Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win

RedChip said:
Progressive patriotism? An oxymoron, surely?
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Wait, what? No.

I'm not a Labour voter, I'm an LD/Con Swing voter, but patriotism is not the same as nationalism.

You can absolutely be progressive and patriotic, wanting to be progressive and desiring the best for your country socially doesn't mean you have to have a sense of superiority over other nations, as with some brands nationalism.

And being patriotic doesn't mean you have to be regressive or too far socially conservative.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Wait, what? No.

I'm not a Labour voter, I'm an LD/Con Swing voter, but patriotism is not the same as nationalism.

You can absolutely be progressive and patriotic, wanting to be progressive and desiring the best for your country socially doesn't mean you have to have a sense of superiority over other nations, as with some brands nationalism.

And being patriotic doesn't mean you have to be regressive or too far socially conservative.
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Hmm.. Can you illustrate what it is to 'desire the best for your country socially'?
 


I said this at the time so glad to hear one of the lefty lot recognise it. Quite a few of the snippets from her declaration speech are quite spot on to be honest.

I imagine she'll win as deputy and it'll hopefully provide a feeling of fairness and inclusiveness to corbynites.
 
Timetable
Tuesday 7 January: Nominations open from MPs and MEPs.
Monday 13 January: Nominations from MPs and MEPs closes at 2.30pm.
Tuesday 14 January: Registered supporters applications open at 5pm.
Thursday 16 January: Registered supporters applications close at 5pm.
Wednesday 15 January: Second stage of nominations from Constituency Labour Parties and affiliates opens.
Monday 20 January: Freeze date for eligibility for new members and affiliated supporters, closes at 5pm.
Friday 14 February: Close of CLP and affiliate nominations.
Friday 21 February: Ballot opens.
Thursday 2 April: Ballot closes at 12pm.
Saturday 4 April: Special conference to announce results.
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and already some controversy over the process
But the left-dominated NEC faced swift accusations of trying to “rig” the race in favour of Long Bailey, who is expected to win the backing of Momentum founder Jon Lansman.

Momentum has extensive reach among the party’s members but candidates won’t get access until membership data until after the local party and union nominations are completed.

“Basically, the Momentum candidate goes in to the race with an in-built advantage,” one NEC source told HuffPost UK.
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https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...QzgtSk3FPleuZxYAjfMjR0CWV-r82niR&guccounter=2
 
Smores said:



I imagine she'll win as deputy and it'll hopefully provide a feeling of fairness and inclusiveness to corbynites.
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Probably... Anybody but burgon to be honest
She can be the new John prescot keeping the left happy with a nice sounding but pretty pointless job whilst the party moves to the centre with an electable leader... Suppose that can work... Let her out at conference for a jolly and a speech with her union buddies and keep her around for punching anybody who chucks an egg (or I guess milkshake these days)
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
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I agree with the crux of her points especially Green New Deal (although whether a party could win on that is unclear to me, hopefully NL don't kick it as a policy) but her opening bid just underlines why she isn't suitable. It reads like someone campaigning for the student union.
 
DavidDeSchmikes said:
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Very worrying lack of understanding. When you boil it down it says the problem was just a poor election strategy and that pressing on with Corbyn's anti-establishment rhetoric is what we need. Continuity-Corbyn 100%.

That said, I dont think its a great pitch, even among members. There's a definite change in tone from many Corbyn supporters, there's an acknowledgement that something needs to change as long as it doesn't change back to the old days of New Labour. Labour needed change in 2015 and that's what Corbynism represented, so it was win-win for disillusioned supporters reeling from the 2015 surprise defeat. Now people know we need to change again but Corbynism represents more of the same. This time the scale of the defeat makes it clear that Corbynism was, at best, a mixed blessing. Unless RLB turns out to be a hell of a lot more charismatic and insightful than she's shown so far in her career, I think she's far from nailed on to win the election because her platform is not the sure fire winner that it was when Corbyn won back in 2015. Which is just as well, because I think she'd be a disaster for the party.
 
So they're going to pick someone who is as close to the centre as possible yes? That has to be common sense unless I'm missing something?

Any remote continuation of the current direction of the party would be madness.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I wish they'd drop the 'comrade' nonsense too .What purpose does it serve other than give ammunition to the opposition to frame them as Marxists, communists etc?
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I feel like these people referring to people as 'comrade' is like punching themselves in the face, repeatedly. I've had to tell some well meaning friends that are activists for all the right reasons that it really turns me off and I'm on their side. It's an easy fix, just drop the term ffs.
 
What’s the lefts / momentum’s view on long- Bailey? Is she your first choice?
 
esmufc07 said:
Keir Starmer
RLB
Lisa Nandy
Jess Philips
Clive Lewis
Emily Thornberry
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Ian Lavery announced and has backed out i think

Gut feel starmer will get 50 or so backers
long bailey around 40
nandy and phillips about 30 each
lewis / thornberry - might struggle to get enough backers

could end up with just 4 on the ballot i think... if that's the case my order would probably be:
phillips
starmer
nandy
wrong daily

(Assuming all pass the local party / union threshold as well)

list of backers (guido so some will flounce around but they are normally pretty accurate on their backers lists)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...MnP1NbBryW8qkYVC7uTICU/edit?ts=5e130253#gid=0
 
GDaly95 said:
So they're going to pick someone who is as close to the centre as possible yes? That has to be common sense unless I'm missing something?

Any remote continuation of the current direction of the party would be madness.
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Centre of the party certainly but not centre politically unless you actually mean centre left.

The centre as it currently stands in this country is not a place Labour could reside in morally or with any credibility. It would be much further right than Blairs tenure.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I wish they'd drop the 'comrade' nonsense too .What purpose does it serve other than give ammunition to the opposition to frame them as Marxists, communists etc?
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I went to my first trade union meeting 40 years ago and they called each other brother. It sounded so outdated even then, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still said. Actually it was a very male environment in those days, there must be a lot of sisters too now.
 
711 said:
I went to my first trade union meeting 40 years ago and they called each other brother. It sounded so outdated even then, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's still said. Actually it was a very male environment in those days, there must be a lot of sisters too now.
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My dad had responsibility for collecting union fees/subs at his factory - he was called 'Father of the Chapel'. It all seems so outdated now, and I'm not sure how I feel about that.
 
Ady87 said:
I feel like these people referring to people as 'comrade' is like punching themselves in the face, repeatedly. I've had to tell some well meaning friends that are activists for all the right reasons that it really turns me off and I'm on their side. It's an easy fix, just drop the term ffs.
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It is definitely counter productive. But it is a weakness of the hard left that they so value their labels and self-identities. It seems almost as they there is intrinsic value in declaring youself a socialist and calling each other comrades: there isn't, and certainly the great majority of the public doesn't care how you self-identify.
 
RedChip said:
It is definitely counter productive. But it is a weakness of the hard left that they so value their labels and self-identities. It seems almost as they there is intrinsic value in declaring youself a socialist and calling each other comrades: there isn't, and certainly the great majority of the public doesn't care how you self-identify.
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I'd go a step further and say it actively turns off a significant part of the electorate from the movement.
 
I might be very childish but does anyone else think Starmer looks generally shifty? You know how the Simpsons always portray Richard Nixon, his eyes move from side to side, well he sort of does that, and goes blank for a bit when asked a question, as if he's calculating the right answer rather than just saying straight off what he thinks. I'm not sure when he gets more exposure he'll go down that well with average TV viewer, unfair though it may be.
 
711 said:
I might be very childish but does anyone else think Starmer looks generally shifty? You know how the Simpsons always portray Richard Nixon, his eyes move from side to side, well he sort of does that, and goes blank for a bit when asked a question, as if he's calculating the right answer rather than just saying straight off what he thinks. I'm not sure when he gets more exposure he'll go down that well with average TV viewer, unfair though it may be.
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Ambiguity is much harder to explain and takes much more effort. Better off blurting out plain fibs like Boris.
 
711 said:
I might be very childish but does anyone else think Starmer looks generally shifty? You know how the Simpsons always portray Richard Nixon, his eyes move from side to side, well he sort of does that, and goes blank for a bit when asked a question, as if he's calculating the right answer rather than just saying straight off what he thinks. I'm not sure when he gets more exposure he'll go down that well with average TV viewer, unfair though it may be.
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Don't know. I think Boris's flip act will soon start to grate and it could be an advantage (in the public's eye) for Starmer or whoever else leads Labour to actually think before responding or at least seem thoughtful.
 
RedChip said:
Don't know. I think Boris's flip act will soon start to grate and it could be an advantage (in the public's eye) for Starmer or whoever else leads Labour to actually think before responding or at least seem thoughtful.
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I can see Boris calling him Sir Kier throughout PMQ's ... partially because it will help him frame starmer as part of the establishment and far removed from the former labour areas in the north and partially because starmer perfers not to be called sir

I think Starmer will match up ok against Boris , though i think nandy and especially phillips would match up even better against him ... PMQ's might actually be entertaining if it was Phillips and Johnson
 
My vision of a democratic, decarbonised economy alongside a new democracy that hands power and wealth back to ordinary people
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''Christ that's bad'' - Centre Left.


 
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esmufc07 said:
Tory Lite

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That should have been done during Miliband's time but it's a daft strategy for today. As much as people don't want to admit it New Labour lost the argument and took the blame, harking back that it wasn't so bad won't work.
 
Well I for one am glad that nobody has learnt the lesson that this stupid tribal infighting is what benefits the Tories more than anything.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Well I for one am glad that nobody has learnt the lesson that this stupid tribal infighting is what benefits the Tories more than anything.
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Did you expect anything else ?

Its a leadership race, theres going to be infighting(Also the general public don't care about this).
 
I'm not convinced that this subject is of great interest to the wider public...which is surely the most important thing.
 
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