Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win

sammsky1 said:
I dialled in for some of the call. Momentum are congratulating themselves for being such wonderful souls, despite the fact that the country totally rejected their plans to save the planet. It's bonkers. Utter utter delusion.

This Momentum hijacked Labour Party lives in a parallel universe to normal life in 2019. They are wired into an alternative matrix. They are done, never ever getting back into power.
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Some real Cultish vibes coming from that lot no doubt, worrying stuff.
 
Boycott said:
How is that any different from right wingers labelling anyone who dares care about issues beyond themselves as "social justice warriors", "snowflakes" or using expressions such as "own the libs"?

The right wing aren't some bastion of bringing people together. Quite the opposite.
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What's this whataboutism got to do with anything? This is about Labour's next leader, and that Labour have lost the working class support, and that Jess Phillips might not be able to win that back, or the non-traditional Labour voters that the party needs to reach out to.
 
Smores said:
CLP nominations are just endorsements they don't really mean much to be fair. Moderates don't tend to be the ones at them anyway which is why Corbyn always won the nominations by a landslide.

It seems to be commonly agreed that it would be better to escalate the timetable rather than have a prolonged one like what happened with Milliband.

I could be missing a procedure change down the line somewhere but that's my recollection anyway.
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Recent rule changes - https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/elections/2019/12/how-does-labour-leadership-election-work
 
sullydnl said:
So Rebecca Long-Bailey currently seems to the leadership's pick and is now bookies' favourite to replace Corbyn.

Any chance at all she's the right person?
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Well...she's not as bad as Burgon so there's that. She's an Ed Millband type candidate not bad but i don't think many will perceive her as a leader.

Most of the members i know and have spoken to who were previously Corbyn backers don't fancy her for the job either. I suspect her favourite tag is from momentum leadership backing and not necessarily members.
 
Smores said:
Well...she's not as bad as Burgon so there's that. She's an Ed Millband type candidate not bad but i don't think many will perceive her as a leader.

Most of the members i know and have spoken to who were previously Corbyn backers don't fancy her for the job either. I suspect her favourite tag is from momentum leadership backing and not necessarily members.
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I think even they would have backed pidcock if she hadn't lost her seat
 
sun_tzu said:
Fully expect them to try and make candidates sign up to the current manifesto and limit voting to members who were in before 12th December.
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It was 6 months last time so it'll be before then i reckon.
 
Smores said:
It was 6 months last time so it'll be before then i reckon.
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I'm not sure... It will probably be a fight

I genuinely think if new members are blocked from voting, the new leader basically has to sign up to a rejected manifesto and let's say the nec demand a veto or to pick the shadow cabinet then the plp splits... It's going to be very hard to pick a set of rules that isn't seen as controversial... Plus I wouldn't be surprised to have the ehrc report drop during the process which will I think cause massive problems
 
Smores said:
Ah okay yeah i missed that. Certainly gives an advantage to momentum backed candidates from a campaigning perspective but I'm sure the likes of Phillips will get enough nominations.

A lot of arguing online about the schedule. It's a shame there's not a viable route to an interim leader.
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If Corbyn quits and there is no deputy the nec is supposed to appoint an interim leader ... That's the only real official route I think

I'd prefer that they give people a week to decide if they will run for leader or deputy leader then exclude all of them from the ballott and have the plp vote on an interim leader from the remaining people.
 
OohAahMartial said:
What's this whataboutism got to do with anything? This is about Labour's next leader, and that Labour have lost the working class support, and that Jess Phillips might not be able to win that back, or the non-traditional Labour voters that the party needs to reach out to.
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While Labour 'reflects', attempting to re-connect with their lost base by 'listening' to these lost constituencies, they may find themselves talking with themselves and without any opportunity to win them back until the next global financial crisis.

Labour's existential issue going forwards is that Boris may be smart enough to deliver tangible goodies for all the Northern constituencies that supported him, and also invest enough in NHS to make quantitative improvements. I'm sure the Tory membership and party workers are so motivated right now, and there are lots of jobs and positions up for grabs for people who can make a difference.

The Tory slur about the 'Islington elite' makes total sense to me now. It's Hilary and the Democrats all over again. This momentum hijacked labour party has good 'educated youth' understanding, but knows nothing about the rustbelt working class.

As someone who believes in democracy, I'm willing to give Boris 2 years of objective support to see how he does. Maybe I'm totally wrong and that Brexit will be a massive success which causes huge economic growth. Boris has now proven twice that he has a better read of the working class than anyone in the Labour party (referendum and election). Maybe he is also a genius who can read the British public and their needs better than all the others in the left.

The Conservative Party took the centre ground that Corbynista's found so dirty. They now have the opportunity to make Labour irrelevant for a generation.
 
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OohAahMartial said:
What's this whataboutism got to do with anything? This is about Labour's next leader, and that Labour have lost the working class support, and that Jess Phillips might not be able to win that back, or the non-traditional Labour voters that the party needs to reach out to.
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Jess Phillips family origin is from the working class. The working class of her childhood used to despise Margaret Thatcher and the Tories. Hence her little quip in that video about being brought up to despise the tories. If you lived in Manchester or Liverpool in those days you'd know exactly what she meant.
 
Boycott said:
Jess Phillips family origin is from the working class. The working class of her childhood used to despise Margaret Thatcher and the Tories. Hence her little quip in that video about being brought up to despise the tories. If you lived in Manchester or Liverpool in those days you'd know exactly what she meant.
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So because Jess Phillips's father was once working class she gets to play the 'I was brought up to hate the tories' card? I don't buy it. She clearly had a decent upbringing with two well educated parents and she went to a nice grammar school (as did her mother). She is yet another biggotted middle class left winger.
 
sammsky1 said:
While Labour 'reflects', attempting to 'listen' to these lost constituencies and trying to re-connect with their lost base, they may find themselves talking to themselves without any opportunity to win them back until the next global financial crisis.

Labour's existential issue going forwards is that Boris may be smart enough to deliver tangible goodies for all the Northern constituencies that supported him, and also invest enough in NHS to make quantitative improvements. I'm sure the Tory membership and party workers are so motivated right now, and there are lots of jobs and positions up for grabs for people who can make a difference.

This momentum hijacked party has good educated youth understanding, but knows nothing about the rustbelt working class. The Tory slur about the 'Islington elite' makes total sense to me now. It's Hilary and the Democrats all over again.

As someone who believes in democracy, I'm willing to give Boris 2 years of objective support to see how he does. Maybe Im totally wrong and that Brexit will be a massive success which causes huge economic growth. And maybe he is also a genius who can read the British public and their needs better than all the others in the centre left and left. Boris has now proven twice that he has a better read of the working class than anyone in the Labour party (referendum and election).

The Conservative Party took the centre ground that Corbynista's found so dirty. They now have the opportunity to make Labour irrelevant for a generation.
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And I suspect that many people will take that approach too. I still believe that this is a centrist country, and even with the potential financial impact of Brexit if Johnson spends and invests in the Midlands and North then I think that the next election could lead to further Tory gains.
 
Also, the more the Left bleats about Johnson's extremism, the more I suspect he and Cummings will prioritise 'reasonable' policies. I know Gigabit capable broadband, measures to combat online harms, allowing employees to keep all tips, mandated NHS spending, combating domestic abuse, increasing sentences for violent criminals and the liberalisation of divorce laws are first up.
 
Frosty said:
And I suspect that many people will take that approach too. I still believe that this is a centrist country, and even with the potential financial impact of Brexit if Johnson spends and invests in the Midlands and North then I think that the next election could lead to further Tory gains.
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Frosty said:
Also, the more the Left bleats about Johnson's extremism, the more I suspect he and Cummings will prioritise 'reasonable' policies. I know Gigabit capable broadband, measures to combat online harms, allowing employees to keep all tips, mandated NHS spending, combating domestic abuse, increasing sentences for violent criminals and the liberalisation of divorce laws are first up.
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He will begin by telling his new Tory recruits, who mostly represent northern and Midlands seats, they must help him deliver for the voters in their areas.
A No 10 source said: “The seismic events on Thursday returned Conservative MPs in Bolsover, in Blythe and in Bishop Auckland to name a few. This election and the new generation of MPs that have resulted from Labour towns turning blue will help change our politics for the better.“

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...w-tory-mps-they-have-to-change-party-for-good
 
sullydnl said:
So Rebecca Long-Bailey currently seems to the leadership's pick and is now bookies' favourite to replace Corbyn.

Any chance at all she's the right person?
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If she’s the corbynite pick then we both know the answer to that...
 
Really don’t get the left wing hate for the labour friends of Israel supporting, female, middle class anti Corbyn Jess Phillips.
 
esmufc07 said:
Pretty sure we did actually used to have one.
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Bring it back!

I think the loss is far more nuanced than Corbyn is crap (though he is a bit) but stop doubling down on it and stop attacking the blairite wing of the party. You're not going to win any election without them.

I've seen people point to 2017 as evidence to the contrary. You lost in 2017. Ffs
 
So seems 20th January will be cut off for new members who want to vote in the leadership elections. Will be interesting to see how much the membership increases by between now and then (if at all)

 
esmufc07 said:
Who’s up for a comradely discussion?

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What the feck is he even talking about? Of all the things to accuse New Labour of, he goes for ‘cuts’? New Labour massively boosted spending, they didn’t cut anything!

This is exactly what I meant when I said the party needs to reconcile with New Labour and own the successes. Lying about our own record for factional reasons does no one any good.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
What the feck is he even talking about? Of all the things to accuse New Labour of, he goes for ‘cuts’? New Labour massively boosted spending, they didn’t cut anything!

This is exactly what I meant when I said the party needs to reconcile with New Labour and own the successes. Lying about our own record for factional reasons does no one any good.
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As much as there's much validity to the Corbyites not learning failures thing, that also applies to those who want to hail New Labour. The rot started with New Labour for the crucial topics of immigration and economy and ignoring the north. Brown and Blair were already 'out of touch' by the end of that reign.

Don't get me wrong i said the other day I'd be more than happy to rebrand back to New Labour as long as some left policy remained. However, on reflection i dont think it would be helpful as those northern voters lost aren't new labour fans.

The answer isn't just to look back to a different era this time.
 
It's depressing the amount of people calling for Labour to be more nationalistic.
 
Smores said:
As much as there's much validity to the Corbyites not learning failures thing, that also applies to those who want to hail New Labour. The rot started with New Labour for the crucial topics of immigration and economy and ignoring the north. Brown and Blair were already 'out of touch' by the end of that reign.

Don't get me wrong i said the other day I'd be more than happy to rebrand back to New Labour as long as some left policy remained. However, on reflection i dont think it would be helpful as those northern voters lost aren't new labour fans.

The answer isn't just to look back to a different era this time.
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Corbyn's lot are far more out of touch with the north than New Labour ever were. They voted to extend freedom of movement to other countries before this election, even in light of Brexit which was largely driven by a desire to end it full stop! It's a wacky idea regardless but the fact it was voted for by the membership before this election just shows how utterly tone deaf and out of touch the hard left is in this country.
 
Adisa said:
It's depressing the amount of people calling for Labour to be more nationalistic.
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I think it has to be done in the right way. One of the problems the hard left have is that they come across as if they actively hate the country and that we should be deeply ashamed of our history. How can that ever appeal? Like it or not but patriotism has an instinctive element to it and makes up a big part of national self-esteem.

During the election I got accused of being a deluded patriot on here because I stated the fact that the UK is a world leader in the tech industry. To me that was indicative of the mindset that plagues the hard left, that there's nothing positive about this country and that we're the absolute pits by most measures.

It isn't about base nationalism but being positive more often about the many many assets that the country has. We are world leaders in many prestige sectors. A more positive message emphasising the assets and strengths of the country can engender a more healthy kind of nationalism.
 
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Smores said:
As much as there's much validity to the Corbyites not learning failures thing, that also applies to those who want to hail New Labour. The rot started with New Labour for the crucial topics of immigration and economy and ignoring the north. Brown and Blair were already 'out of touch' by the end of that reign.

Don't get me wrong i said the other day I'd be more than happy to rebrand back to New Labour as long as some left policy remained. However, on reflection i dont think it would be helpful as those northern voters lost aren't new labour fans.

The answer isn't just to look back to a different era this time.
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Even though Momentum is way more out of touch than New Labour became, I do agree with you that we shouldn't be looking backwards. I think it needs an entirely new rebrand, but they have to show they mean it for a start. Burgon and Corbyn really aren't helping there sadly.


I will be signing up if I get to vote, but thanks to the likes of yourself and others on here I'll 100% be looking to make as informed a decision as I can and not just go straight to anti-momentum or left or any of that.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I think it has to be done in the right way. One of the problems the hard left have is that they come across as if they actively hate the country and that we should be deeply ashamed of our history. How can that ever appeal? Like it or not but patriotism has an instinctive element to it and makes up a big part of national self-esteem.
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This is true. And it's because it's often the case. We've seen that the electorate is happy to cut its nose off to spite its face if it is suspicious of your motives or feels patronised.

Labour doesn't need to become jingoistic flag waving skinheads, but it does need to reconnect with what most people think. Terrorist walking down the street? Shoot him dead. They nuke us? Nuke them back. JC was seen as anti-British and pro- everyone who hates Britain the more these types of topics came up.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I think it has to be done in the right way. One of the problems the hard left have is that they come across as if they actively hate the country and that we should be deeply ashamed of our history. How can that ever appeal? Like it or not but patriotism has an instinctive element to it and makes up a big part of national self-esteem.

During the election I got accused of being a deluded patriot on here because I stated the fact that the UK is a world leader in the tech industry. To me that was indicative of the mindset that plagues the hard left, that there's nothing positive about this country and that we're the absolute pits by most measures.

It isn't about base nationalism but being positive more often about the many many assets that the country has. We are world leaders in many prestige sectors. A more positive message emphasising the assets and strengths of the country can engender a more healthy kind of nationalism.
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Excellent point. Many people on the left I speak with have nothing positive to say about the country, and refuse to hear anything positive.
 
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