Why would Southgate leave months before a world cup with a team that has the quality to win it?
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In response to 1), agreed, but it's easy to keep possession in non dangerous parts of the pitch. How somebody like Rashford is going to be when he is pressed on the edge of the opposition box is a different thing. In congested areas we need some improvements.
Ten Hag or no Ten Hag, I'm glad most fans are finally coming to terms with Ole not being the solution long term. I don't know what Murtough & co do at the club but I hope it's moving some of the recruitment away from the manager's hands so we have continuation with the kind of players we buy.
Seriously, what would possibly make the United hierarchy consider Gareth Southgate?
In short its a negative germ to denote extreme difficulty. A round about way of implying something was fluked by the skin of the teeth
I hope it’s not true and I doubt it is. I’d much rather go for Luis Enrique who is by far the superior manager to Southgate.
Sorry but that seems rather strange. The definition and its negative implications don't suddenly change because a title was won instead
Excellent post. In his defence though I believe high end pros understand instantly a man with a solid plan and football understanding. that's how Sacchi easily won over the Ac Milan dressing room back in the day. Despite his previous humble coaching beginnings. I'll honestly be surprised if ETH struggled like De boer and Bosz did post Ajax.
Of course it does. Because for supposedly the biggest club in the world, spending over £150m a year on transfers, winning a league title is good. Finishing top four is not.
No? Maybe England has a different meaning to it or something but here it's used to denote "something that barely happened", the "fluked part", is implied by the context, not the word.
For me the most important criteria for hiring a manager is that we will still be able to maintain or even better the quality of recruitment we've had under Ole. We should always have a squad that is one good manager away from competing for major trophies. If a new coach was to come in here and get sacked in the next two years, he must leave the club with a squad that is still capable of competing for major titles.
So apart from a tactically astute coach we also need a manager that will work with the recruitment team who have proven to be able to build a squad that can compete for major trophies. Ten Hag and Zidane are the only two coaches that suit this criteria. There are a few other coaches too but either the club won't realistically consider them or they are already occupied with international management and won't be available till after WC
So apart from a tactically astute coach we also need a manager that will work with the recruitment team who have proven to be able to build a squad that can compete for major trophies. Ten Hag and Zidane are the only two coaches that suit this criteria. There are a few other coaches too but either the club won't realistically consider them or they are already occupied with international management and won't be available till after WC
Moyes, LVG, Jose, Ole and if next was Southgate. We are truly fecked.
Since SAF retire our football has been very dull and negative. Can we get a modern attacking manager?
This is not rocket science, couldn't Ed and the club top management make the right call for once?
Since SAF retire our football has been very dull and negative. Can we get a modern attacking manager?
This is not rocket science, couldn't Ed and the club top management make the right call for once?
They choose and have persisted with Ole so who the feck knows what the "United hierarchy" have on their minds?
I always felt that it was just as important for Man Utd to get a great DoF as a great manager. The reason why Ajax have done so well over the past years is not only because of ETH, but also because of his strong connection with Overmars. They are completely on the same line and form a strong unit internally but also for the outside world. This is why I can understand when some people question if ETH would be able to do it on his own at a different club and it's why I would rather see him at Bayern than at Barcelona for example. ETH always said in interviews that he and Overmars both have the same ideas on football and always decide together on signings and if one does not agree, then they simply don't sign the player. I think this has not always been the case at Man Utd (e.g. Van de Beek who I think Ole didn't really want). Hopefully things will be better at Man Utd under Murtough.
And although ETH-Overmars work well together, we too have made some questionable signings over the years (e.g. Labyad, Klaiber, Kristensen) albeit they were mostly not key signings, but so far they have nailed almost all the important ones (e.g. Tadic, Blind, Klaassen, Neres, Anthony, Martinez, Alvarez, Berghuis, etc.). Also, Overmars in general has been great at selling players and recuperating our misses on the transfer market. It's true that he did miss out on Van Dijk, but PSV, Feyenoord, and AZ also didn't go for him at that time. People saw the physical qualities, but had doubts if he could make the jump from Groningen to a top 3 side. And here they judge defenders very differently. Is he comfortable on the ball, composed, can he play out from the back, does he take initiative, step into the midfield? And at Ajax you normally always have more possession than the other team which makes these things even more important. It's why Blind can succeed at Ajax at CB or why we can now play with a CB duo of Martinez (1.75 cm) and Timber (1.79 cm) which works for our style but would be unthinkable in the EPL. It doesn't explain why they went for Vd Hoorn though which I also never understood. Btw, it was not Overmars who forget to register Haller. It was the team manager (ex-tennis pro Jan Siemerink) who forgot to tick the box next to Haller's name. A lot of fans still don't really rate the latter, but that's a different discussion
I think most UTD fans would not want Southgate but i think Man Utd board would have him down on their top 3 list. Possibly as their number 1 choice.
He has the best England squad we have amassed for years, he has been lucky in that sense.
He certainly didnt inspire when managing at Club Level for Boro, so other than a nice guy what does he offer?
We should be looking at a manager who can inspire their teams, managers with personality and passion , one who's teams play great football, one who can handle big players and is not afraid to make tough decisions..AND one who doesnt have massive ego and is likely to fall out with people.... who fits this bill, well Naigelsman at Munich, Klopp at Liverpool, Guardiola at City......poss Tuchel although i think he is a bit of a pr1ck ! None are available, so who next......?
The next 3 on the list for me are Pochettino, Luis Enrique and Ten Haag who dont tick all of the above boxes but ones who could do well here playing attacking football.
He has the best England squad we have amassed for years, he has been lucky in that sense.
He certainly didnt inspire when managing at Club Level for Boro, so other than a nice guy what does he offer?
We should be looking at a manager who can inspire their teams, managers with personality and passion , one who's teams play great football, one who can handle big players and is not afraid to make tough decisions..AND one who doesnt have massive ego and is likely to fall out with people.... who fits this bill, well Naigelsman at Munich, Klopp at Liverpool, Guardiola at City......poss Tuchel although i think he is a bit of a pr1ck ! None are available, so who next......?
The next 3 on the list for me are Pochettino, Luis Enrique and Ten Haag who dont tick all of the above boxes but ones who could do well here playing attacking football.
I definitely agree with you that he does not qualify for C and D, but then again it's never going to be a sure bet when you sign a manager who's never worked in the EPL before. Btw, I think D is very dependant on the conviction of the board/DoF. It would not be a reason for me to not sign a manager because some pundits would criticise him. ETH also had a lot of people including own fans who didn't fancy him and I remember a lot of fans already wanting him gone when we lost to PSV away 0-3 in his first months, but it takes time to build a good team and Overmars stuck by him and it proved to be a great decision over the long run. Potter would definitely be more experienced than him with regards to the EPL, but then you could also say that he has never managed a team in the top flight or in the CL so with most candidates there's going to be something that's missing on their CV.
Southgate won’t be our next manager. Pundits will surely make that link with us and say ‘Gareth’ has done amazingly well with England and he should be our top target, even though the reality is he benefits from an amazing squad that he doesn’t know how to get the best out of.
Plus as a cynical reason, Southgate isn’t Utd alumni so I don’t think he’d be taken to heart by Utd fans like Solskjaer was and the board knows that. We’ve also got a good squad now and don’t need picking up when we’re feeling down, so we need to aim for people like ETH, Zidane, Conte etc. The club structure is more defined now than back in 2018 where it felt like Jose and Woodward were the double act… now it feels more modernised than it was. I’ve always wondered whether our antequated structure fecked us in the past when going for managers.
It’s conceivable that beyond the Disneyland pitch that Klopp didn’t like that we lacked the modern stuff we see at our European peers like a data analysis team and a footballing board structure back then. He probably thought Utd wanted him to fill that SAF shaped hole which no one else could have done and thought ‘feck that’
Plus as a cynical reason, Southgate isn’t Utd alumni so I don’t think he’d be taken to heart by Utd fans like Solskjaer was and the board knows that. We’ve also got a good squad now and don’t need picking up when we’re feeling down, so we need to aim for people like ETH, Zidane, Conte etc. The club structure is more defined now than back in 2018 where it felt like Jose and Woodward were the double act… now it feels more modernised than it was. I’ve always wondered whether our antequated structure fecked us in the past when going for managers.
It’s conceivable that beyond the Disneyland pitch that Klopp didn’t like that we lacked the modern stuff we see at our European peers like a data analysis team and a footballing board structure back then. He probably thought Utd wanted him to fill that SAF shaped hole which no one else could have done and thought ‘feck that’
If Southgate ever was seriously linked whilst we were in the stages of hiring a new manager I would hope there'd be a similar reaction from United fans as Spurs fans when they were linked with Gattuso.
fair enough
the gareth southgate links are laughable. There is no chance our board will even look at him. Ole got a look in because he was a former player, club legend and ex reserves coach. I don't expect any other manager without a cv to get such a cheat code
Woodward sold our commercial power instead of our heart as a club. Klopp was right to not be impressed
Ajax is a very different club to Manchester United. The fact that it tends to be a stepping stone for players and managers allows people associated to Ajax (managers, players etc) to leave the nest relatively early in their career, experience different managerial and football styles only to return, with bags of experience and a rather detached view of how a club should be run. Take for example VDS. He played in 3 different leagues and was managed by the likes of LVG, Ancelotti, Tigana, Coleman and SAF at club level. At national level he was managed by the likes of Hiddink, Advocat and Rijkaard.
United is quite insular. Most ex players had the same manager for nearly 30 years. They tend to have a very insular and rather extreme of what football is all about and how their club should play. This has an impact on fans as well.. The fact that most of these people had spent a big chunk of their career at United, they had bled for the club and had won a horde of trophies in the process tend to make them very difficult to criticize as opposed to a player who gave 3-4 years to the club and then feck off to richer pastures as a typical top quality Dutch league player would do to Ajax/PSV etc. Which is why so many people keep backing the likes of Ole and his coaching stuff even though its evident that its not good enough.
Therefore lets say we sign Ten Hag and rightly so he wants his own people as coaches. Lets now assume that the board is ready to heed his advice rather then tell him that he hasn't really won anything substantial to disrespect these legends that way. Now he's taking Ole job and he's made Carricky redundant. That's before the ball has been kicked. I assure you that all Ole-Carricky friends in the media will be on him like hawks especially if Ten Hag decides to start giving United a more continental look rather then stick on the British core Ole had been implementing in the past few years. At that point every mistake will be scrutinized and every bad result will be enough to rip the manager a new one etc. You only have to see the different weights and measures used to judge the likes of Kane and Henderson as opposed to Pogba and DDG. It would only be a matter of time before fans would listen to them and star turning the heat on.
id be very surprised if he made the mistake of moving to a big club and not retaining at least some of the staff that were there before him.
I have a friend whose father is connected with the Glazers. She knows them and their kids. They actually go to her father for advice on things for Tampa Bay Buccaneers. I can forward her advice from the caf to forward to her dad, and he can advise them further. I already mentioned that we need a better manager and to sign a defensive midfielder. What else can be added?
Yes.
Bingo.
Exactly.
United should've looked on the transition from SAF to...not-SAF as a transition from Model A (where the manager was the alpha and the omega) to Model B (where a completely different structure should have emerged).
As it turned out, we did something incredibly stupid instead. We tried to replace the ultimate alpha and omega man with a number of vastly inferior substitutes.
Looks like you have some personal issues with Ten Hag because this is a whole lot of overthinking
There is absolutely nothing to indicate this is true. This is just wild speculation
Regarding the Sebastien Haller error, Ten Hag was quoted as saying “In the first instance [the technical director] Marc Overmars and I are responsible. Of course, people make mistakes, but this is a top sports organisation. This mistake should never have happened. Haller is of course also very disappointed. Although he also understands that this was not done on purpose.”I always felt that it was just as important for Man Utd to get a great DoF as a great manager. The reason why Ajax have done so well over the past years is not only because of ETH, but also because of his strong connection with Overmars. They are completely on the same line and form a strong unit internally but also for the outside world. This is why I can understand when some people question if ETH would be able to do it on his own at a different club and it's why I would rather see him at Bayern than at Barcelona for example. ETH always said in interviews that he and Overmars both have the same ideas on football and always decide together on signings and if one does not agree, then they simply don't sign the player. I think this has not always been the case at Man Utd (e.g. Van de Beek who I think Ole didn't really want). Hopefully things will be better at Man Utd under Murtough.
And although ETH-Overmars work well together, we too have made some questionable signings over the years (e.g. Labyad, Klaiber, Kristensen) albeit they were mostly not key signings, but so far they have nailed almost all the important ones (e.g. Tadic, Blind, Klaassen, Neres, Anthony, Martinez, Alvarez, Berghuis, etc.). Also, Overmars in general has been great at selling players and recuperating our misses on the transfer market. It's true that he did miss out on Van Dijk, but PSV, Feyenoord, and AZ also didn't go for him at that time. People saw the physical qualities, but had doubts if he could make the jump from Groningen to a top 3 side. And here they judge defenders very differently. Is he comfortable on the ball, composed, can he play out from the back, does he take initiative, step into the midfield? And at Ajax you normally always have more possession than the other team which makes these things even more important. It's why Blind can succeed at Ajax at CB or why we can now play with a CB duo of Martinez (1.75 cm) and Timber (1.79 cm) which works for our style but would be unthinkable in the EPL. It doesn't explain why they went for Vd Hoorn though which I also never understood. Btw, it was not Overmars who forget to register Haller. It was the team manager (ex-tennis pro Jan Siemerink) who forgot to tick the box next to Haller's name. A lot of fans still don't really rate the latter, but that's a different discussion
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...rd-signing-sebastien-haller-for-europa-league
And regarding Virgil Van Dijk, I agree it was a collective failing at Ajax, Feyenoord and PSV. But it was made to look worse for Overmars due to the signing of Van de Hoorn and the comments of the Groningen Sporting director, who said that he approached Overmars on several occassions on the behalf of the player, who wanted to join Ajax but Overmars had no interest and instead had ear marked Van de Hoorn as a target instead. Now I'm not criticizing Overmars here because I completely understand mistakes happen and will happen. The reason I pointed the above out was because had the same happened at United with us failing to register our record signing for European competition and failing to sign a CB (who would go on to be the best in the world in his position) who was itching to join the club. Then the criticism on here would be off the charts as they say.
I do agree that there has to be a streamlined approached to recruitment. That's why it's for the best we allow the recruitment department to select the head coach who will come in to work with them. Michael Edwards at Liverpool was a laughing stock among Liverpool fans prior to the arrival of Klopp. According to reports from the Liverpool based media, Brendan Rodgers and Liverpool's recruitment department didn't see eye to eye when it came to recruitment. Rodgers was eventually fired and Klopp arrived and immediately embraced Edwards and his team and relied on their data driven approach which gave Edwards and his team the power to shape a recruitment plan that catered for Klopp's attacking brand of football which would culminate in the club winning both the league and Champions League. And had we brought in Michael Edwards to United, many of our fans would've been up in arms IMO and would've wrote him off before giving him a chance. It's what a number of Liverpool fans did.
I believe the strength of a club when it comes to the footballing department should be judged by the team and not a individual only. So the recruitment department as a whole should be looked at to form a opinion. For example, Luis Campos has said many times, that it's not just him, but the team working with him that has been the key to his success. Ralf Rangnick is also someone that relies on several people that have helped him achieve success at clubs where the job was to help make the next step in the footballing pyramid.
There's no question we have the experience and diversity in our recruitment department to take advantage of the different markets around the world. We have experienced men working as heads of department who have extensive experience of working in European football and for some of the most decorated coaches/clubs in the world. But what I don't believe we have is a manager/head coach who I believe has the ability or know how, on how best to take advantage of such a recruitment structure which started taking shape in around 2017. The site 'Training ground guru' have guests on their podcasts who work at top clubs around Europe from United, City, Liverpool etc to Roma, and a few German top flight clubs. And according to them, Man Utd's line up of scouts, was one of the most impressive line ups they'd reviewed.
I'm personally hoping we either go for Luis Enrique or Ten Hag. I can't say if they would succeed but if they did succeed, then the football would be fantastic and they'd leave a coaching imprint at the club which would run deep throughout the club IMO.
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Well, when ETH came to us he brought Alfred Schreuder (currently assistant manager at Barca) with him as his second man who was seen by many as the tactical mastermind and someone who was important as connection between the squad and ETH as he was good with the players (e.g. someone like Ziyech who was considered a difficult personality loved him). Currently, his assistants include people like Michael Reiziger, Richard Witschge, Winston Bogarde, and also Christian Poulsen before he left ... ALL ex-players from Ajax. And I also remember a funny story when ETH was linked with Spurs, so I don't think that Carrick would necessarily have to fear for his job if Man Utd would ever want to sign ETH if the following was true
Valentijn Driessen, chief football writer for the Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf has claimed that Tottenham were left surprised during their discussions with Ten Hag after he allegedly revealed that he had no plans to bring any of his current backroom staff with him to North London.
Driessen said as quoted by Voetbal Zone: “Which they found very strange at Spurs , and we think it is very normal in the Netherlands that if you get a trainer you only get one trainer, but with the English you get a whole staff: a physiotherapist, doctor, assistant trainer, goalkeeper coach.
“You just enter there with a whole group. So they also asked him: who are you taking with you? Yes, nobody. They don’t know that there. He wanted Sjors Ultee, that name had also been mentioned. But you normally go there with a whole group.”
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Yep, I totally agree that in the end it's the responsibility of the whole technical staff when a player is not registered. It should have been checked and double checked and something went wrong which should not be blamed on just one individual person.
Going for Van der Hoorn instead of Virgil is indeed one of the big mistakes under Overmars but that's of course in hindsight. We had an internal rapport come out later about that specific period which showed that some people did not rate Virgil at the club with Frank de Boer preferring Van der Hoorn with Overmars backing the manager, while Dennis Bergkamp and Wim Jonk at that time opted for Van Dijk both with whom Overmars was in conflict and they both later left the club as well in an unamicable way. The whole first period under Overmars was a bit of mess when it came to transfers as we had to keep a tight hand on the finances and chose to go on the cheap route signing players like Zimling, Sana or Sanogo. Only in the last years things have turned around completely when they decided to invest the money on the pitch instead of keeping it on the bank. But Virgil was not only overlooked at Groningen, but also at Celtic where he was playing very well with no big club coming in for him. It took a Dutch manager in Ronald Koeman who knew him to finally get his move to the EPL and "only" to Southampton as well.
Totally agree with the other points you made. I think ideally everything from recruitment to technical staff should be aligned with the DoF overseeing this process. For example, people always say that Pep wins because he can get who he wants, but I think him having someone like Txiki is absolute key. Also agree with you that Luis Enrique would be an interesting choice. He already worked in Italy and Spain and I'd be curious to see what he could do in the EPL.
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Well if your only interpretation of the word competitive is trophies without paying any attention to the context, then its quite obvious that you have decided that Ole is the wrong choice based on your own emotions rather than facts. Its like you are waiting for him to fail terribly so that you can use the word "I told you so".
Even if Ole were to win trophies this season, i highly doubt you will be happy as your ego of making sure Ole fails, will not let you enjoy the club's achievements. Its useless to put forward any argument if all of you refuse to review how Ole has made the squad competitive.
I think he’s just using this thing called common sense.
Imagine someone trying to convince you Ian Dowe is better than Andy Cole.
Look at lineups from two years ago, and the mental state of the club. Now look at our bench, and how focused the club is, then look at results achived given the car crash Mourinho left.
Of course we want things to go faster. But, we where also top of the league in january last season. You dont win things normaly out of nowhere.
Zidane?
Because it will be an entirely "safe" and predictable appointment, Southgate & Pochettino both fit that billing, for an appointment made without a great deal of insight from the board.
Thiago Messi?
Common sense can only be applied for obvious situations. If you think winning a trophy is only determined by the manager, then there is nothing else I can say regarding this.
Like I said, your lot have already decided that Ole is the wrong choice right from the start and based on your own emotions. It does not matter if he gets a trophy or not, nothing will change your opinion since you are fixated on Ole being sacked at all costs.
You said we have been very competitive under Ole's care. What do you think competitive means if not competing for trophies? Especially relative to pre-Ole given we were already "competetive" for top four and the EL during Mourinho's time. What else have we been doing very competitively?
It's absolutely fine to say that winning major trophies wasn't a realistic expectation under Ole thus far. But then making us "very competetive" is an odd thing to praise him for as opposed to, say, rebuilding the squad or whatever.
I was watching replays of Tottenham Vs Arsenal and I was wondering how wonderful it would be to see Wenger coaching the England national team.
Making that Arsenal team look really fluid, players like Chamackh play above their level.
Then I thought just out of interest- to the people who so badly want Ole out - if the only option was Wenger in, would you take it as a way of getting Ole out?
Making that Arsenal team look really fluid, players like Chamackh play above their level.
Then I thought just out of interest- to the people who so badly want Ole out - if the only option was Wenger in, would you take it as a way of getting Ole out?
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