That team he had at that point was pretty damn good. They weren't quite the underdogs as made out.
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That team he had at that point was pretty damn good. They weren't quite the underdogs as made out.
We literally confirmed our CL qualification on very last day in Ole's first season as Permanent manager if it's not scraping then I don't know what it is and last season we were comfortably in top 4 but were hardly ever in title race .
Its my opinion that Solskjaer is just an average manager and no amount great players can compensate for that and it would be best for all the parties involved if change is made early as we still have all to play for , under Ole we would only meander along without actually competing for anything major. But having said all that Hopefully Ole would prove his doubters wrong this season.
This is what I fear, and because of the individual quality in our squad, we're going to stumble our way into the top 4, which will be despite Ole, not because of him.
Does ten Haag play with out and out wingers or inside forwards? I think a reason the park the bus or “low block” (hate that term) tactics work so well is a lack of natural width in a lot of modern teams.
funnily enough, SAF’s teams from the 90’s would probably have no problem breaking down those kind of tactics due to genuine width and marauding fullbacks who overlap and get to the byline.
I think that way of thinking from the board has always been there, finish in the top 4 to get CL qualification is all they care about. Top that off with the squad we have now and you're right we should be finishing in the top 4 this season instead out of it.
Having said that the board has gotten the players Ole wanted this season so maybe just maybe they want a better finish in the league on their return. I however doubt it.
My word its stupid season again,
so my vote goes to Cristiano Ronaldo
so my vote goes to Cristiano Ronaldo
Steve Bruce is the obvious choice.
Agree. though fairer to say it has little to do with Ole one way or the other.
There is to my mind a danger we could miss top four if we don't get in a really decent DM in January. Chelsea City and Liverpool all look strong so it only takes one other to emerge to leave us out. Everyone now knows we are butter soft on the break and it will be exploited week in week out till it's fixed.
Neres and Ziyech spring to mind. Antnony in hsic urrents die I believe is a pure winger
Natural width can be accrued either with the right tactics or the right players. Ten Haag's preferred tactics which are of the Cruyff school produces natural width both with wingers and inside forwards thus its unlikely he'd ever struggle vs a low block often.
We didn't finish 4th. 4th palce sis what would count as scrapping. Out it this way: If finishing 3rd on the last day counts as 'scrapping' Then any league title won on the last day counts as "scrapping" to the title.
Bolded bit is 100% true. Yet we are talking about scraping the top 4. Not a title race
That's fine. I respect your views on him. I just don't see any good reason for people make claims like we might scrape top 4. When we haven't done so twice in a row with vastly inferior resources whilst almost all our top 4 rivals war all far better equipped than us. Both on pitch (all 4) and on the bench (4 when Lampard was sacked).
Personally I'm convinced nothing else but a 5-3 point gap between him and the champion (if he isn't the epl champion) and losing the title race on the last day, will save his job beyond this season. Assuming he fails to win any cups too
Not a very good video with regards to what Ten Hag is doing nowadays. He plays in a 3-1-5-1 in possession with a lot of interchanging.
We did scrape top four the season Bruno signed. After we conceded late against Southampton to make it 2-2 a lot of people were rightfully worried we might not make it.
Had we lost against Leicester we would have been out of top four so would consider that just scraping by and about the bolded part that's exactly was my point when other poster Said Glazers would be happy to continue with Ole as long as we make top 4 .
I certainly believe nothing short of genuine title would save Ole's job unless we by some miracle win CL this season which is highly unlikely but still is more plausible than success in the league which requires consistency , which unfortunately isn't our Strong Suit under Solskjaer .
We did scrape it and winning the title on the last day would also be scraping the title.
So let me get this straight. Every time Fergie and others won the epl title on the last day. They basically scrapped to it and were undeserving winners?
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People should be very careful about what they wish for. There is a much greater risk to change now, than to keep faith and keep building. We are heading pretty much in the right direction all things considerd. No one can argue that. Could it be heading there faster and better? Absolutly. But if this was simple and straight forward, tell me why Moyes, van Gaal and Sadmotherføkker could not keep this club focused?
Now we have Rashford back, Sancho is getting there and our back four is getting back on track. Ronaldo and Cavani is good to go, Greenwood is allready there.
Support the team and keep focus. It’s better than this.
Now we have Rashford back, Sancho is getting there and our back four is getting back on track. Ronaldo and Cavani is good to go, Greenwood is allready there.
Support the team and keep focus. It’s better than this.
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Scraping doesn't imply it wasn't deserved, it implies it was close to not happening.
Most interesting aspect of ETH for me is his tactical versatility and yet his teams look to play the same way no matter the formation. Has to be said for Potter as well. They are both capable of getting their ideas across no matter the formation which allows them to get the best out of players with different qualities.
There's no point signing a new manager unless he brings along his entire coaching staff as well.
Ole's doing a decent job as United's Ceremonial Head of State. His man management, substitutions and general squad building have all been fantastic. It's the Parliament under him that could do with a revolution. The easiest route to fixing United is to hire some different coaches. Though maybe a new coaching approach could do the trick instead.
In particular, we keep getting caught out of shape during attack-to-defence transitions and when opposition midfielders dribble directly at Fred/Maguire. Fix those two things and we'll be 85% of the way there. The remaining 15% is just little tweaks and our new signings bedding in.
Ole's doing a decent job as United's Ceremonial Head of State. His man management, substitutions and general squad building have all been fantastic. It's the Parliament under him that could do with a revolution. The easiest route to fixing United is to hire some different coaches. Though maybe a new coaching approach could do the trick instead.
In particular, we keep getting caught out of shape during attack-to-defence transitions and when opposition midfielders dribble directly at Fred/Maguire. Fix those two things and we'll be 85% of the way there. The remaining 15% is just little tweaks and our new signings bedding in.
Interesting take that the coaches are the main source of problems. I don't entirely disagree but he'll never get rid. He'll "go down with the ship."
I for one am hoping that if he had a real DM we'd never see the McFred combo meal again.
Yes they all count as scraping as well. But it has no negative connotation when it's describing a title win.
Scraping to a league title is fecking wonderful. Probably the best way to win a title.
Scraping into the top four on the last day isn't impressive or valiant, unless we're on the level of West Ham or Wolves. It's just depressing.
Ajax fan here. This is factually not correct. Ten Hag took over from our previous manager Marcel Keizer halfway through the 2017/2018 season after our elimination in the Dutch cup. We had already failed to even qualify (!) for both the CL and Europe League months earlier under Keizer. Ten Hag had a tough second half of the season when he took over, but we actually managed to qualify under him on his first try the next summer when we got through all 3 CL qualifying rounds - which we had not done for many years prior - and then made that fairytale run in the CL.
I definitely agree that (especially) Real Madrid and Juventus were not the best that season, but you still have to play, and more importantly, beat what's in front of you and although we can play along nicely for a while with the big boys, we normally don't beat them over two legs and especially not in the manner that we did. Bar the team we had under Peter Bosz with whom we reached the EL final in 16/17, as much as a fan that I am I believe we would never have qualified or even come close to playing the way we did against even those Real Madrid or Juventus teams (I lost so much money on waging against us that season ugh) with the previous Ajax teams and THAT's exactly the difference between what Ten Hag (and Bosz) has achieved and what someone like De Boer or Jol has done.
I was initially a big sceptic when we got Ten Hag from Utrecht for the same reasons you doubt him. Did not really know the guy, only experience with a mid table team like FC Utrecht, little charisma, and seemed unremarkable. Just another uninspiring appointment from our DoF Overmars who is friends with him, but Overmars put a lot of faith in him and gave him the resources (we broke the wage and transfer ceiling in the 2018/2019 season which started when we signed Tadic and Blind) and Ten Hag proved him right on the pitch for which I give him a lot of credit. He got good players from the board, but he also executed and turned it into a good team. He plays attacking and dominant football, made us hard to beat, plays youngsters, and I also think he's a good people's manager while being much more comfortable in his presentation nowadays. Most of all, the players enjoy themselves on the pitch and it translates into results, not more that I can ask. Nowadays we can give any CL team a hard time while we seriously compete to make it past the CL group phase each season which I'd never expected a few years ago.
In my eyes he is therefore totally not comparable to Frank de Boer. In the years we played under Frank de Boer, we mostly played very very boring football. We won 4 league titles with him, but the football itself, the level of quality, and even the intention on the pitch is night and day. Very workmanship-like football with no joy on the pitch. Decent and unspectacular. If you look at the stats we scored 93, 83, 69, 81, 79 goals under Frank de Boer in his full seasons at Ajax. Under Ten Hag we scored 119 and 102 goals and we currently already have 30 after 8 games which is almost unprecedented even in the history of our "farmer" league. With Ten Hag we are dominant in the way that we should be given our huge budget compared to the other teams in the Eredivisie which is not a given if you look at history.
All in all, I personally hope that he will succeed wherever he goes to next. I do agree with your point that he has a very good structure around him and that he would not necessarily have that somewhere else so he has a lot to prove. Also he's still a bit of an unknown (most people can't even spell his name correctly) so would someone like Pogba respect a peasant like him from the farmers league who speaks English with a funny accent? Who knows. I'd be curious to see how he'd do in a bigger league and I can see a club like Bayern Munich go for him in an ideal situation should they look for a new one.
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People need to realize that the effectiveness of tactics depends on the type of players we have. The tactics that ETH uses is suitable for players schooled in total football or players who are very intelligent in their on and off the ball movement.
If ETH comes here, he will have a big problem as most of the players here are more direct and incisive with their key skillset targeted at exploiting spaces rather than creating spaces. Only 4 players fit the total football profile that ETH needs, which are Sancho, Van De Beek, Matic and Mata. In the end, it will be another rebuild where he needs to purchase players to fit his preferred tactic. Coaching the players also depends on their attributes as intelligence is something that cannot be taught. Trying to coach Pogba, Fernandes, Rashford, McTominay, Martial or Fred to be more positionally and risk aware can be a near impossible task since their nature is quite individualistic. Disastrous indeed.
OTOH, Solskjaer has managed to create a flexible tactical system (4-3-2-1, 3-4-1-2, 4-1-2-1 etc) that fits the profile of his squad. This is why Manchester United have been very competitive under his care. It is a bit sad that the fans dont realize that Manchester United look like a quality squad because of Solskjaer rather than inspite of him.
Is "scraping" a pejorative? I think it's more interesting when it comes down to the final day as opposed to winning the title with several games in hand.
The competitive bit doesn't add up. We have won nothing. Not even a minor trophy.
Bit of an overly simplistic way of looking at it and conveniently brushes Ole's shortcomings under the carpet. At the end of the day the manager is responsible for results and performances, that's all that matters. That has always been the case at every club.
I've never known it before where the supporters try to blame the coaching staff instead of the manager.
Well said it's manager who sets the tone how we play wasn't McKenna getting rave reviews for his coaching our youngsters, some of our supporters are just plain deluded they could even blame tea lady at Carrington before they admit Solskjaer is just isn't good enough.
My biggest worry is the board replace Ole with Southgate. That would be an absolute disaster and we would be back to being served up the same brand of football.
Ole will be gone by the end of the season, for that I’m sure. But Southgate can’t be the man to come in.
Ole will be gone by the end of the season, for that I’m sure. But Southgate can’t be the man to come in.
You never know with this board they could do that, I think Southgate has his contract up for renewal soon so maybe in the future if Ole goes they could get him in. I agree he can't be the next manager he plays boring football and doesn't know how to make the mosty of the squad.
Thank you for that informative post. Appreciate the caveats to his success regarding the surrounding structure. Also agree Bayern might be a natural step for him. They do take make such brave decisions. Although that might mean Nagelsman is available.
Fantastic post.
I do like Ten Hag but everything I've seen of him suggests he's a possession based manager. I wonder how he would fit our players into that, most of whom have been brought in to play in a very direct style. Do the likes of Maguire, McTominay, AWB, Pogba, Rashford etc have what it takes to play that quick passing style. They're players who like to get the ball out of their feet and run with it.
As I said I am sure that Ten Hag has potential. What I do debate is whether he's ready to move to a big club and SPECIFICALLY whether he can move to this club. Manchester United is a poorly run club with a board that has no idea about football. That means its inconsistent (they might totally support the manager this year and suddenly stop financially support him the next year) and it puts the manager into alot of pressure to perform in areas that he shouldn't even be messing in the first place. To make matters worse United had slowly but surely became a mate's club. The likes of Carricky, Mckennicky, Phelany, Murtoughy and Fletchery won't like seeing Ole losing the wheel, not to forget the first team which is basically Ole's team. The new manager would probably find himself being pressured from upstairs (Murtoughy, SAF) from within and from the outside (pundits like Rio, Gaz, Scholesky etc) by people who think that United is basically theirs.
I also under the impression that Dutch managers are stuck to their own ways and their own system. You have to look at the transfers of LVG, Koeman and De Boer who always tend to be strongly tinged with Dutch players. That wouldn't be an issue if the Dutch league is producing the likes of Rijkaard, Gullit and Van Basten or if the EPL is playing a very similar system to the Dutch league. Unfortunately its not the case on both case. Coupled to the fact that Ole had made sure to build a mate's club even at squad level then bringing in a Dutch contingency to challenge it might lead to some serious friction.
So in my opinion we should go for someone who is
a- tactically better then Ole (that's hardly a difficult task)
b- he plays with a similar system to his (4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1)
c- he's a manager who had previously worked in the EPL and understand the EPL well
d- whose got a certain reputation in the EPL, enough to be given some honeymoon period to make the much needed changes United need.
Ten Hag qualified in A and B but he lacks C and D
In my opinion we should be looking at the likes of Mancini or Zidane (he lacks C but our strong French contingency will protect him), people with enough reputation to go to the board and tell them that he doesn't want to work with coaches who had been part of two failed administrations. If United want an upstart with great potential then I'd rather see us sign Potter rather then Ten Hag. Don't take me wrong, the latter probably have a higher ceiling in terms of potential. However Potter is British, he knows the EPL and he will receive far less slack then Ten Hag would. The very fact that he might end up managing England in the future would make the Nevilles and co choose their words wisely when criticizing him
I mean he's doing it with Klaassen and Haller too, both PL flops. It's just down to coaching IMO. Pogba can do everything Gravenberch does, but better. McTominay isn't so different from Alvarez, etc. For a top team I don't think there's getting away from possession based football.
It's gone beyond a joke now really the mental gymnastics and moving of goalposts to defend Ole. I admit, some probably go overboard when criticising him, but criticism is allowed. These that try and twist and turn their way through a debate to defend him are not even worth listening to anymore.
Ole is so young, the next manager won't come before 2046. Discussion too early.
There's some absolutely ignorant posters on this forum but thankfully they're in the minority. I'd just like to say that anyone who thinks the likes of Murtough and McKenna got jobs at United because they're mates with Solskjaer is talking out of their back side.
If someone like Ten Hag was to arrive at United he would have a advantage over LVG, because unlike LVG, he would be working with a recruitment department that didn't exist at the time LVG was appointment. Ten Hag doesn't need to worry about the board but rather he will be working with the likes of Murtough, Bout and the rest of the football department. Ten Hag at Ajax doesn't deal with the Ajax board but rather their recruitment department which is headed by Marc Overmars. And it's the same Overmars who decided not to sign Virgil Van Dijk from Groningen after the Groningen Sporting Director asked him directly twice to make a bid but Overmars instead chose to sign Mike Van der Hoorn. It's also the same Overmars who forgot to register record signing Sebastian Haller for European competition. Can you imagine if our guys did this?
Also I find it extremely disrespectful towards the Dutch for anyone to say the likes of Koeman and De Boer are the same as Ten Hag because they're all Dutch. Ten Hag has a different concept of playing the game which is similar to Guardiola and Luis Enrique who are Spanish, than the likes of Koeman and De Boer.
If someone like Ten Hag was to arrive at United he would have a advantage over LVG, because unlike LVG, he would be working with a recruitment department that didn't exist at the time LVG was appointment. Ten Hag doesn't need to worry about the board but rather he will be working with the likes of Murtough, Bout and the rest of the football department. Ten Hag at Ajax doesn't deal with the Ajax board but rather their recruitment department which is headed by Marc Overmars. And it's the same Overmars who decided not to sign Virgil Van Dijk from Groningen after the Groningen Sporting Director asked him directly twice to make a bid but Overmars instead chose to sign Mike Van der Hoorn. It's also the same Overmars who forgot to register record signing Sebastian Haller for European competition. Can you imagine if our guys did this?
Also I find it extremely disrespectful towards the Dutch for anyone to say the likes of Koeman and De Boer are the same as Ten Hag because they're all Dutch. Ten Hag has a different concept of playing the game which is similar to Guardiola and Luis Enrique who are Spanish, than the likes of Koeman and De Boer.
If that happened I would be absolutely done with football entirely.
There are far too many jokes, whispers and little mentions here and there about Southgate being our next manager, especially with there being uncertainty regarding him extending on as England manager.
That really scares me, because I genuinely believe our board are the only board (among the top clubs) stupid enough to actually hire Southgate. I really can imagine them doing that.
I would probably pack it in as well. Give me an amalgamation of all the worst aspects of Jose, Moyes, Vangle and Ole before you give me Sir Gareth.
Two points I'd make:
1) In the league so far this season we're second only to City in terms of possession. Last season less so, though still only the other three PL contenders and Leeds ahead of us. Ditto the season before that (with Leicester instead of Leeds) And I would think those season's possession stats are skewed by the very conservative way we approached big games, which wasn't reflective of how we play the majority of the time. Because if you are a top team then you will almost by default dominate possession in most of your games. We're not particularly good in possession, but then that's partly why we're speculating about getting a new manager. Whoever we hire would have to make us better in that regard.
2) We weren't particularly well suited to possession football when LVG arrived, but he quickly got us playing his brand of possession football nonetheless. Now his particular brand of possession football happens to be different to Ten Hag's in that it is so terrible I'd rather stab my eyes out than watch another season of it, and a lot of the signings made under him were awful on top of that, but the point is that you don't have to be obviously well suited to possession football to adapt to being coached that way. Hell, that was the best time of Mike Smalling's career with us and (given his limitations on the ball) he's the antithesis of the sort of CB you'd think would do well in a possession-based team. Coaching can do wonders, even if you're being coached to play tedious, joyless football.
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