Next Labour leader - Starmer and Rayner win

Ultimate Grib said:
He was touted for leadership in 2015 but turned it down himself for lack of experience. Skeletons usually start to come out after they’re elected and we don’t know how he eats a bacon butty but nothing public as far as his character is concerned. He’s always been London based and constituency wise so he may be seen as part of “the establishment” in rural areas however that can be remedied if he picks a broad representation in his shadow cabinet.

He’s the anti Johnson for me. Strong, measured, doesn’t waffle and methodical. Already held public office successfully, with no scandals and a knight of the realm. Should go down a treat with the little Englanders...

That’s why everyone needs ti register and make sure he gets in rather than Burgeon:nervous:
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Starmer represents working class aspiration too. He came from a humble background to reach the top of society against the odds. Unlike Corbyn he wasn't a coddled posh boy given all the advantages in life. I do worry that he will be framed as a cosmopolitan remainer though.
 
Grinner said:
On reflection you're not wrong. She's a good MP and potential Minister, but she'd be out of her depth as leader. She doesn't have the intellect or gravitas to share a world stage with the likes of Merkel, Trudeau, et al.

I think Starmer is probably the best choice in the long run. He'd have a few years to hone his style and figure out how to appeal to the masses. He has a calm authority about him, is clearly very smart and principled, pragmatic and not too 'loony'.
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I am not sure electing a potential PM is necessarily the priority at this stage. Electing someone who can expunge the corbynite left is the priority and that might require a different set of skills.
 
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Ultimate Grib said:
It needs a leader to reform it and then choose another leader to take it to election? That’s even more ridiculous than Starmer being unelectable because he was a remainer.
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Labour are so riddled with unelectability it might take a whole parliament to root it all out.
 
OohAahMartial said:
Have you seen how Corbyn has been attacked for things he said and did decades ago or not?
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Just checking, bit you've mentioned the attacks on Labour leaders, specifically Corbyn a fair bit.

Yet you've been happy to post two newspaper articles already doing a hatchet job on a potential next leader.


I mean...you get the issue there, right?
 
This appointment is so important for the future of the Labour Party.
I can see another civil war coming up just as in the eighties and though the voters didn't particularly take to Kinnock, his work in ridding the party of militant tendancy laid the foundations for his successors John Smith and finally Tony Blair and shouldn't be underestimated.
I honestly don't know who is capable of doing this . Dan Jarvis maybe as a short term leader to sort the the party out with Starmer or Rayner following but the electorate has clearly not bought in to the momentum agenda and if the Labour Party want to remain a force in British politics it must not go down the route of electing another momentum candidate.
 
esmufc07 said:
Me too. Apparently there is going to be a big push to get morderates to sign up and help elect the new leader and move away from momentum


Rejoin Labour Party to boot out far left, moderates urged

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...o-boot-out-far-left-moderates-urged-3p0bfzvgp
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I've been a member for ages, I'm hoping for a leader that can unite the moderate and more left branches of the membership including activists because we will not will without both. It is entirely possible for a candidate to be both but we cannot be purists and that includes radical centrism. Hoping for a thorough leadership contest to really find somebody with appeal to both sides.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I've rejoined the party to hopefully do my bit to get a leader in that will distance the party from the failed Corbynism experiment.
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Will be interesting to see how far momentum has its claws into the nec... Suspect that whilst this helped them get Corbyn elected they might think new registrations will work against them this time
Like you I have rejoined but I don't rule out a move from momentum (via the nec) trying to limit the vote to people who were members on 11th December
 
sun_tzu said:
Will be interesting to see how far momentum has its claws into the nec... Suspect that whilst this helped them get Corbyn elected they might think new registrations will work against them this time
Like you I have rejoined but I don't rule out a move from momentum (via the nec) trying to limit the vote to people who were members on 11th December
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Think there would be a huge backlash if they tried that. Suspect they will push for more sign ups themselves as a counter measure.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I've rejoined the party to hopefully do my bit to get a leader in that will distance the party from the failed Corbynism experiment.
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I've been a member since 1984 when I was a young buck radical selling Socialist Worker outside the shipyard gates (pretty popular it was too) however I soon realised that policies too far left will never win GE's in this country and I'd much rather have a moderate Labour government than any tory government.
 
People acting like Momentum are Militant reborn is wilful ignorance and if the centre goes into a leadership framing it as a fight with the left the whole party will lose. As @Wolverine says above we need to pull together, talk and find compromise.

As someone who spent time, energy and leave from work to campaign for a Labour MP who I have significant disagreements with, it's insulting to see these think-pieces who want me gone. If Labour are going to break through in the areas they've lost they need people like me who are willing to go door-to-door in the rain actually talking to people, they certainly don't need Guardian or Times opinion page writers.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People acting like Momentum are Militant reborn is wilful ignorance and if the centre goes into a leadership framing it as a fight with the left the whole party will lose. As @Wolverine says above we need to pull together, talk and find compromise.

As someone who spent time, energy and leave from work to campaign for a Labour MP who I have significant disagreements with, it's insulting to see these think-pieces who want me gone. If Labour are going to break through in the areas they've lost they need people like me who are willing to go door-to-door in the rain actually talking to people, they certainly don't need Guardian or Times opinion page writers.
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Good start...
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People acting like Momentum are Militant reborn is wilful ignorance and if the centre goes into a leadership framing it as a fight with the left the whole party will lose. As @Wolverine says above we need to pull together, talk and find compromise.

As someone who spent time, energy and leave from work to campaign for a Labour MP who I have significant disagreements with, it's insulting to see these think-pieces who want me gone. If Labour are going to break through in the areas they've lost they need people like me who are willing to go door-to-door in the rain actually talking to people, they certainly don't need Guardian or Times opinion page writers.
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They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
 
Thought Lisa Nandy was excellent just then on the Marr Show. Would probably rejoin the party if a fleshed out plan along the lines she sketched out just then became the party’s main plan.
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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Since you laugh, name names. And if you guys could read, what people are saying is purge the leadership from power, not kick every single person out of the party.

I mean what, things should stay the same after that humiliation?

Get out of that bubble.
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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Should have done that in 2015:)
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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You've just nearly destroyed the Labour Party and delivered half of your traditional base into the hands of the Tories. Corbynism is a failed experiment and the Labour Party will become irrelevant if it doesn’t leave it behind. There’s no purging though, Corbyn was comfy on the back benches all those years.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You've just nearly destroyed the Labour Party and delivered half of your traditional base into the hands of the Tories. Corbynism is a failed experiment and the Labour Party will become irrelevant if it doesn’t leave it behind. There’s no purging though, Corbyn was comfy on the back benches all those years.
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Typical Labour arrogance.

Want the votes, not the opinions. Now they want to restrict the new votes too. Without a single hint of understanding the irony.
 
Redlambs said:
Good start...
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Pulling together and finding compromise doesn't mean accepting lies and misrepresentation. You can compromise on opinions but you can't compromise on facts.

I'll be just as happy to call out anyone on the left labelling a centre-left candidate a Red Tory or whatever.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
Pulling together and finding compromise doesn't mean accepting lies and misrepresentation. You can compromise on opinions but you can't compromise on facts.

I'll be just as happy to call out anyone on the left labelling a centre-left candidate a Red Tory or whatever.
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But you've made your own argument up, and are now raging against it, do you see that right?

Unless you can point out where anyone has said they are militant and that includes grass roots like yourself?


You want to keep the status quo, that's your opinion. I want the people responsible to step down and Labour have a fresh leadership. No purge of everyone, a change. But look at your comrade here trying to restrict votes now, surely you can see what that means?
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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I think the policies were generally popular, it's the perception of Corbyn and momentum that was and will remain the problem to swathes of heartland Labour voters. That has to change to get those voters back and with the media as it is, I don't know how you go about doing that. The party has to pull together definitely but it also has to acknowledge the electorate are frightened off by anything perceived as too far left.
 
Robbo's Shoulder said:
I think the policies were generally popular, it's the perception of Corbyn and momentum that was and will remain the problem to swathes of heartland Labour voters. That has to change to get those voters back and with the media as it is, I don't know how you go about doing that. The party has to pull together definitely but it also has to acknowledge the electorate are frightened off by anything perceived as too far left.
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And let's not forget the string of loses, especially the last battering.

People seem to conveniently keep forgetting that bit...
 
In isolation most of the policies were/are popular. But throwing them all into a single manifesto was seen to be too radical. Why pledge to nationalise Gas/electricity/water/railways/Royal Mail/broadband at the same time? They’d have been much better served pledging to nationalise the railways only, and then move on from there. Railways is an easy sell, particularly up north as they are a sack of complete shit.

However when you chuck them all in together, on top of everything else they promised to spend, rightly or wrongly it is then perceived as pie in the sky and undeliverable.
 
Redlambs said:
Since you laugh, name names. And if you guys could read, what people are saying is purge the leadership from power, not kick every single person out of the party.

I mean what, things should stay the same after that humiliation?

Get out of that bubble.
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That's like the third time you've banged on at me to name names and i don't really appreciate it. I'm not here to attack people no more than lots of your generic posts at Cornynistas.

There is evidently a strong push from moderates (See Johnson) to eradicate momentum from the party. These people demand a broadchurch but what they mean is we want centrism in power.

Like with the Bernie supporters in the US the grassroots need to be brought on board not attacked. You can't attack them and then complain when they don't bother for the moderate candidate.

My position hasn't changed from before the election. I want a moderate leader like Starmer who doesn't have the baggage Corbyn has but still socialism. Policy wise play to nationalism with a clear immigration plan (don't even need to change anything), be inclusive in championing the best British values and also recognise those who have paid in.

Apart from that I'd keep most of the same policies but favour NHS, Education, Green deal over others. I'm not wedded to nationalisation even if it does make sense but obviously tax increases are required and the richer will need to pay more.

Less popular and situation dependent but I'd drop the remain/rejoin for at least decade. Too many see it as a betrayal and it's time to respect their view.
 
Any candidate that can be framed as a disciple of Corbyn will become toxic by association. The right wing rags will run smear campaigns against them because of it.
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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I think the more the merrier in the party to be honest, as long as they come in in good faith (as I believe 95% of the 2015 intake did). Instead of trying to block left-wing people joining up in 2015 the centre should have engaged the centre/centre-left. I'd be very disappointed if the left weaponised the party machinery in the same way and blocked people who only want the best for the party/country purely on the basis that Corbyn wasn't their first, second or third choice for leader.

The worst thing about the Labour Party is how it's bureaucracy is so open to being manipulated for self-interest and factional squabbling. The left hasn't been innocent of this - in my constituency the old MP stood down before this election. Rather than allowing the local party to arrange it's often selection process, the NEC took control and imposed a 'long-list' of candidates which was the same length as the shortlist which went to ballot. This blocked the popular local left candidate from participating and set up a two-horse race which was narrowly won by an outside left candidate backed by the NEC. By the end of this parliament my constituency will have been represented for 20 years by two candidates parachuted in by the central party, one by Blair and one by the Corbyn-allied NEC.

I expect better from all sides going forward.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Any candidate that can be framed as a disciple of Corbyn will become toxic by association. The right wing rags will run smear campaigns against them because of it.
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What is new. They are always going to do that ,regardless of who Labour choose.Unless you invite Murdoch over for dinner and give him concessions.
 
Redlambs said:
But you've made your own argument up, and are now raging against it, do you see that right?

Unless you can point out where anyone has said they are militant and that includes grass roots like yourself?


You want to keep the status quo, that's your opinion. I want the people responsible to step down and Labour have a fresh leadership. No purge of everyone, a change. But look at your comrade here trying to restrict votes now, surely you can see what that means?
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There are numerous articles, tweets from current and former MPs etc. kicking around that demonstrate the point of view I'm arguing against.

On the rest - I don't expect you to know my views on all this (because why would you?) but please don't assume them. I don't want the 'status quo', I don't want Long-Bailey or Burgon to take over. I don't think they have popular appeal or the nous to do the job. I've argued for Keir Starmer in here (or perhaps the other thread) as my preferred candidate. I've also responded to Smores post rebutting it, although I think you wrote this as I was writing that so you'd have no way to know that I don't agree with that point of view. Again, though, it's best not to assume.
 
My word, where to begin on this trainwreck...


Smores said:
That's like the third time you've banged on at me to name names and i don't really appreciate it.
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For a start, find those posts please. Secondly if you are going to call people out, have the guts to do it properly.


I'm not here to attack people no more than lots of your generic posts at Cornynistas.
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Arrogance. "Generic posts" posts you have clearly failed to read properly, or understand.


There is evidently a strong push from moderates (See Johnson) to eradicate momentum from the party. These people demand a broadchurch but what they mean is we want centrism in power.
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So now that's all of us eh? See above.


Like with the Bernie supporters in the US the grassroots need to be brought on board not attacked. You can't attack them and then complain when they don't bother for the moderate candidate.
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I've clearly said above it's not the grass root supporters, in fact I've said that numerous times in my "generic" posts.


My position hasn't changed from before the election. I want a moderate leader like Starmer who doesn't have the baggage Corbyn has but still socialism. Policy wise play to nationalism with a clear immigration plan (don't even need to change anything), be inclusive in championing the best British values and also recognise those who have paid in.

Apart from that I'd keep most of the same policies but favour NHS, Education, Green deal over others. I'm not wedded to nationalisation even if it does make sense but obviously tax increases are required and the richer will need to pay more.

Less popular and situation dependent but I'd drop the remain/rejoin for at least decade. Too many see it as a betrayal and it's time to respect their view.
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And yet you fail to notice all the times I've said it's not the policies?


I mean, you talk generic, yet you are arguing generic responses to points I haven' even made. You need to step outside that bubble and take a look around. Now, do you also stand by the fact you want to restrict voting, or retract that and admit just how fecked up that position is?
 
Redlambs said:
Typical Labour arrogance.

Want the votes, not the opinions. Now they want to restrict the new votes too. Without a single hint of understanding the irony.
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It was quite clearly a joke Mr Angry Man. It's all we heard from the anti-Corbyn lot at the time on here during all the leadership elections that it was wrong to allow all these new members to vote.

They don't mind now :smirk:

Also I'm not replying to you again. Stop reading my posts as if they only apply to you and responding on that basis, they don't you're not that important.
 
Smores said:
They're also the same people on here who have demanded a broad church now look at them purge purge purge :lol:

Personally I think Labour should listen to the moderates complaints for the last leadership election and they shouldn't allow all these entryists signing up just to vote.

Either Tom Watson was saying the majority of policies were popular but you won't get that level of reflection here.
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The problem with politics and political ideals is that you have to compromise those ideals if you want to win an election.
The British public won't vote in any party they perceive as extreme, either left or right. Corbyn and momentum are perceived as being too far left wing (not my opinion at all btw) and they don't percieve the current tories as right wing as unfortunately they share their views on brexit and immigration.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
I think the more the merrier in the party to be honest, as long as they come in in good faith (as I believe 95% of the 2015 intake did). Instead of trying to block left-wing people joining up in 2015 the centre should have engaged the centre/centre-left. I'd be very disappointed if the left weaponised the party machinery in the same way and blocked people who only want the best for the party/country purely on the basis that Corbyn wasn't their first, second or third choice for leader.

The worst thing about the Labour Party is how it's bureaucracy is so open to being manipulated for self-interest and factional squabbling. The left hasn't been innocent of this - in my constituency the old MP stood down before this election. Rather than allowing the local party to arrange it's often selection process, the NEC took control and imposed a 'long-list' of candidates which was the same length as the shortlist which went to ballot. This blocked the popular local left candidate from participating and set up a two-horse race which was narrowly won by an outside left candidate backed by the NEC. By the end of this parliament my constituency will have been represented for 20 years by two candidates parachuted in by the central party, one by Blair and one by the Corbyn-allied NEC.

I expect better from all sides going forward.
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I agree. If you guys actually read my posts instead of tarring me with what is said elsewhere by others, I think we'd reach a mid-ground between us easily.


jeff_goldblum said:
There are numerous articles, tweets from current and former MPs etc. kicking around that demonstrate the point of view I'm arguing against.

On the rest - I don't expect you to know my views on all this (because why would you?) but please don't assume them. I don't want the 'status quo', I don't want Long-Bailey or Burgon to take over. I don't think they have popular appeal or the nous to do the job. I've argued for Keir Starmer in here (or perhaps the other thread) as my preferred candidate. I've also responded to Smores post rebutting it, although I think you wrote this as I was writing that so you'd have no way to know that I don't agree with that point of view. Again, best not to assume.
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The problem is though, you've already assumed my views! You are arguing at us who want the leadership to change on the back of what you have read elsewhere and came at us in here hard as if we want to kick you out, did you not?

I thank you for your hard work mate, I wouldn't want someone like you who has done far more than myself to help the party out. You need to understand that. However, it's clearer to me on the outside that the momentum leadership has failed, and failed hard. It is definitely keeping the status quo by going with Smores plan to stop me voting, or the leadership (and partly yourself imo) framing it as if they go the polices have to. Which is wrong.


Smores said:
It was quite clearly a joke Mr Angry Man. It's all we heard from the anti-Corbyn lot at the time on here during all the leadership elections that it was wrong to allow all these new members to vote.

They don't mind now :smirk:

Also I'm not replying to you again. Stop reading my posts as if they only apply to you and responding on that basis, they don't you're not that important.
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What is wrong with you? It's like debating a little kid :lol:

Nice backtracking when called out btw. You are part of the problem, well done.
 
Drifter said:
What is new. They are always going to do that ,regardless of who Labour choose.Unless you invite Murdoch over for dinner and give him concessions.
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It’s imperative that the next Labour leader is as smear proof as possible. The Corbynism candidate are at the worst end of the scale on that count.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
People acting like Momentum are Militant reborn is wilful ignorance and if the centre goes into a leadership framing it as a fight with the left the whole party will lose. As @Wolverine says above we need to pull together, talk and find compromise.

As someone who spent time, energy and leave from work to campaign for a Labour MP who I have significant disagreements with, it's insulting to see these think-pieces who want me gone. If Labour are going to break through in the areas they've lost they need people like me who are willing to go door-to-door in the rain actually talking to people, they certainly don't need Guardian or Times opinion page writers.
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You and folk like you aren't part of the problem at all. I've had a million arguments with people on the left here since 2015 but I know the party is pretty fecked if people like yourself, Shamwow and Smores feel estranged from it. You guys were right that the party needed to move to make a full-throated argument against austerity. But you can already see from the words of the higher ups in Momentum and prominent activists online that the spin here is to blame Brexit and Brexit alone with no introspection that, just maybe, the manifesto went too far and Corbyn was a liability. The "new media" that have popped up like Evolve, Skwawkbox and Novara are all at it, and I've no doubt it's as party of a strategy by the outgoing leadership (particularly Milne) to secure their chosen successor. And my worry is it's going to work. And yes, I worry that the right in Labour is going to be too vociferous in their criticism and it's going to end up fanning the flames of that narrative. Labour's a tinderbox right now and it could really easily split properly if things go the wrong way.
 
Drifter said:
What is new. They are always going to do that ,regardless of who Labour choose.Unless you invite Murdoch over for dinner and give him concessions.
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Do you not think the next leader should be someone who is better equipped to handle that though?

I'm not saying I know who, but surely anything is better than dragging their heels and most cases not even predicting it like Corbyn at times.
 
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