Very good post. I like Shammy and Jeff here too, good guys who most definitely need to be at the heart (people like the other one though are way too arrogant and myopic in their views and are part of the problem the party has in coming together), more than someone like myself. But even then at least I got involved this election and tried to get people onside, and want a say in the future, something I haven't done for years and years. It's the guys at the top, the ones who have lost the plot that need outing and we rebuild are what they created but with fresh new ideas and people to go forward. Standing still, treading water, and blaming everything else is just not it.
Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win
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Very good post. I like Shammy and Jeff here too, good guys who most definitely need to be at the heart (people like the other one though are way too arrogant and myopic in their views and are part of the problem the party has in coming together), more than someone like myself. But even then at least I got involved this election and tried to get people onside, and want a say in the future, something I haven't done for years and years. It's the guys at the top, the ones who have lost the plot that need outing and we rebuild are what they created but with fresh new ideas and people to go forward. Standing still, treading water, and blaming everything else is just not it.
It's a bit shamless trying to pin the defeat on Starmer.
You know what @Smores I apologise to you, sincerely, if I've offended you.
It's hypocritical for us to talk about coming together, whilst bickering like a pair of children. For what it's worth, I doubt any of us who care are that far away from each other in terms of the way forward anyway, I guess the manner of that defeat makes it hard to see that right now.
It's hypocritical for us to talk about coming together, whilst bickering like a pair of children. For what it's worth, I doubt any of us who care are that far away from each other in terms of the way forward anyway, I guess the manner of that defeat makes it hard to see that right now.
Who is denying fresh leadership is needed? It’s quite weird seeing the same people mindlessly banging the same drum when few appear to be arguing anything to the contrary.You can try and remind them but it will fall on death ears
What people are concerned about is that Labour sells its soul all over again, ditching the heart it finally found to pursue another bankrupted centrist-esque project lots naively believe will lead the party to number 10.
Why don’t we park the smug, Randall-style pointing-and-laughing as we’re all fecking reeling. 4 years of unyielding civil war got us into this mess, so let’s redirect our energies against the Tories rather than against our own tribe. We expect our MPs to do the same, let’s lead by bleedin example.
I think we're talking at crossed purposes here. I don't think I ever assumed your views, my initial post wasn't responding to anything you'd said or posted, I'm sorry if it came across that way! I posted in reaction to the twitter/paper stuff rather than anything that was being discussed in the thread at the time.
I think we've found the mid-ground and despite a couple of misunderstandings we're clearly on the same team. I hope the rest of the party can have these same conversations and work something out.
It's the way forward indeed my friend. I'm cynical in that I unfortunately doubt it though, I don't trust the people running the show and they'll 100% try to keep their claws on the power imo. But the rest of us can be civil and find common ground indeed.
Why is fresh leadership = selling it's soul?
If you'd bother to actually read any of those "mindless posts" over the last few pages, you'd have seen we've discussed that misconception. Perhaps get involved when you aren't reeling and see what's actually being said, because the alternative is getting angry at people who are fecked off with the situation themselves.
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge
Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.
Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
I watched the ex BBC guy and Corbyn mouth piece on TV about 8 months ago. He said to the moderates it isn't your party and if you don't like it leave. They did.
The irony here on not letting entryist vote is staggering.
The Labour party should do the exact opposite of what people like you say they should do because you are the reason they are here, you just trashed the place, Don't pretend you know how to clean it up because that's not your forte you are purely a wrecker.
No doubt about that ,and yes Corbyn was soft in that department . They also need to bring in their own version of Cummings.
So that's a starting point
Hi Rupert.. we are going through a change process within labour and as part of that we want to have a conversation to understand where we have interests that overlap... We know that over dinner it is unlikely we will change your world view but we do feel we can assure you that we will be respectful in putting over our vision. It is in this respect we feel that we have mutual interests and put bluntly we do not wish to demonise you or your industry (nor do we wish to be demonised ourselves) we want a fresh start where we constructively engage in educating the public of our new vision and in order to do so we accept that we have been remiss in our previous engagement and we are hoping for a fresh start where we make available our top team and actively engage more with media. We want to reach out to voters beyond our social media bubble and we understand that advertising in publications such as yours will be of huge benefit to this strategy, however, if the editorial content next to the advertising was uninformed this could be detrimental to our intentions and of course your own journalists ability to inform the public... So let's have dinner and let's have a chat about how we can improve our engagement with you, how we can work together moving forwards and most of all so you can explain to us some of the difficulties we have as an organisation presented over the last few years to see how we can best understand and hopefully alleviate your concerns
Now get Laura k on the phone and promice her a jucy exclusive a month in return for some more balanced coverage
I mean that's part of a media strategy... The part thats been lacking for around a decade
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Moving towards the centre isn't the same as becoming centrist or selling its soul though. Some of the arguments from the left of the party still make it sound like there is no difference between a centre-left Labour supporter and a Tory, which is exactly the type of divisive messaging that needs to stop.
If the party is to be united then the left-wing of the party will almost certainly have to accept a) a more moderate & electable leader and b) a downscaling of the GE2019 policies. If they're unwilling to compromise to that degree without perceiving it as betraying their new-found heart then they're giving the Tories a fifth GE win in a row, because regardless of what you think of centrist politics in a broader context the Labour party simply will not win an election with this degree of in-fighting.
Moving towards the centre isn't the same as becoming centrist or selling its soul though. Some of the arguments from the left of the party still make it sound like there is no difference between a centre-left Labour supporter and a Tory, which is exactly the type of divisive messaging that needs to stop.
If the party is to be united then the left-wing of the party will almost certainly have to accept a) a more moderate & electable leader and b) a downscaling of the GE2019 policies. If they're unwilling to compromise to that degree without perceiving it as betraying their new-found heart then they're giving the Tories a fifth GE win in a row, because regardless of what you think of centrist politics in a broader context the Labour party simply will not win an election with this degree of in-fighting.
McDonnell doing his bit, saying they have to be from outside London then mentioning the MP for Brent Central who happens to have been a loyalist.
There was also a professionalism in New labour's approach that the current version seems to have completely mislaid - they had measurable ways of listening to public opinion and assessing the wider political landscape and reacting to it, they had message discipline, they had focus, they had a comprehensive comms strategy built around simple messaging, they had measurable objectives, they even had targets... pretty normal stuff if you work in any proper organisation. Thats not centrist, that's just good operations.
Fine, let's move on emotions are heightened. I think if you read my post on Starmer I'm far from denying change is needed and probably fairly close to your own view anyway. I've been saying I wouldn't vote for Corbyn leadership for a long time, I've always accepted optics as an issue. I certainly don't support RLB or Burgon despite their platform.
Certain things get posted in here as light hearted jokes/mocking as it feels like some of us have been arguing for years. Easy to get misconstrued.
There's a crazy lot on the left (new random Momentum offsprings) and a crazy lot on the right (Johnson et al) arguing right now and it's not helpful but they see it as battle of control. I accept the worst of progress feel vindicated right now but i don't accept their attacks or direction. The space in between is where the party needs to operate and i don't believe centrism needs to be attacking the left, it's balance.
One of the main reasons i originally voted to select Corbyn was that he promised to listen to the membership rather than ignore it. I just hope the next leader is an inclusive one rather than showing disdain for it's membership.
Incredible that you’ll proudly proclaim civility then just a few sentences later revert to sneering.
I never said new leadership = selling it’s soul, my stance on the issue is quite the opposite. We desperately need a stronger leader, one that’s less dithering and indecisive when staking it’s argument as to why voters should trust him/her to lead the country. I just don’t want that to be confused with a need for a completely new set of ideals. The sectarianism that has dogged the left is the reason why we are where we are. It got decimated in seats, but the 32% is only 3 points less than Blair’s third gov in 2005. The combined progressive vote got 50%. There’s reason to be optimistic for the future which includes elements of those that led us to defeat this time round.
So his geography is about as good as Abbott's maths
In fairness though I bet something like 20%-25% of labour MPs represent London constituiences so it would be a lot to simply discount based on where they represent
Oh ffs. Read back that post to yourself.
You're doing nothing constructive either and you're equally guilty of just howling into the void at the other side of the party that you don't like.
I feel like the centrist members of the Labour party have learnt nothing from the Owen Smith/Angela Eagle debacle in 2016. It's not enough to complain that Corbyn is shit, he did a a shit job and that the electorate might never elect someone as far to the left as him. Those statements are all to various degrees true (with the third one being the least true), but aren't addressed by simply picking 'not Corbyn' and hoping it will fix itself. There's no default position that a centrist candidate wins, and I think that a lot of the analysis I've seen on Twitter and on here is working on the assumption that there is. You have to put up competent candidates, create policies and convince the left wing of the party to come with you; failing to do so just sees you make all the same mistakes the left wing wing of the party have made over the past few years.
Good to see Emily Thornberry is starting her bid for the leadership by telling her labour colleagues that lost their seats "I'm glad my constituents aren't as stupid as yours". She is really down to earth is our Emily. Good for her that she represents the patriotic working class constituency of Islington South otherwise she might have been in trouble on Thursday.
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I will say if the next leader refuses to promise radical action on climate change because of it not being 'popular' or a message that resonates on the doorstep then i won't be voting Labour. That man in the audience of the leadership debate "oh here we go" when speaking about foreign impacts will be the type of voter that's the issue.
There's certain areas we can't compromise on and that's one. The next election should be about climate change and looking across the pond i can already see the split it'll cause.
There's certain areas we can't compromise on and that's one. The next election should be about climate change and looking across the pond i can already see the split it'll cause.
I wasn't sneering at you, you need to relax. This isn't twitter or facebook, or all the others where everything is like that.
You are the one right off the bat calling people mindless for their opinions on new leadership, then you talk about selling souls, how do you expect that to be taken exactly?
So yeah a bit of civility is needed.
I agree with you completely.
Here we go with left or centre stuff again. Christ sake.
I think it's something that can work because it can be tied to jobs, industry, infrastructure etc. But I think you may need a nuclear element in there.
I’ve joined the party after years of putting it off. I fully bought into the Labour manifesto and the Corbyn leadership. But the country rejected it, whether I like it or not.
Brexit is a big reason many northerners voted Tory. Corbyn’s electability being the other major reason.
Labour needs a leader that is more difficult to smear, stronger on anti-semitism and more appealing to those that voted Tory. I like Starmer at the moment, but I’m open to changing my mind.
The likes of Burgon, Phillips, Thornberry and (as much as I like her) Rayner needs to stay clear, though. They aren’t winning the centre ground.
Brexit is a big reason many northerners voted Tory. Corbyn’s electability being the other major reason.
Labour needs a leader that is more difficult to smear, stronger on anti-semitism and more appealing to those that voted Tory. I like Starmer at the moment, but I’m open to changing my mind.
The likes of Burgon, Phillips, Thornberry and (as much as I like her) Rayner needs to stay clear, though. They aren’t winning the centre ground.
Burgon gonna Burgon
Absolutely baffling reply. I can only assume you don't really read what I said.
Centrists or whatever they want to be called nowadays be like "leftists need to accept we're right and they are to blame for everything and feck off" they also be like "civility please, why yous going on about left right centre".
Yeah nobody is saying that.
I’ve said in the other thread people have the wrong idea about momentum. It’s not the activists that are the problem it’s the leadership. They don’t have any power among the activists to sway them in one way or another on how to vote to elect a leader. There will be a lot which will share the same jaundiced vision as the leadership however a lot will be pragmatic and understand what is needed to win power. We absolutely don’t need to disenfranchise these activists as they are brilliant campaigners without whom this election defeat would have likely been much bigger. I urge anyone wanting a Labour government not to delay and join the party as soon as possible because choosing the next leader to bring the whole party together will be the key to winning the next election.
And extreme lefties, or whatever they want be called these days, be like "we all agree with each other and we got lots of votes la! Nothing has to change at all, anyone who thinks that can feck off and vote tory, even though we cry when they do!"
To be fair, if you read the last couple of pages, most have agreed with that already.
I think you also have the wrong idea about what we are saying. Well what those on here are, feck twitter and all that.
That reply was started in the morning to be honest and I haven’t read any replies past Guidos. Only managed to sit down and watch the game now.
Fair enough mate, we have got to the point where most of us agree it's not about purging the likes of you guys who did all the work, it's purely about the leaders.
You're dark.
I’m not a member of momentum. I dedicated some of my time for canvassing and campaigning which was organised by momentum. I met a lot of people and there’s a stark difference between all those idiots given a platform in the media and the people on the ground like Luke Pagarini for example. He was one of the people in the MK area even though I never personally met him. As he said In that Twitter thread from what you heard on the doorstep this could never be expected. It might have been very different up north however.
Good to see Emily Thornberry is starting her bid for the leadership by telling her labour colleagues that lost their seats "I'm glad my constituents aren't as stupid as yours". She is really down to earth is our Emily. Good for her that she represents the patriotic working class constituency of Islington South otherwise she might have been in trouble on Thursday.
She’d alienate the electorate before they’ve even had time to finish their breakfast.
Yeah, very true. Momentum get far too much criticism when they are absolutely pivotal to Labour's electoral performance. The result at the past two elections would undoubtedly have been even worse without their ability to mobilise people on the ground and get them knocking on doors. That's Labour's biggest weapon against the Conservative's stranglehold on the press. Labour have to reach people directly to win votes and you take Momentum out of the equation and they're seriously struggling.
The criticism mainly stems from the centrist types who have created nothing other than an intellectual vacuum once New Labour began to decline. They're very good at criticising but not so good at contributing any positive proposals of their own, other than inane claims about how '*insert centrist name here* would have easily won the 2017/2019 elections' with no explanation as to why or how. "Corbynism" won the argument in the party because it was only the side offering one.
And around and around we go 
Sooner they hold the election the betterAnd around and around we go
It's clearly going to degenerate into a centrist Vs momentum candidate battle in the end (nandy Vs wrong daily?)
The longer it drags out the more fractious it will become
The worst option would be for Corbyn or an nec appointed interim till conference... Hopefully the contest can start in early January