NFL 2020

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The GOAT debate in general is laughable.
I mean there are and have been so many great football players... why are we talking just about QBs?
Jerry Rice, LT, Deon Sanders, Vinatieri... so many great, great players in their positions.
 
Raoul said:
Ok...I take everything about Brady back.

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What objective metrics make Brady the best at Football, I can see the metrics that make him the best QB or even the best offensive player, but he isn't the best defensive player or the best linebacker. Is there an objective individual metric that makes him better than Ray Lewis or Lawrence Taylor?
 
JPRouve said:
What objective metrics make Brady the best at Football, I can see the metrics that make him the best QB or even the best offensive player, but he isn't the best defensive player or the best linebacker. Is there an objective individual metric that makes him better than Ray Lewis or Lawrence Taylor?
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Of course not.
 
JPRouve said:
What objective metrics make Brady the best at Football, I can see the metrics that make him the best QB or even the best offensive player, but he isn't the best defensive player or the best linebacker. Is there an objective individual metric that makes him better than Ray Lewis or Lawrence Taylor?
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I believe they are talking GOAT as in the best QB. For Brady's case it would be a combination of rings and stats. He's #1 or 2 in most of the major passing categories like yards, TDs etc, and #7 on QB rating. So when you combine the rings and stats, there's little room to argue anyone is even close to him.
 
Rings is a truly daft way to measure who the better player is/was.

Was Eli Manning better than Aaron Rodgers?
 
Raoul said:
That's what's so confounding about last night. They knew they were weak on OL and also knew the Bucs D was peaking coming into the game, and yet didn't adapt their own game plan to mitigate weaknesses. The ball should've been out of his hands in 2 (no more than 3) seconds on each snap.
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This would have worked for a couple of plays. But that's about it.
 
It's impossible to argue who is the best NFL player ever across the board. They're specialized positions, solely offensive, defensive, or specialists with very few having done both offense and defense, or all three, especially in the modern era post 1970. In the other sports one has to play both offense and defense. Easier to take the whole body of work into a debate with that data. It's also dumb to cross debate who is the greatest athlete and to ever argue for a cricketer, baseball player, or golfer in that category.
 
entropy said:
This would have worked for a couple of plays. But that's about it.
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Exactly, Tampa plays a lot of 2-4 personnel. You have a numerical disadvantage in the passing game and you are unlikely to find open receivers on fast developing routes. The way to beat that fron effectively is to run on them and get first downs, then they will have to change their personnel and bring an other run defender which puts the Chiefs in an advantageous position. Now the issue is that the Chiefs O line is average at run blocking with its starters and below average with the backups. And that's why they mistakenly only attempted 11 runs between their RBs and even then Edwards-Elaire recorded 64 yards in 9 attempts.
 
MrMarcello said:
It's impossible to argue who is the best NFL player ever across the board. They're specialized positions, solely offensive, defensive, or specialists with very few having done both offense and defense, or all three, especially in the modern era post 1970. In the other sports one has to play both offense and defense. Easier to take the whole body of work into a debate with that data. It's also dumb to cross debate who is the greatest athlete and to ever argue for a cricketer, baseball player, or golfer in that category.
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When I read Shapiro's list I had a thought that I know has been mentioned by specialists. Phelps is the best in pool swimming, not in open water, it would have been intereseting to see him compete against someone like Stoychev.
 
JPRouve said:
When I read Shapiro's list I had a thought that I know has been mentioned by specialists. Phelps is the best in pool swimming, not in open water, it would have been intereseting to see him compete against someone like Stoychev.
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No clue when it comes to some of the Olympic sports but what I do know is Shapiro doesn't have a clue either. He's just throwing up namesakes and Americans. I've heard some argue Phelps is the greatest Olympian because of his medal count but how does one compare across other arenas in one particular sport, like swimming as you mentioned, let alone against all other fields of competition. It's stupid conjecture IMO.
 
i don't pretend to be an expert but could KC have got more help for the OL from tight ends blocking? Maybe they did, I wasn't paying too much attention at the time.
 
Rado_N said:
Bucs D holds the Chiefs to 9 points and still people are pushing the narrative that Brady won the game. Predictably.
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Last night doesn’t really say much for me on who a GOAT QB is or isn’t. If you swap Brady and Mahomes, Buccs still walk that one in my opinion. People like to oversimplify or use illogical metrics for these things because it’s easier and people like making declarative statements.
 
Charlie Foley said:
Last night doesn’t really say much for me on who a GOAT QB is or isn’t. If you swap Brady and Mahomes, Buccs still walk that one in my opinion. People like to oversimplify or use illogical metrics for these things because it’s easier and people like making declarative statements.
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By any metric that 's the worst post ever.
 
JPRouve said:
Exactly, Tampa plays a lot of 2-4 personnel. You have a numerical disadvantage in the passing game and you are unlikely to find open receivers on fast developing routes. The way to beat that fron effectively is to run on them and get first downs, then they will have to change their personnel and bring an other run defender which puts the Chiefs in an advantageous position. Now the issue is that the Chiefs O line is average at run blocking with its starters and below average with the backups. And that's why they mistakenly only attempted 11 runs between their RBs and even then Edwards-Elaire recorded 64 yards in 9 attempts.
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They were basically daring Andy to run it. CEH averaging over 7 yards tells you that. But they kept whiffing at critical junctions on both dropped passes and penalties and got themselves in a hole.

Normally they’d adapt, as they did when they just ran it down the Bills‘ throats in the regular season. But Andy was probably thinking about TB’s #1 run D and the deficit that was building I’m guessing.
 
sidsutton said:
i don't pretend to be an expert but could KC have got more help for the OL from tight ends blocking? Maybe they did, I wasn't paying too much attention at the time.
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They could have left in an extra TE but I think they felt that they wouldn't be able to block TB either way and that the best possible option therefore was to have as many players as possible running routes.
 
Rawls said:
And what stats do you propose specifically?
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The usual suspects - passing yards, TDs, completions, ratings etc. If you combine these with how many Super Bowls a player has won, it can be a pretty informative guide as to where they stand in the pantheon of greatness.
 
sidsutton said:
i don't pretend to be an expert but could KC have got more help for the OL from tight ends blocking? Maybe they did, I wasn't paying too much attention at the time.
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Neither of their TEs are blockers and Kelce is their main target on passing downs, so you can't really use him that much in the run. They could have enginereed something but you are still talking about replacement level linemen against the best run defense and second best defense in terms of pressure. Andy Reid is good at making things happen but not that good, you still need players that are able to execute it.
 
Rado_N said:
Rings is a truly daft way to measure who the better player is/was.

Was Eli Manning better than Aaron Rodgers?
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To completely ignore the rings is also daft though , for these two I can say that there's not much difference between 1 & 2 rings so the rest of the stats make Rogers clearly better . For Rodgers & Brady you can't really argue that 1 & 7 can be compared
 
Organic Potatoes said:
They were basically daring Andy to run it. CEH averaging over 7 yards tells you that. But they kept whiffing at critical junctions on both dropped passes and penalties and got themselves in a hole.

Normally they’d adapt, as they did when they just ran it down the Bills‘ throats in the regular season. But Andy was probably thinking about TB’s #1 run D and the deficit that was building I’m guessing.
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That's how I see it too. I assume that he called the game with a bit of fear, having seen the Vikings run at them with no fear I know that it's possible and the Chiefs are a better team overall.
 
The greatest player ever discussion is obviously taking into consideration the increased importance of the QB in the game. 10-20 years ago the all-time great was Jim Brown or Jerry Rice.

Not sure why anyone gives a feck about what Shapiro thinks though.
 
Raoul said:
The usual suspects - passing yards, TDs, completions, ratings etc. If you combine these with how many Super Bowls a player has won, it can be a pretty informative guide as to where they stand in the pantheon of greatness.
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Useless to compare across eras. If you were to combine all of the QBs who threw a pass this season, you'd get a 93.5 QB Rating - that's higher than the career marks of Joe Montana, Andrew Luck, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, ... It's just not right to compare Elway or Marino to Brees and Brady with how pass happy the league is right now.
 
JPRouve said:
What objective metrics make Brady the best at Football, I can see the metrics that make him the best QB or even the best offensive player, but he isn't the best defensive player or the best linebacker. Is there an objective individual metric that makes him better than Ray Lewis or Lawrence Taylor?
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You can make that arguement about footballers where people always say the greatest of all time are attacking players.

What makes Messi Or Ronaldo better than Maldini, Beckenbauer etc ?

Brady deserves to be mentioned as the best player as he has delivered over such a long period of time and now won with two different teams.

His very presence lifts players he knows exactly what it takes to win and goes out and gets that then delivers.
 
RobinLFC said:
Useless to compare across eras. If you were to combine all of the QBs who threw a pass this season, you'd get a 93.5 QB Rating - that's higher than the career marks of Joe Montana, Andrew Luck, Dan Marino, Brett Favre, Troy Aikman, ... It's just not right to compare Elway or Marino to Brees and Brady with how pass happy the league is right now.
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I agree its hard to compare eras.
 
Raoul said:
I agree its hard to compare eras.
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Then how does a GOAT debate make any sense in that context? Surely, the only debate which would hold any water would be a debate about the greatest of a generation?
 
Organic Potatoes said:
The greatest player ever discussion is obviously taking into consideration the increased importance of the QB in the game. 10-20 years ago the all-time great was Jim Brown or Jerry Rice.

Not sure why anyone gives a feck about what Shapiro thinks though.
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First I like to disagree with Shapiro, even when it's not worth it. And I do like the idea of a conversation around who is the best player, now I'm not convinced by the QB importance argument that doesn't make a player better, take Baseball as an example, there is nothing more important than your top pitcher and his catcher, yet no one thinks that the best MLB player is someone else than Mike Trout, a mere center fielder.

If I was to name the current best NFL player, I would say that it's Aaron Donald.
 
lsd said:
You can make that arguement about footballers where people always say the greatest of all time are attacking players.

What makes Messi Or Ronaldo better than Maldini, Beckenbauer etc ?

Brady deserves to be mentioned as the best player as he has delivered over such a long period of time and now won with two different teams.

His very presence lifts players he knows exactly what it takes to win and goes out and gets that then delivers.
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He deserves to be mentioned but it's an arguable mention like with every other names because there is no objective answer. Despite the fact that I love his game, I will never unequivocally name him the best of all time outside of maybe his own position.
 
Rawls said:
Then how does a GOAT debate make any sense in that context? Surely, the only debate which would hold any water would be a debate about the greatest of a generation?
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The eras can be a problem, but ultimately these debates are still going to happen in most sports, especially in the online social media worlds where people like to argue. Just look at the endless debates on the footy forums or even here in the Tennis threads. The best way to settle them is to come up with a rational set of metrics that allow people to merge quantitate and qualitative information to come up with a 90% solution.
 
Raoul said:
The usual suspects - passing yards, TDs, completions, ratings etc. If you combine these with how many Super Bowls a player has won, it can be a pretty informative guide as to where they stand in the pantheon of greatness.
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That's why even as a QB it's arguable. Brees, has more passing yards, more completions, a better QBR and a better completion rate. Now because they are close it's fair to use rings but then you realize that Brees got let down by very poor defenses and special teams while Brady mainly played with above average and often top 10 defenses and top 10 special teams.
 
JPRouve said:
First I like to disagree with Shapiro, even when it's not worth it. And I do like the idea of a conversation around who is the best player, now I'm not convinced by the QB importance argument that doesn't make a player better, take Baseball as an example, there is nothing more important than your top pitcher and his catcher, yet no one thinks that the best MLB player is someone else than Mike Trout, a mere center fielder.

If I was to name the current best NFL player, I would say that it's Aaron Donald.
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The thing here though is that pitchers rotate whereas Mike Trout plays every game if healthy. So whereas on an individual gameday, any given LA Angels pitcher is more important than Mike Trout, we have that over the course of the season that Mike Trout is more important than each member of the pitching rotation. Aaron Donald may play every game but so too do Jared Goff and Matthew Stafford so the same argument cannot be applied in the NFL in quite the same way as in MLB.

And even forgetting for now the difficulties when it comes to quantifying performance, shouldn't any GOAT debate operate in a similar way to the MVP? I'd probably agree that Donald is the best player in the NFL in a vacuum but while QB is not the be all and end all, it still is the single-most significant position on the pitch. And when one position is more significant than all the rest, surely that takes precedence over who is the best player in a vacuum?
 
JPRouve said:
First I like to disagree with Shapiro, even when it's not worth it. And I do like the idea of a conversation around who is the best player, now I'm not convinced by the QB importance argument that doesn't make a player better, take Baseball as an example, there is nothing more important than your top pitcher and his catcher, yet no one thinks that the best MLB player is someone else than Mike Trout, a mere center fielder.

If I was to name the current best NFL player, I would say that it's Aaron Donald.
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That’s a different conversation, as a five tool outfielder plays every game unlike a pitcher and is no ‘mere’ outfielder (and I don’t know why you mentioned catcher). The best MLB players ever list will include plenty of pitchers regardless.

Donald doesn’t really change my argument here either, as a main reason he’s so great is because he can disrupt the QB - the most important position now. Mahomes and Donald are 1-2 in whatever order you want right now, but Donald will need a Von Miller type Super Bowl performance or two to get into the greatest player of all time discussion going forward.
 
Raoul said:
The eras can be a problem, but ultimately these debates are still going to happen in most sports, especially in the online social media worlds where people like to argue. Just look at the endless debates on the footy forums or even here in the Tennis threads. The best way to settle them is to come up with a rational set of metrics that allow people to merge quantitate and qualitative information to come up with a 90% solution.
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But then how do you come up with a rational set of metrics? It's possible in baseball as baseball can be reduced down to a battle between pitcher and batter with infielders and outfielders paling in significance. On the other hand, football is a sport of many moving parts. The statistical output of a QB is a function of their own performance but it is also a function of their OL's performance, their supporting cast's performance, the opposing DL's performance, the opposing LB's performance, the opposing secondary's performance, the play-calling and emphasis of the offense, the play-calling and emphasis of the defense, the weather, situational circumstances etc. Taking that altogether, it becomes extraordinarily difficult to disentangle QB output from QB performance, something which makes constructing a rational metric nigh-impossible.
 
Has Aaron Donald been better at his position than, say, Derrick Henry at his over the last two years? I'd say that's up for debate too, but no one is putting Henry in a current day top 5 NFL players probably.

Always hard to compare. Players play to win a ring though, and Brady has seven of them. It puts more weight into the conversation than completion percentage or other stats for me, even though it's a team game.
 
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