Can we go back to trashing Nick Sirriani again please
NFL 2023
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
A) Cherry picking the one winning season he had in Cleveland and mentioning the one season with Cassel (when he still missed the playoffs BTW) doesn't help your case. Without Brady, he has a losing record as a coach. We're supposed to be talking about the greatest coach of all time here, not someone competent. You do realise that there are many coaches who have won Super Bowls with average or passable QBs? And there are coaches who have won significantly with and without HOF QBs? There's a couple coaching in the NFL right now
B) Yards and touchdowns, eh? What was the team's win-loss record with Jameis that season? With that 'stacked squad'? Just remind me
C) saying he's an 'excellent player' just sounds like a silly statement. Lionel Messi is an 'excellent player'. Pele was an 'excellent player'. Michael Jordan was an 'excellent player'
He's the greatest QB of all time, by virtually every measure. I think Mahomes can pass him, but he has a lot of work to do. If you don't think he is the GOAT, I'd be interested to know who you think is and why.
It's not a stupid suggestion at all. Everyone who is successful in a team sport has support. But QB is a unique position in sport, especially in this pass happy era.
The issue is that Brady had success without Belichick (the ultimate success) Belichick has not had HC success without Brady, either before or after him.
The point is not that BB can't coach; or that he had nothing to do with NE's success. The point is that if someone is really the greatest coach of all time, should their fortunes be so radically different with and without one player? Joe Gibbs won 3 Super Bowls with 3 different QBs, none of whom are going to get anywhere near the Hall of Fame. Shula won with different guys. Andy Reid made 4 straight NFC title games with a guy who was good but not a HOFer.
If anyone has a good nfl stream please PM me!
Can't. PM me.
But it’s not so black & white like you are making it seem like. There were Super Bowl ones when the two were together where Brady wasn’t the main reason at all so this idea that Brady doing it without BB proves much is not right imo.
Aw, you're seething. I am not attributing all the success nor do I discount the supporting cast - I have mentioned in threads and know how QBs are mostly successful as part of a team, but the elite, the best of the best, raise those teams to higher levels and win multiple championships (or get them to that game); Mahomes is the best right now and may end up the best ever. Understandable you struggled to comprehend what I mentioned about Belichick's coaching, defensive genius, personnel decisions, etc. in your odd anti-Brady nature. It's obvious a generational QB will deliver far more success, example: his coaching record without Brady. I mean, I suppose they could have won a Super Bowl with Bledsoe as the full-time starter, eh? Maybe won 3 of 4 with Bledsoe? Still time to win with Mac perhaps.
13 points is an interesting barometer as multiple winning teams have scored less than 20 in the Super Bowl and yes, only one QB has won twice if you're subtracting Ty Law's defensive score against the Rams, very very sneaky, Sir. Brady then drove that offense 53 yards in ~1:20, going 5-of-6 non-spike passes for 53 yards to set up the GWFG attempt. In fact, in every SB with NE, Brady's team held the lead at some point in the 4th, often late, with the defense surrendering leads with 1:37 v StL; 7:06 & 1:13 v Car; 0:39 v NYG; 1:04 v NYG; 8:00 v Sea; 9:26 & 1:10 v Phi. Defense did close up shop late vs Phi 2004, vs Sea 2014 (after an unbelievable fluke catch), vs LAR 2018; and vs Atl 2016 down 25.
Here's two cherry-picked stats...
Super Bowl record when the opponent tops 27 points:
Brady: 2-1
All others: 4-36 - includes games both teams topped 27, i.e., 1-1
Super Bowl record down by 20+ at any point in game:
Brady: 1-0
All others: 0-20
QB wins age 40+:
Brady: 68
All others: 62
QB playoff wins age 40+:
Brady: 10
All others: 2
Speaking of the Top 10 defenses using yards allowed you posted. Points against matters most but I know the league "ranks" offenses and defenses by yards. Here's a nugget for ya in yards allowed...
2001: NE 24th vs StL 3rd - won SB
2003: NE 7th vs Car 8th - won SB
2004: NE 9th vs Phi 10th - won SB
2007: NE 4th vs NYG 7th - lost SB
2011: NE 31st vs NYG 27th - lost SB
2014: NE 13th vs Sea 1st - won SB
2016: NE 8th vs Atl 25th - won SB
2017: NE 29th vs Phi 4th - lost SB
2018: NE 21st vs LAR 19th - won SB
2020: TB 6th vs KC 16th - won SB
Brady's offenses faced 6 top 10 ranked defenses (yards), winning 4 titles against. NE had 5-of-9 defenses outside the Top 10 defenses (yards) in their Super Bowl appearances, with 4 near the bottom. Perhaps fairly summed up those early years was a defensive natured team though by the 2010s it was the offense carrying them to success.
Curious how you rate Joe Montana, who had weapons galore in SF and KC and played with 10 top 10 defenses in points against in his 12 years as the primary starting QB. Does that lessen Montana's greatness or impact?
The logic you are using is as if you don't actually watch the sport.
Comparing him to Messi/Jordan etc. Jesus wept. His play was good, very good, but far from the apex for quarterbacks.
Are you of the opinion that no other quarterback could have won as many championships under the same conditions?
Ah, the semi-annual Brady debate. It’s back.
This statement demonstrates that you are the one who in fact does not watch or understand the sport.
I brought up those names because they are people who are universally regarded as GOATS. It's got nothing to do with the sport they play. Calling people of that level 'very good' is just a dumb thing to say
My answer to your question is; if you are talking about his peers and contemporaries, then yes. I have no idea if Johnny Unitas or Bart Starr would have succeeded to the same degree under those conditions cos I never saw them play. But Rodgers, Peyton etc.? Yeah, I don't think they could have replicated what Brady did.
Now answer my question please. Who is better and why?
Sorry
It's not about lessening anything, it's about adding context. For example, Marino never won a Superbowl, does that make him less 'great' than Eli/Dilfer/Stafford etc?
Messi and Jordan are (and were) far better than any other player on the planet during their careers. Brady was never close to that.
It's partly my fault for not claiming Belichick is the greatest coach ever ever ever. I believe he struck the lottery with Brady. He's a defensive genius and fantastic coach but his career goes another route without finding an all-time great QB. It reflects in his Cleveland stint and his post-Brady NE tenure.
Of course not. I have never seen you post anything so demonstratively negative about other great QBs except for Brady. It's weird, like a simmering hatred for the man, like did he reject your advances once? Refuse to sign a football card? Piss on your cat/dog?
The only reason I post 'negatively' regarding Brady is because I feel his 'GOAT' moniker is unjustified, and that comparisons to sporting legends like Jordan/Gretzky/Lebron/Messi make a mockery of what it means to be the best player in your sport.
God I hate how Jason Bell speaks
That was a heck of a start for Green Bay.
That didn't look catchable to be DPI.
Yep. Good reply by the Lions.
I agree about Messi but lots of people (I call them crazies) think Ronaldo is comparable. And Jordan came into a league that was dominated by Magic and Bird and didn't win a title for 7 years.
But again I ask; who is better than Brady and why?
How so?
The NFL is difficult to access overall greatness with positional play as players don't play both sides, generally speaking as some have. I haven't seen anyone comparing an NFL goat to other sports, nor should they. No sport can be universally compared across lines. When I hear analysts and fans say Brady is the goat I only think of QB, which is the top position in the sport. But you hear other claims like goat RB, goat WR, goat CB, etc. So, how does citing Brady as the goat QB make a "mockery"?
Weak strawman, easily dismissed. Who is better, Joe Montana or Dan Marino?
If we're on the subject of greatest NFL player regardless of position, it's such a tough call. This may not be fair but I tend to dismiss players pre-Merger, just a different era. That removes Jim Brown and Dick Butkus, even though they'd likely be great today accounting for various advances in medicine, science, fitness, full-time sport, scheming, etc. They literally dominated against part-time players and in differing rule sets.
I'd go Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor in modern times, pound for pound, position for position. I think there can be an argument with Rice but Taylor was an unstoppable force that caused OCs to alter game plans (same for Deion Sanders in the passing game but he was one-dimensional in that aspect).
I'd go Jerry Rice and Lawrence Taylor in modern times, pound for pound, position for position. I think there can be an argument with Rice but Taylor was an unstoppable force that caused OCs to alter game plans (same for Deion Sanders in the passing game but he was one-dimensional in that aspect).
Great start this
Yep.
I think that's sort of unfair. Marino is the superior passer but Montana was the ultimate leader and winner in his era. Transpose them and Marino is unquestionably the goat winning titles in Bill Walsh's system, can't see Montana taking those Dolphins teams to glory but he would have under Gibbs' Redskins or Parcells' Giants. Marino would have flourished in SF as would Elway.
It is a fair point when someone ponders what Brees or P.Manning would have done in New England, though P.Manning did manage to fold under pressure in the postseason quite often. I think the difference here is that Brady would have gotten those other teams to the big game more so.
Is this normalcy for Detroit's defense this year? I haven't seen any of their games that I recall.
Fumble.
Oh boy, that's a big hole for Detroit to climb from. They can do it though but this should set up for a fantastic second half.
Hell, we aren't even into the second quarter yet!
Another fumble from Goff. Nightmare first quarter for Detroit.
Goff 
Wild start to this game
The problem is that you here and the other Brady hating guy (sorry to conflate you) think that arm talent/passing ability = the best. Montana was great (and better than Marino) for the same reason that Brady was great (and better than Peyton and Rodgers): they played better in the biggest moments, when the pressure is at its highest. Both Brady and Montana even exhibited this ability in college, but their physical deficiencies led to them both being low draft picks.
What the feck was that?