I think that pacifist types are more likely to vote for someone who will press the button but has great social policies than someone who is more nationalistic will vote for someone they regard as weak on defence, regardless of policies.
Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win
- Thread starter Kaos
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I’m not literally suggesting the party goes back to New Labour. We should be forward looking, but we should take some pride in the things we achieved. On the narrow point Burgon was making, he’s quite simply wrong - blaming New Labour for austerity rather than the subsequent Tory government who implemented it is the definition of shooting ourselves in the foot.
New Labour had plenty of flaws, and I’m happy to talk about them (deregulation, Iraq, excessive spin etc), but it also had many positive achievements, and public spending and investment was one of them.
Agreed. I think even Corbyn was slightly aware that he often appeared unpatriotic, hence the token suggestion that the national saints days become bank holidays (he obviously justified it to himself as increasing workers’ rights).
What we ultimately need to remember is Britain is a great country! We have achieved a lot and continue to punch above our weight on the global stage in many areas, cultural, political, technological and financial.
There are lots of ways in which the country needs to improve and evolve to benefit our citizens and we should be pushing for these changes, but talking ourselves down as a country, or romantically looking back to the days of mining and manufacturing, is not helpful.
So do I, I like him.
I can't believe it's not Labour
Whilst your version of nationalistic pride is reasonable the types that Labour have to win over are the ones that long for the return of the Empire and superiority over their subjects who to them are inferior humans.
To be fair, that’s bullshit.
I think this is a key point. There’s a difference between emphasising patriotic values, and adhering to the bigoted little Englander nonsense. I think part of the reasons the Tories were successful in working class parts of England was because they often played on the latter, which unfortunately resonated quite well in those parts.
The idea that to be competitive Labour should race the Tories to the bottom with nationalist dog-whistling is a depressing one. I fear they’ll feel it necessary too once the Tories inevitably start scapegoating immigration as the reason their promises fail to materialise over the coming years.
Yep, keep your head in the sand.
As alway with 21st century global capitalism, your patriotism isn't even original.
But honestly Britain really is awfully shite.
This is the sort of thing that lost many many votes for Labour, not because people really were dreaming of empire but because they saw the allegation as such utter bollocks. Labour won't get in again until they understand what people actually think instead of making things up to suit their own prejudices.
I’m quite literally saying the opposite of Make Britain Great Again. As Obama said about America in response to Trump, Britain is already great. We shouldn’t be looking back to supposed better times of the past (which never really existed), but rather moving forward based on our current successes as a nation.
Come on at least make your patriotism original.
But honestly Britain really is awfully shite.
If you genuinely believe Britain is ‘shite’, then you have no chance of winning an election.
Sometimes the truth is bitter, 59% of British people are proud of the empire and its actions and somehow 50% believe the colonised countries were left in a better state.
Why should views like this be promoted and pandered to?
No, people like me love Britain and want a positive conversation about how we can try and be the best country in the world.
It’s just nonsense though. Do you ever talk to people in the traditional heartlands? My family is all from Wales and I’m down there quite a lot - I’ve yet to hear people revelling in the memory of empire. But people are proud of their country.
And nothing wrong with that, I said that in my first sentence. But hard-core nationalism isn't the way forward.
Britain did horrible things during the empire, but I don't think anyone is pandering to that. I didn't hear empire mentioned once in the election, I don't think it has any political resonance.
I don't know how much it cuts through, and I didn't hear it mentioned, but the photograph of Jeremy Corbyn asleep on a train during England's rugby world cup semi final will resonate with some people. I think to be a leader in this country you have to demonstrate passion about Britain competing with the rest of the world, ref Boris's speech from 2008.
I don't doubt it, I'd have put it at more personally, but it is about the past. History. Gone. Finished. Every time you bring it up in today's politics you lose votes, and it's the far left keep bringing it up. It's like watching some bizarre suicide.
Neither is hard-core anti-nationalism though.
Mbga... It doesn't flow
As alway with 21st century global capitalism, your patriotism isn't even original.
But honestly Britain really is awfully shite.
Kick out Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland and we have MEGA... Winner
And they shall for the next five years as they still think they are doing nothing wrong.
Did you see Maitlis interviewing Burgon? When he kept stating that Labour lost 5m votes between 1997 and 2010 I swear she started treating him with less respect than she did Prince Andrew.
They need to understand that politics is not cyclical, and that Labour have no God given right to govern. The Liberal Party went from Government to obscurity in a decade or so. No reason why that cannot happen with Labour.
Thornberry now taking legal action v Flint for her comments yesterday.
Problem for Thornberry is, it's precisely the kind of comment people would expect her to make.
She's ghastly.
Stupid thing to do, just going to bring it further into the media sphere now. Just do your denial on twitter, and deny if you are ever asked about it.
Will Flint be able to support what she says? Or will Thornberry end up like Oscar Wilde? I don't mean serving two years hard labour for homosexuality, just starting a court case that spectacularly backfires.
Flint seemed very reticent on GMB this morning. She was prodded to double down on her assertion but hid behing "there might be legal proceedings, so I'll make no further comment" (roughly).
Perhaps as part of the wider conversation it needs to be in the mix that not only could that happen but that perhaps it isnt the end of the world if it does? perhaps a new centre left political party made up of libs and more moderate labour and a more radical left wing option is actually a better fit for Labour and indeed the current uk political spectrum
Brexit ..............Conservative..........social (or Eropean) democrats ............momentum
(Far right) .......(centre right)..........(centre left lib + centrist Labour) .........(far left - possibly with greens?)
that might actually be a better model if it becomes apparent that Labour is too focused on internal battles
Brexit will need to rename themselves, the centre left party would as well - momentum could keep the labour name I guess
under a PR system the two wings of the party would most probably be different parties already and then the focus would be collaborative and how they can work together - As one party the fight is to control one unified policy.
Ironically if there was a split it could well result in 3 of the main 4 groupings (far right, Centre left and far left) all wanting a PR system which ultimately would probably be more collaborative in the long term... as it stands though I dont think either wing of the party os prepared to give up the name recognition and funding or at least not without one last fight
i do understand that there has been some informal talks about a new centre left coalition that predated the change uk move... might actually come to fruition if we end up with a bailey burgon type arrangement in labour
Either way it wont be the end of centre left or indeed far left political activism in the UK - and actually unless somebody can unify the Labour party (and I dont see anybody that can at the moment) it might actually be for the best in the long run
BBC website:
While some are calling for a new direction in Labour after its election defeat, one author is warning the Corbyn-supporting campaign group Momentum will still have a major influence in the leadership race.
David Kogan, a Labour member who has written a book about the party's battles, tells BBC Radio 5 Live: "Momentum's power within the Labour Party in its ability to activate people and win elections within the party is still very powerful - so a new leader cannot ignore Momentum.
"But equally Momentum cannot ignore the fact that it has been part of the regime of the last four years that has now lost two elections in a row, and this one disastrously."
He adds that Momentum has two options - to "support and work with" whoever the new leader is, or to act as a "challenger to the leadership".
If the latter happens, Mr Kogan believes Labour "will be torn apart".
While some are calling for a new direction in Labour after its election defeat, one author is warning the Corbyn-supporting campaign group Momentum will still have a major influence in the leadership race.
David Kogan, a Labour member who has written a book about the party's battles, tells BBC Radio 5 Live: "Momentum's power within the Labour Party in its ability to activate people and win elections within the party is still very powerful - so a new leader cannot ignore Momentum.
"But equally Momentum cannot ignore the fact that it has been part of the regime of the last four years that has now lost two elections in a row, and this one disastrously."
He adds that Momentum has two options - to "support and work with" whoever the new leader is, or to act as a "challenger to the leadership".
If the latter happens, Mr Kogan believes Labour "will be torn apart".
It depends... if Flint has evidence - but if it was a conversation between the two of them I am not sure what evidence there would be unless there are witnesses or recordings - essentially one word against the other but as Flint made the conversation public I guess the burden of proof lies with her?
If it isn't true, I don't blame Thornberry. Flint tried to embarrass her.
For those old enough to remember how did the Tories react to their 1997 defeat? Fewer seats than Labour won in this one (165). I know they went through a bad period with the likes of IDS, Hague, Howard before Cameron won the leadership but how did they sought to reinvent themselves as a party and become once more electable?
Blair had the centre ground... they struggled to differentiate themselves and moved more and more to the right which was a rubbish idea but they were appealing to the conservative base rather than looking for somebody who appealed to the more general population (could have been very different i think if ken clarke had won one of the leadership contests) ... it wasnt till cameron came along with his compassionate conservatism and made overtures to the center they really had a chance (helped by brown being perceived as having moved to the left as well)
Even if it is true but Thornberry knows she cant prove it and could be bankrupt by a defamation case then i dont blame Thornberry - politics is war without bloodshed (as mao said - so im sure john mcdonald would approve)
They rolled out some pretty unlikeable leaders (IDS
) till they realised the only way they were getting back into government was embracing the ‘one nation’ approach to conservatism. Hence Cameron, with his “we’re all in it together” sentiment, token environmental policies and generally a more inclusive approach to the party. I think at that point people were also exhausted by the Brown-Blair reign, and the Tories were clever to capitalise on the economic crash, masquerading themselves as the part of fiscal responsibility, while holding Labour culpable for reckless borrowing.I think it's more that they see such accusations as anti-british which they take offence by association and it creates the image that the left care as much for 'them' as 'us'. Polling shows the empire is something many see with pride. Labour can and must become proudly British and British focused without pandering to xenophobia, perhaps that's the lesson missed from the brexit vote and several previous elections.
On the other hand people need to stop pretending that the country isn't moving right. I know it's comforting to rationale that everyone is reasonable and somewhere in the centre but it's not true right now as is the case across much of the world.