent track record and good scout connections wrote :

As a pocket passer, Winston is extraordinary. He is phenomenal in the pocket and can carve up a defense. Winston has very good field vision and does a superb job of scanning the field while working through his progressions. It is an innate ability that Winston has displayed from the very beginning of his tenure as a starter, and it is extremely rare to see in a college quarterback. He hangs tough in the face of the pass rush, steps into throws when he's going to get hit, and moves well in the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield. Sources say that Winston has a good football I.Q. and will impress teams in pre-draft meetings.

As a prospect from a pure football perspective and ignoring the off-the-field issues, Winston is elite and in Andrew Luck's ballpark as a quarterback prospect. Winston is a potential franchise quarterback who can lead his team to championships. Numerous sources from multiple teams agree that Winston is just a little bit behind Luck, but is a better prospect than Cam Newton, Sam Bradford or Matthew Stafford were when they came out and went No. 1 overall. The off-the-field issues are the things that could derail Winston from reaching his potential. However, one can be sure that some team is going to look past the off-the-field issues and take Winston early in the 2015 NFL Draft.

Even if Tampa or Tennessee trade down, they will still have the QB issue to resolve next season. Mattenberger and whoever else those teams have are not very good. Goff, Hackenberg, Prescott look good right now, but come draft time thy'll also be picked apart relentlessly with the same kind of playing concerns. Happens every year.
 
Brad Johnson (FSU) may have a word about that.
Oh goodie posting one example. Matt cassell could also have been mentioned. The hundreds maybe even thousands of QB's who could not start in college and never had an NFL career support what I am saying. If jones finds himself mired on the bench not playing chances are high his NFL hopes are gone
 
Last edited:
Even if Jones was playing well it's a highly risky projection for the NFL. His OL gave him a clean pocket with just 4 sacks allowed in 3 games, very few hits or hurries, Elliot rushed for almost 700 yards in the 3 starts so he just had to hand the ball over to him or play action fake, plus the defense with Lee and Bennett and Bosa was playing lights out and the ST gave him awesome field positions.

We just don't know how he'll react to the shellacking he'll receive in the NFL, how well he reads coverage and picks up blitzes, how can he operate from the pocket when the running game dries up and so forth. People were just being kneejerk comparing him to Big Ben or a first round pick purely because of the physical tools but we just don't know how well he processes information which really makes or breaks pro QBs in the long run.

If he declared for the draft he would have been picked in a lower round. Would have guaranteed him a nice chunk of money and a chance to develop under the radar for a few years in professional football. That said I respect his decision to stay, even knowing Meyer has not guaranteed him a starting position. Either way he'll be remembered as the QB who brought the chip back to the Horseshoe.
 
Cook only started playing well at Syracuse in Week 6 though. Before that it was 13 yards, 3 yards, 40 yards etc, and later 20 vs Notre Dame, 36 vs Virginia. Winston basically had a weak running game for the first half of the season. And he had a struggling offensive line for the early parts with RS Freshman Ryan Hoefeld who replaced Austin Barron at center after Bryan Stork turned pro. Cam Erving was shifted to center with true freshman Rod Johnsonn at LT only in Week 10 vs Miami.

And his weapons weren't really slightly worse. They were way worse, both in terms of experience and production. Benjamin was their best receiver, a Sr and Winston's primary red zone target last season with 1000+ yards and 15 TDs. He was replaced by true freshman Travis Rudolph who hadn't played a single college snap before 2014 and had only 500 yards and 4 tds. Kenny Shaw had 900+ yards and 6 TDs in 2013. Replaced again by a true freshman Ermon Lane who produced 250 yards and 1 TD. That's a total difference of about 1200 yards and 16 TDs in 2 prime targets, never mind the route running/ blocking experience.



Florida game - 29 Nov 2014.
Louisville game - 30 Oct 2014.
Virginia game - 8 Nov 2014.

9 interceptions from a season total of 17 in 3 games.

Winston had a student conduct code hearing penciled for November which was then postponed to a bench presided by Harding on the 3rd of Dec 2014. We might want to take that into account. This is a human being, and very young, not some autobot who can compartmentalize everything and keep brushing things off. All that stuff swirling about was a huge distraction, albeit self inflicted. Then he had to wait for a month for the ruling results. All that, and the media driven witch hunt of a 20 year old, who was later acquitted certainly affected his decision making. How could it not.. This was also the time when he had the ankle injury (2nd half vs Louisville).

But the thing is despite all of that, they won all the games, a lot of times with him orchestrating a 4th quarter comeback. Sometimes interceptions are because of improper route running or lack of communication and some of the best QBs are turnover machines because they trust their arm so much. Peyton threw 28 interceptions in his rookie NFL reason and 72 in the next 4 seasons before cutting them out to an extent.



Mariota's completion percentage is higher because he operates in a gimmick offense with designed plays, wide open receivers, shallow routes, screens, bubbles, throws behind the LOS, most of his receivers' stats are YAC and 50 % of his throws are off play action. The completion percentage is gravely misleading. Awesome if we only look at the box score, but on the film it's very underwhelming given the type of throws he makes. How much of that will actually translate when the system is changed ?

Mariota had 68 %, 63 %, 68 % completion in his 3 seasons right ?
Well Tebow had 67%, 67%, 64%, 70% in a similar wide open shotgun offense under Malzahn and Meyer.
Manziel had 69%, 70% in the air raid offense at TAMU.

Now I'm not comparing Mariota (who's clearly better) to a QB who couldn't throw and another who ran around and is rolling joints in the pro. But it was just an exemplifications of how stats can be misleading. Hundley is an inferior prospect but had better accuracy at 69 % than Mariota at 68 % and Winston at 66 %.

Look at the game vs FSU. One pump fake was really good TBF but almost half of Mariota's throws were screen, fades, and shovel passes. Result = greater completion % stats. This will not work well in a traditional NFL scheme unless he's in Philly :

Contrast that with Winston who had 66 % completion for the season anyway so the difference isn't that big but really look at the game overall instead of just the raw stats. The difference between Oregon's running game and FSU's running game and overall playbook is as stark as can be.

image.png


24 TDS off plays action for Mariota. 24 ! And 1500 more yards. Will this type of play design work consistently vs pro defenses and linebackers who're just as fast as him ?

Not his best game but look at vs Oregon how Winston goes through the progression. anticipates throws and sends the receivers open, some deep balls, stands in the pocket, operating under center and makes throws into coverage (Oregon's LBs and DBs dropped into coverage for the whole game) that Mariota often doesn't :



Look at his exceptional 2nd half performance vs Notre Dame :



With Winston you get experience in the pro system and a better pocket passer. George Whitfield who trained Big Ben, Luck, Winston, Mariota, Manziel etc said his football IQ is on level with Luck and that's a bold statement. He can throw into zones, stronger arm, natural timing, more durable and all of that translates to the next level. He has to shorten his delivery, brush up some of the mechanics issues and zone coverage reads but it's all very fixable under a good QB coach. Winston is 9-0 in games decided 7 points or less, dude didn't lose a close game ever and his only career loss was vs Oregon which was a blowout with 2 Cook fumbles turning into TDs and FSU quitting on he game altogether. Mariota is 2-3 in games decided by 7 points of less.

I like Mariota too and he's a great role model and I agree with you to the extent that he's definitely much much better than some of Oregon's other quarterbacks. He has great sense of determination and work ethic and he has a chance to become as good as Cam Newton in the pros provided he goes to the right team. The physical tools and quickness are very good but he is more of a projection like Newton and RG3 were and will have to slowly learn the pro system. This is why I think the best thing for him is to fall in the draft so that desperate teams like Tampa or Tennessee or Jets don't pick him up, throw him in quickly and ruin him. He should redshirt his first season in the NFL and develop slowly. Like Green Bay did for Rodgers or the 49ers with Kaepernick who operated in a similar shotgun/ pistol offense as Mariota in Nevada and learned behind Alex Smith for about 15 months before becoming the starter.


There really is no such thing as a pro system anymore. Practically every team runs a lot of shotgun and a lot of motion in their offenses. The statue quarterbacks like Brady and Manning are a thing of the past. I don't think that football IQ comment really passes the sniff test either. Winston threw so many bad interceptions that he forced into spots and had another half dozen at least dropped by defenders. Yeah, "he didn't lose a close game" but he didn't win it either. The defense beat Florida and Virginia. The defense kept them in lots of games last year.

Marriott doesn't compare to Newton, in my opinion. Cardale Jones is a lot more like Cam. Mariotta has the scrambling ability of Russell Wilson (by far the best running QB around) and a much better arm. Jameis Winston I would compare more to an above average pocket passer who can run if need be. Someone like Tannehil maybe?
 
There really is no such thing as a pro system anymore. Practically every team runs a lot of shotgun and a lot of motion in their offenses. The statue quarterbacks like Brady and Manning are a thing of the past.

There's a major difference between % shotgun and always running out of shotgun like Mariota does though. For the majority of regular playoff teams and quarterbacks, a traditional drop-back is still the thoroughfare. And Winston isn't a pure pocket passer like Brady or Manning either. He has good scrambling ability. The difference is that Winston has many years of experience operating out of both drop-backs and in a shotgun/ pistol. Mariota has yet to evidence the ability to do that on a consistent basis considering he's taken 0 snaps from under center.

People talk about how statue passers are a thing of the past, yet the single most consistent aspect of some of the best quarterbacks even right now is exceptional pocket passing ability. Meanwhile runners like Kaepernick, Griffin, Newton struggled a lot this season and unnecessarily risk big hits. The only exception was Wilson (Rodgers ran a pro system at Cal) but more of him later.

I don't think that football IQ comment really passes the sniff test either. Winston threw so many bad interceptions that he forced into spots and had another half dozen at least dropped by defenders.

I don't agree with this premise at all to be fair. Peyton Manning is known as the most intelligent QB ever. A prototype. Yet he threw 28 interceptions in his rookie season. Dan Marino threw 46 interceptions in his junior and senior seasons at Pitt. Elway threw 52 interceptions in his first three seasons. Philip Rivers and Luck both pro bowlers threw a combined 34 interceptions. Winston had just 2 seasons of experience at FSU. He will only get better at reading underneath coverage with time.

Marriott doesn't compare to Newton, in my opinion. Cardale Jones is a lot more like Cam. Mariotta has the scrambling ability of Russell Wilson (by far the best running QB around) and a much better arm.

Here's the thing with the Russell Wilson comp though. People look at him and see a scrambling QB but he wasn't a spread QB in college. He was a touch passer, ran pro sets at NC State and Wisconsin for 4 years, and was an expert at it :



He could call plays on his own, run huddles (Mariota has 0 huddles on his resume), and could diagnose defenses pre-snap on his own.

Mariota is like Kaepernick/ Newton (in terms of gameplay) because all of his plays are designed and called by Helfrich/ Frost at the sidelines in Oregon's offense. He doesn't need to make checks, call hot routes or make any adjustments. Problem is that once they get in the NFL you're expected to do that, the coordinator can't babysit you every time. There's a clear difference between a pro trained QB (like Wilson in the video above) and a spread QB like Newton :



Jameis Winston I would compare more to an above average pocket passer who can run if need be. Someone like Tannehil maybe?

Harsh. Tannehill was a WR convert. Winston was the No. 1 QB prospect out of high-school and there'a almost a growing consensus that Winston is the clear cut best QB in the draft and comparable to someone like Roethlisberger, Rivers or McNair.

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/video?vid=381336643606
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/...iota-vs-winston-a-unique-scouting-opportunity

Mariota's best pro comparison according to most experts is Kaepernick or RGIII who both struggled mightily this season.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...riffin-iii-from-baylor-days-in-marcus-mariota
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/cfb/34822/three-nfl-execs-compare-mariota-to-kaepernick
 
Trent Richardson has been a major flop for the Colts. Hasn't even flown to New England, not that he'd have done much if he made the trip.
 
Conference Championship day is here!! Should be 2 great games.

Pats have literally run over Indy the last 2 meetings. However, the protection Luck had last week and the way Indy's D played, it's going be a close game. I really hope we have a balanced offense and don't just rely on Brady to do something spectacular. Revis was unusually poor last week, he needs to step up again and shut down Hilton like he did in the regular season. Think the Pats will edge this.

The NFC game depends on Rodgers' health for me. If he's fit and able to move around and make plays happen, GB have a great chance of winning. Otherwise, I think Seattle will suffocate that offense and get the win. Hoping for a GB win, but I reckon Seattle will win.
 
Conference Championship day is here!! Should be 2 great games.

Pats have literally run over Indy the last 2 meetings. However, the protection Luck had last week and the way Indy's D played, it's going be a close game. I really hope we have a balanced offense and don't just rely on Brady to do something spectacular. Revis was unusually poor last week, he needs to step up again and shut down Hilton like he did in the regular season. Think the Pats will edge this.

The NFC game depends on Rodgers' health for me. If he's fit and able to move around and make plays happen, GB have a great chance of winning. Otherwise, I think Seattle will suffocate that offense and get the win. Hoping for a GB win, but I reckon Seattle will win.
Very weird, pre-game it was all "Browner's discipline issues will cause Pats trouble, but Revis will be a rock", but exactly the opposite is what happened.
 
I think Denver were as bad as Indy were good last week. Brady and Belichick will have too much for them, I think, but any given Sunday n' all.

I reckon Green Bay and Seattle will be closer than people think.
 
Anyone got a link for good quality streams to the games?

Can't see past the Seahawks for the Superbowl but would love to see Luck beat the Patriots.
 
I have not watched enough of NFL this season but are the pats favorites to beat Indy.

Yes, NE is favored. The home side is normally favored in the playoffs.

Pats by 7
Hawks by 8 (line has moved up considerably, from an opening 6.5 if memory serves)

My picks: New England 31 - 17 Indianapolis (Gronk will be the X factor vs an Indy side that struggles against TEs)
Seattle 23 - 20 Green Bay (Hawks defense just too much for Green Bay; if Rodgers is hobbled/ineffective/knocked out, Seattle may win by a very large margin)

I'm rooting for a NE vs GB Super Bowl though.
 
ESPN is reporting that Luck and the Colts management are near agreement on a contract extension that will make Luck the highest paid player in league history, around $25m per year average. Good luck trying to sign more pieces to improve on this squad if Luck takes up 1/5 or 1/6 of the cap.
 
ESPN is reporting that Luck and the Colts management are near agreement on a contract extension that will make Luck the highest paid player in league history, around $25m per year average. Good luck trying to sign more pieces to improve on this squad if Luck takes up 1/5 or 1/6 of the cap.

They will be fine. Coming off the books this year alone is:

Wayne $6 million
Redding $4.4 million
Nicks $4 million
Hasselback $3.75 million
Butler $3 million

That's $24 million right there and Luck was already projected for $7 million so it's only a $18 million raise and they have one more year of Richardson making $3 million.

Rodgers is making $22 million but it hasn't stopped Green Bay from putting together a team. Would you rather have Luck at 25 or one of these guys: Kaepernick 19, Flacco 20, Cutler 18, Ryan 21?

I think the answer is clear.
 
Oh gosh, I hope Rodgers is able to move today And the OL can protect him to move around.