NFL 2020

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Organic Potatoes said:
That’s a different conversation, as a five tool outfielder plays every game unlike a pitcher and is no ‘mere’ outfielder (and I don’t know why you mentioned catcher). The best MLB players ever list will include plenty of pitchers regardless.

Donald doesn’t really change my argument here either, as a main reason he’s so great is because he can disrupt the QB - the most important position now. Mahomes and Donald are 1-2 in whatever order you want right now, but Donald will need a Von Miller type Super Bowl performance or two to get into the greatest player of all time discussion going forward.
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Donald wasn't part of an argument, I simply shared who I thought was the current best player. And Pitchers don't get extra points for being pitchers even though you are not winning in the post season without an ace, it's by far the most important position group which is my point.
 
Rawls said:
But then how do you come up with a rational set of metrics? It's possible in baseball as baseball can be reduced down to a battle between pitcher and batter with infielders and outfielders paling in significance. On the other hand, football is a sport of many moving parts. The statistical output of a QB is a function of their own performance but it is also a function of their OL's performance, their supporting cast's performance, the opposing DL's performance, the opposing LB's performance, the opposing secondary's performance, the play-calling and emphasis of the offense, the play-calling and emphasis of the defense, the weather, situational circumstances etc. Taking that altogether, it becomes extraordinarily difficult to disentangle QB output from QB performance, something which makes constructing a rational metric nigh-impossible.
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Obviously every position is going to have its own rational, always referenced key stats. QBs have their four or five (Yards, TDs, ratings, completions, INTs etc). RBs will have their own, as will receivers, as will DBs.

As for the second part, yes football is a team sport where a player's success depends on the team's success, which is why you have to bring in how successful the team they played on were during their time there (aka "rings"). You can also take an interpretavist approach to this by asking how QB x would fare if they were on team y instead of team x (what if Marino played on the 49ers, or what if Brady played his career on the Bengals etc).
 
Charlie Foley said:
Last night doesn’t really say much for me on who a GOAT QB is or isn’t. If you swap Brady and Mahomes, Buccs still walk that one in my opinion. People like to oversimplify or use illogical metrics for these things because it’s easier and people like making declarative statements.
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Yep fully agree. But if you dare to question the status of Brady you’re just labelled a biased hater.

JPRouve said:
That's why even as a QB it's arguable. Brees, has more passing yards, more completions, a better QBR and a better completion rate. Now because they are close it's fair to use rings but then you realize that Brees got let down by very poor defenses and special teams while Brady mainly played with above average and often top 10 defenses and top 10 special teams.
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This guy gets it. Nuance.
 
RobinLFC said:
Has Aaron Donald been better at his position than, say, Derrick Henry at his over the last two years? I'd say that's up for debate too, but no one is putting Henry in a current day top 5 NFL players probably.

Always hard to compare. Players play to win a ring though, and Brady has seven of them. It puts more weight into the conversation than completion percentage or other stats for me, even though it's a team game.
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The answer would be yes, Donald has outside linebacker stats as a 3-4 D lineman. He faces double teams 70% of the time which is the highest and still has the highest pass rush win rate, teams went as far as triple teaming him. He is in a league of his own among pass rushers.
 
Donald should be in that discussion with Randy & Reggie White, Bruce Smith, Deacon Jones, Bob Lilly, Joe Greene, Allan Page, and a few others as the best DL ever.
 
Charlie Foley said:
Last night doesn’t really say much for me on who a GOAT QB is or isn’t. If you swap Brady and Mahomes, Buccs still walk that one in my opinion. People like to oversimplify or use illogical metrics for these things because it’s easier and people like making declarative statements.
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It's not just about last night though , Brady at 43 just won the SB with a team that didn't make the playoffs last season . He did it in a season with no preseason & reduced practice time for players while beating Brees ,Rodgers and Mahomes on the way in the playoffs. This is one of his biggest achievements 19 years after his first SB .
 
JPRouve said:
That's why even as a QB it's arguable. Brees, has more passing yards, more completions, a better QBR and a better completion rate. Now because they are close it's fair to use rings but then you realize that Brees got let down by very poor defenses and special teams while Brady mainly played with above average and often top 10 defenses and top 10 special teams.
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These are hypotheticals though. I wouldn't try to shoehorn Brady into the Saints or Brees into the Pats as part of the GOAT equation since those things didn't happen. The only things you can go by are what actually took place.
 
Raoul said:
These are hypotheticals though. I wouldn't try to shoehorn Brady into the Saints or Brees into the Pats as part of the GOAT equation since those things didn't happen. The only things you can go by are what actually took place.
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There isn't a single hypothetical in my post. Brees has better stats in most QB oriented stats and the Patriots defenses and special teams have been considerably better than the Saints defenses and special teams. I didn't ask you to swap them, I simply used stats as you suggested and Brady loses in most outside of rings, TDs and interceptions.
 
JPRouve said:
Exactly, Tampa plays a lot of 2-4 personnel. You have a numerical disadvantage in the passing game and you are unlikely to find open receivers on fast developing routes. The way to beat that fron effectively is to run on them and get first downs, then they will have to change their personnel and bring an other run defender which puts the Chiefs in an advantageous position. Now the issue is that the Chiefs O line is average at run blocking with its starters and below average with the backups. And that's why they mistakenly only attempted 11 runs between their RBs and even then Edwards-Elaire recorded 64 yards in 9 attempts.
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Also, running such plays only work if your defense can get the necessary stops at the other end. If not, it is kinda pointless.
 
JPRouve said:
There isn't a single hypothetical in my post. Brees has better stats in most QB oriented stats and the Patriots defenses and special teams have been considerably better than the Saints defenses and special teams. I didn't ask you to swap them, I simply used stats as you suggested and Brady loses in most outside of rings, TDs and interceptions.
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I believe Brady and Brees are fairly even on stats, but one has many more rings. The reasons why various teammates or coaches they had over the years is not (imo) applicable since the QBs had no say in who they play with. Brady joined a fairly average Pats team with a losing record in 2000 and proceeded to win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. They literally became good when he replaced Bledsoe, at which point he got 3 rings by the age of 26 which is more than Brees got his entire career - irrespective of who had the better defenses over the past two decades.
 
Compare this to the likes of Rodgers getting to throw to Davante Adams(the only WR he trusts), MVS(MVP of drops), Allen Lazard, Mercedes Lewis, Tonyan, etc. It doesn't even come close to a fair comparison tbh.

 
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Raoul said:
I believe Brady and Brees are fairly even on stats, but one has many more rings. The reasons why various teammates or coaches they had over the years is not (imo) applicable since the QBs had no say in who they play with. Brady joined a fairly average Pats team with a losing record in 2000 and proceeded to win 3 Super Bowls in 4 years. They literally became good when he replaced Bledsoe, at which point he got 3 rings by the age of 26 which is more than Brees got his entire career - irrespective of who had the better defenses over the past two decades.
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You asked for QB stats and now you want to ignore them for something that isn't QB oriented, wins aren't a QB stat. As far as I'm concern you can name Brady as the best QB and use the rings in his favor but if you use stats and give context to the none QB stats then his status is arguable, I'm not saying that he isn't the best but simply stating the fact that there is a conversation when we are talking about actual quaterbacking without the intangibles and jewelries.

If I'm not mistaken the conversation is statiscally between Brees, Brady and Rodgers. I personally won't got further than that because you could refine some of these stats and I'm fine with any of them being the arguable best.
 
Or you could watch them play for fifteen minutes and realise Brady is nowhere close to Marino/Mahomes/Rodgers
 
Another tidbit from last night: the Jags drafted Leonard Fournette at 4, and are so bad now they’re drafting first. 3 years later he was off the team and the Bucs picked him up on the cheap prior to winning it all.

#eboueWasRight
 
Organic Potatoes said:
Another tidbit from last night: the Jags drafted Leonard Fournette at 4, and are so bad now they’re drafting first. 3 years later he was off the team and the Bucs picked him up on the cheap prior to winning it all.

#eboueWasRight
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It's worth mentioning that the RB replacing him is undrafted and managed to have more yards per attempt than Fournette has ever managed in the NFL, he also rushed for more than 1000 yards.
 
I don't think this will be the best thread in next awards. (Or the NFL 2021). This certainly isn't GOAT thread at least!
 
entropy said:
Compare this to the likes of Rodgers getting to throw to Davante Adams(the only WR he trusts), MVS(MVP of drops), Allen Lazard, Mercedes Lewis, Tonyan, etc. It doesn't even come close to a fair comparison tbh.

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Well maybe Rodgers isn't likeable enough for people to want to play with him . You forget the fact that for years Brady played & won with some very average receivers
 
RobinLFC said:


I'll take a straight swap with Watson :nervous:
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To the best of my knowledge, La Canfora is nearly always wrong. If he says something is happening, usually the opposite outcome ends up happening.
 
rpitroda said:
We pin this on a bad o-line and yes that’s the fundamental issue. But the reason he ended up running so much is ALSO because the Chiefs failed to adapt their game plan. It was clear Mahomes had rightly lost all faith in having a pocket, and I can’t remember therefore many plays where he dropped back and even gave throwing from the pocket a chance. He immediately ran, largely due to rushers swarming so quickly. But, the Chiefs never adapted to do something different to get it out quick. It was almost like “it’s Mahomes, it’ll eventually pay off if we just keep doing it”. Some of the blame is on them too. Which feels so odd to say because the ingenuity of the Chiefs offence has been special all year.
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They have got to do a better job of running the ball. In fact it was so surprising to see them not do much on Sunday.
 
entropy said:
Compare this to the likes of Rodgers getting to throw to Davante Adams(the only WR he trusts), MVS(MVP of drops), Allen Lazard, Mercedes Lewis, Tonyan, etc. It doesn't even come close to a fair comparison tbh.

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Gronk had retired for a year. AB was out of the game, and not the same AB. Fournette was cut by the Jags. Not really an all pro offense. And he threw what 2-3 passes to his best receiver?
 
For those who subscribe to advanced metrics

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mav_9me said:
Gronk had retired for a year. AB was out of the game, and not the same AB. Fournette was cut by the Jags. Not really an all pro offense. And he threw what 2-3 passes to his best receiver?
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Are you saying it makes no difference? Also, I forgot to add Mike Evans and Godwin.
 
Rawls said:
That's Playoffs data, correct? Looks a bit different to the regular season version below.

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That's correct, the one I posted is for the playoffs (see week 18-21)

The one you've shared is averaged rank which is misleading.
 
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