I would prefer T. Hag, but I feel if Carrick and the boys do take a defeat today, they will push for Poch and it will be quick.
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I meant it's is unbalanced as in 1 vs 19, not all over the table. What's the wage structure like in PSG compared to the rest of the league? My whole point was just to show how big the gap is between PSG and the rest of the league, when it comes to budgets, value, quality of the squads and based on recent merits in Europe. They have a world class squad, built with sports washed Qatary oil-money, and should win Ligue 1 with a comfortable margin every year.
My original point was that I don't think Poch is the man for us, he has very little to show for in his managing career, and there is nothing on his CV suggesting that he will finally start winning trophies with us.
He is balanced and has always been it was also the case for Southampton who conceded the 7th amount of goals and scored the 8th highest amount. And Tottenham were particularly balanced, their game was based on regaining possession quickly which had two consequences an excellent defensive record and counter attacking opportunities from the opposition half. IIRC for a while they were the team that regained possession the highest on average.
Yeah if we win tonight and Atalanta fail to win we would be through (guaranteed top too if it goes on head to head in the case of tied points) but if we lose then it comes down to winning the final game and hoping for a draw or win for Villareal in their final game. That would be too big a game to trust to Carrick!
There's only so much one man can do. That we seemingly needed a manager who was in charge since the 80s to modernize the club as opposed to the executives, says it all.
He's not that attacking a coach. More balanced and functional than people think.
Get it done. That’s feck all really, didn’t Leicester pay similar to get Rodgers from Celtic?
If we lose tonight it could potentially risk us getting poch in early as he won’t want to leave PSG and champions league football to join a team who could be out of the competition surely? Also a loss tonight will push the board to act and get someone in a lot quicker… but if we win they’ll probably delay it a bit longer.
What is Poch's style? Unfortunately due to my progressing years I have a very poor recollection of how his spurs side played, and I don't even remember him managing southampton!
This is how I feel too. Just get Poch because there is now way the powers that be can make a bold move like Ten Hag (or maybe even convince him). I like Poch but would rather we take a big chance and go all out for Ten Hag.
What league has the 19th remotely close from the 1st? And why would you think that West Bromwich who totalled 26 points last year are closer to City then Nimes who totalled 35 points last years were to Lille?
Listening some podcast from PSG talk atm. It's from November 19th and they are analyzing Leipzig and Bordeaux matches with Poch being criticised a lot and critics being scary similiar...
Inability to beat the press, not playing as a team, no patterns of play, moments of individual brilliance, constantly playing on the back foot and not taking the game to the opponent, lack of identity etc.
Inability to beat the press, not playing as a team, no patterns of play, moments of individual brilliance, constantly playing on the back foot and not taking the game to the opponent, lack of identity etc.
His work at Southampton was unreal. I will never forget When he can to OT with Southampton and played UTD off the park. (These were they days when Utd were the top dogs). Even though UTD won 2-1, Fergie said after the game it’s one of the best away performance he’s ever seen at OT.
That is certainly a concern!
That would be a major surprise considering how good Southampton and Spurs both looked under him the majority of the time.
What makes Poch not attacking? Would you class Pep's style attacking? Klopps?
It's PSG tbf and even Tuchel had a lot of problems there, so I doubt it is all down to Pochettino.
One thing is certain, they are not convinced with him at all and don't think they would shed a tear if he leaves now.
No, they are all balanced. Attacking would be Zeman, the young version of Gasperini or Bosz. The likes of Klopp, Guardiola and Pochettino base their systems and philosophies on how they regain possession and how they prevent opposition from creating chances that's the fundation of everything.
I think the front three, especially Neymar dont want to work.
So the attacker that works the most doesn't want to work?
Yeah, the question is how much is that due to Poch vs how much interference from the owners and Leonardo? He's probably forced to play big players regardless of form and possibly told not to take them off. Don't want to make excuses but as far as I recall, he never played like that at Spurs.
I cant see it. Imagine doing that and 3 years time we have the same outcome. They are crap, but I dont think the Glazers will allow them to do it again.
Not sure what it is Rio has between the ears …but it must be very small
The issue is that he doesn't find a tune of the rest, the big players are the ones saving him. And as far as I can remember the owners have never imposed an off form player to anyone, it would be a first since 2012. They didn't even impose Ben Arfa who was known to be a dream of the owners.
I cant shake the feeling that in this scenario, Utd will go in with an offer of 8.1M and mess about for the next few months. This would be such a Woody move.
It sums up why he is unhappy there and willing to sacrifice the chance of winning his first league trophy to come here because some of those players are not his signings and those signings don’t suit to his style of play and philosophy. He is not the first PSG manager who is unhappy with how PSG run.
Yes the fans hype up all our youth players to being the next co92, when in reality we have some poor ones comparitively. Tuanzebe will never be an elite CB and hes about 24 now. We got one playing for us McTom who shouldnt be anywhere near our midfield if we want to win the big trophies and hes 25 now.
In a match against Leipzig they didn't even have Messi. It ended 2-2, but it was 17-7 in shots to Leipzig and they were hanging in there by the look of things.
Personally, am not even that worried with individual brilliance remarks. Tuchel PSG often looked like relying on Neymar/Mbappe moments of quality upfront as well. But, inability to beat the press and constantly playing on the back foot criticism worries me. Sick of seeing us playing on the back foot. As you say, his Spurs team looked better (or more cohesive)... I guess, we will see.
McTominay would be a reasonable squad player in a good side. He certainly shouldn’t be one of the first names on the teamsheet like he has been granted, but he’s a good enough player to be around the squad.
Found that on Reddit from a Utrecht fan about Ten Hag and his time there before he joined Ajax. Thought it was an interesting read and also adds to my appreciation for him:
Seems like he was right that people will talk about Ten Hag in the future. He also did pretty well at Utrecht in his 2 seasons, played 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 and showed that he isn't one-dimensional in terms of his tactics.
He also was in charge of key decisions there, so all the "He needs that Ajax structure" comments might be wrong. Funnily he was compared to Pep when he was already there. He also proved now that he can make the step up to a title winning team.
For me everything about Ten Hag sounds very very exciting. The fact that he lost several key players like De Ligt, De Jong, Ziyech and van de Beek and just rebuild another strong Ajax side which looks great in Europe is the most impressive factor for me. You always have managers who do well with a golden generation here and there, look at Jardims Monaco with Mbappe, Bernardo Silva, Fabinho or Villas-Boas' Porto, but those couldn't do it again, while Ten Hag has Haller firing on all cylinders in the CL. For me that's a sign of a top manager.
If we could get him we should really go all out on him. Just so much stuff that's very similiar to the likes of Klopp, Tuchel, Nagelsmann before they landed their big jobs.
Pochettino right now wouldn't be bad either to be fair, even if I prefer Ten Hag. I don't think he has done all that well at PSG, but Tuchel struggled there too. I still rate him high, I just think he will be most likely a tier below the elite managers, while I think Ten Hag is one in the making and that's imo more than worth the "risk"
Seems like he was right that people will talk about Ten Hag in the future. He also did pretty well at Utrecht in his 2 seasons, played 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 and showed that he isn't one-dimensional in terms of his tactics.
He also was in charge of key decisions there, so all the "He needs that Ajax structure" comments might be wrong. Funnily he was compared to Pep when he was already there. He also proved now that he can make the step up to a title winning team.
For me everything about Ten Hag sounds very very exciting. The fact that he lost several key players like De Ligt, De Jong, Ziyech and van de Beek and just rebuild another strong Ajax side which looks great in Europe is the most impressive factor for me. You always have managers who do well with a golden generation here and there, look at Jardims Monaco with Mbappe, Bernardo Silva, Fabinho or Villas-Boas' Porto, but those couldn't do it again, while Ten Hag has Haller firing on all cylinders in the CL. For me that's a sign of a top manager.
If we could get him we should really go all out on him. Just so much stuff that's very similiar to the likes of Klopp, Tuchel, Nagelsmann before they landed their big jobs.
Pochettino right now wouldn't be bad either to be fair, even if I prefer Ten Hag. I don't think he has done all that well at PSG, but Tuchel struggled there too. I still rate him high, I just think he will be most likely a tier below the elite managers, while I think Ten Hag is one in the making and that's imo more than worth the "risk"
I think Tuchel and Poch both have the same problem at PSG, the front three are doing what they want and not really working as part of the team. Thus both Tuchel and Poch cannot implement any style.
Ideally though i would still go for Ten Hag first. Although Poch would be second.
I have said it before and will say again, the sooner we break away from past, SAF, class of 92 and look ahead the better it would be for the club. One of the reasons for Man Utd not succeeding is clinging to the past.
They don't have the same issues at all, Tuchel implemented a style as long as he had the players and he had a significantly more unbalanced team, for a while he lacked DMs and fullbacks, Pochettino has DMs and fullbacks. Tuchel did a far better job than Pochettino, the issue with Tuchel is that his relationship with Leonardo was poor after public conflicts over having more midfielders and a larger bench.
Playing style
All three of Pochettino’s former teams, Espanyol, Southampton and Spurs, were recognised as attack-minded during his time as their manager, and also for blending quick offensive transitions with positional play – attacking spaces (below) to generate movements and passing opportunities – without losing their defensive balance. Each could switch formations depending on the circumstances unfolding or the demands of a specific opponent – both while with and without possession.
As individual matches evolved and over the course of a season, Pochettino alternated between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 formations while attacking, and a 4-4-2 and 4-1-4-1 when out of possession. His choice was guided by the aim of subduing the strengths of his teams’ opponents and of taking advantage of any potential weaknesses.
Pochettino favours building possession from the back. From the first pass – perhaps a goal-kick – his teams seek to gain numerical advantages to work the ball forwards and to reach the attacking half in an organised set-up (below). At Spurs, Hugo Lloris, Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld coordinated, and the two Belgians were consistently ready to receive passes. Dier – whose versatility made him particularly valuable – or Harry Winks withdrew from midfield to form a triangle alongside them in an attempt to create a three-on-two overload against an opponent’s press; either would be replaced in a potential double pivot by a further midfielder, and those further forwards would work to support the lone striker and increase numbers in the final third.
His teams’ attacks are heavily influenced by their full-backs. At Southampton, Luke Shaw and Nathaniel Clyne were as important as Danny Rose and Kyle Walker were at Spurs, before Kieran Tripper and Rose or Ben Davies increasingly operated as wing-backs in front of a back three. The width they provided helped them to bypass opponents applying a high press and to benefit from the quality of those players’ deliveries, and encouraged penetrations inside opposing full-backs, another tactic of which Pochettino is fond.
Through their full-backs operating in that way, secondary forwards were encouraged to move nearer to the lone striker. Before managing PSG, Kane was the best striker Pochettino had managed and, under the Argentinian, he became increasingly versatile. His improving passing numbers and willingness to withdraw into deeper positions and link play invited quicker runners to advance beyond him, ensuring Spurs continued to offer a transitional threat, and proved effective on the occasions they had more possession or made regains in midfield. Rickie Lambert performed similarly at Southampton, where he was supported by Adam Lallana and Jay Rodriguez.
Spurs and Southampton also attacked asymmetrically (below), even if they offered identical patterns and rotations towards both the left and right. Through Son Heung-min drifting infield to combine with Alli, perhaps to operate as a secondary number 10, they had an additional runner penetrating forwards and forcing opposing defences back. Their second 10, remaining deeper, was then able to combine with other teammates; at Southampton, Lallana drifted infield to encourage Shaw or Clyne to overlap, and Rodriguez advanced to support Lambert.
So far in Paris, Pochettino has continued to favour a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and, when required, a 4-4-2. PSG also implement his recognised attacking patterns – their width is provided by their overlapping full-backs (below), and Kylian Mbappé and Neymar attack infield. If the latter is selected on the left he moves to almost permanently occupy the inside left channel, where he seeks to receive to feet.
If Mbappé is instead positioned there, he provides more instinctive movements in behind and across the pitch, so a central midfielder advances from behind him – both Marco Verratti and Julian Draxler have relished instead moving into space in the inside left channel. The direct runs made by Mbappé also represent a particularly effective outlet during moments of transition – particularly those that follow regains in the attacking half.
If they are confronted by organised defensive blocks – a particularly common occurrence in domestic competition – his subtler movements to receive between or in behind opponents are complemented by the ball-playing abilities and vision Neymar, Draxler, Verratti and Angel di María provide. Di María consistently features from the right, where he retains his width more than do either Neymar or Mbappé; when he moves infield he does so at a later stage, and is followed by PSG’s right-back overlapping when, similarly to the asymmetrical shape seen at Spurs, they offer numerous passing options between the lines.
From deeper territory, Leandro Paredes’ passing regularly reaches, between the lines and in central territory, PSG’s attacking players. Mauro Icardi and Moise Kean have, like Neymar and Mbappé, also featured there, and provided both goals and regular movements in behind, even if the latter are performed to create increased space for those behind them.
Pressing and defending
Numerical superiorities remain a priority when Pochettino’s teams defend. The Argentinian has developed a system designed to minimise an opposing team’s time in possession – one that Spurs particularly impressed in applying. Their positional attacks, and their players’ ability to link and play in the attacking half, means that so many of them remain close to their opponents at losses of possession (above), inviting them to immediately apply their manager’s desired press and to quickly regain possession and potentially even score following a direct transition.
It is for that reason that he prefers players capable of making repeated short, intense bursts of activity, contributing to so many of those he inherited at Spurs being quickly excluded from his long-term plans. For all of his positive experiments with a back three, he continues to favour the structural stability that comes with a back four becoming narrow when they first begin to press. Should either full-back in that back four be required to advance, a defensive midfielder withdraws into the defence that shuffles across to maintain the desired back four. That flexibility is as valuable in his full-backs as it is those in defensive midfield; both are asked to cover so much ground that they require periods to recover.
If circumstances dictate that their high press is less likely to succeed, Pochettino’s teams have proved capable of defending from different territory (above) and with a mid-block. At Spurs, their striker represented the reference point for the start of a press that was assisted by their attacking midfielder, their wide forwards, and those in the double pivot at the base of midfield. Midfield boxes were also occasionally formed to provide pressure in central territory, and to discourage their opponents from playing through there.
On the occasions a high press isn’t favourable, the priority becomes closing the passing lanes and inside channels in an attempt to guide play into a wide position. When the relevant spaces are reduced with their movements, possession is instead regained through the full-back and central midfielder combining. Regardless of the height at which they are defending, when some players are instructed to focus on the ball carrier, others prioritise the opponents closest to the ball, and the remainder defend the appropriate spaces against potential passes – typically for Pochettino’s teams, working as an entire unit. Even if his teams remain more effective when aggressively pressing, their ability to adopt different structures gives them valuable variety.
In domestic competition, PSG have so far mostly favoured a high pressing approach (above). Their striker and, most commonly, number 10 take their opposing central defenders, and their wide midfielders aggressively provide support in the wide areas and work to force the ball wide, complementing the advanced positioning of their number 10 and striker. One of their two defensive midfielders also advances – to cover against access back infield and to deter opponents from playing through the centre of the pitch or from switching play – and the other supports closer to the defenders behind him by covering at the second phase of direct play. By doing so, PSG’s central defenders have the freedom, when required, to defend wider, and therefore to encourage their full-backs to advance and support their wide midfielders’ press.
There are also periods when the deeper positioned of their two central midfielders withdraws into PSG’s defensive line, or covers the full-back on his side of the pitch. The difficulty involved in him attempting to cover the other full-back heightens the importance of his midfield partner’s positioning, and with it that midfielder’s ability to defend switches of play to the areas of the pitch where they offer reduced cover. The same principle often existed at Spurs.
It is against their strongest opponents – ordinarily those they encounter in Europe – that Pochettino has preferred his team to defend with a mid-block (above). When they do so, their two wide midfielders withdraw to alongside their two defensive midfielders to form a second line of four, their number 10 will cover against access to the opposition’s deepest-lying midfielder, and Mbappé remains braced – away from his opposing central defenders and mostly free of the responsibility to press – to sprint in behind after regains are made. When those central defenders split to contribute to attempts to build around PSG’s block, Mbappé remains positioned to counter, and is often targeted by direct passes.
If an out-of-possession 4-4-2 is favoured against opponents who leave numbers behind the ball to negate PSG’s significant transitional threat, against their strongest opponents Pochettino favours defending with a 4-3-3 that can also become a 4-1-4-1 mid-block that offers increased security in front of his central defenders without sacrificing his sought-after aggressive pressure in wide territory. The player positioned between defence and midfield can cover behind a full-back or withdraw into defence on either side of the pitch, ensuring that their two central midfielders remain positioned to screen against passes in the centre, and to contribute to attempts to force possession wide. Given opponents often respond by committing more numbers forwards, Mbappé is presented with increased space to attack into.
no way am i reading all that.
Again, not my point. Not 1st vs 19th, but PSG vs the rest. It is the gap in quality between PSG and the closest contenders I’m talking about, the gap between top and bottom is supposed to be big. The fact that Nimes got 35 points in Ligue 1 tells something about Ligue 1 though. How many points would they get in the PL?
So we agree that he is balanced? The crazy thing about arguing against it is that being balanced is the best thing, that's a quality!
Attacking minded though. There's a bit of a narrative at the moment that Poch is some boring Mourinho esq style coach. Not sure why.
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