Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions

Gio said:
Possibly aye. But it could lead to an absurd situation where for instance:

1-0 - 3 votes
2-1
3-0
3-2
2-3 - 2 votes
0-3 - 2 votes
1-2 - 2 votes
0-1 - 2 votes

So normally an 8-3 defeat turns into a 1-0 win.

Tricky business this scoreline stuff.
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True.
 
Gio said:
So we would just total up the goals on each side and that's the result?

Pro's - introduces realistic scorelines; freshens things up
Con's - potentially disproportionate effect of one or two voters with an axe to grind; takes a wee bit of working out
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Hm. Yes - the axe grinding point is a valid one. For that matter, in an otherwise tight match an innocuous outlier vote could be unduly disproportionate.

One possibility is to count it step wise:

1. Who has the most votes (regardless of scorelines) in his favour?
2. Who has the best "goal difference" based on the scorelines people have voted for?

1-0 --- 2 votes
2-1 --- 1 vote
3-0 --- 0 votes
3-2 --- 1 votes
2-3 --- 2 votes
0-3 --- 1 vote
1-2 --- 1 vote
0-1 --- 0 votes

Four votes say A wins, four say B wins. Draw. But:

Goal difference:
A: 7-3
B: 11-5

B wins on "goal difference".

It may still be vulnerable to outlier votes and the like, but it's less random than penalties (which people seem bored of on the whole).

Summed up: Format remains essentially the same - but the scorelines add a bit of flavour, and can be used to determine the winner in the case of a draw.
 
My 2 cents thought on that goal difference- voting system, that is an absolutely brilliant idea. Although the further the competition stages are (SF to Final), you can expect low scoring games, thus a draw is more likely.

Also, there shouldn't be the like of 4-0 score option, as it could unbalance the overall score.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Hm. Yes - the axe grinding point is a valid one. For that matter, in an otherwise tight match an innocuous outlier vote could be unduly disproportionate.

One possibility is to count it step wise:

1. Who has the most votes (regardless of scorelines) in his favour?
2. Who has the best "goal difference" based on the scorelines people have voted for?

1-0 --- 2 votes
2-1 --- 1 vote
3-0 --- 0 votes
3-2 --- 1 votes
2-3 --- 2 votes
0-3 --- 1 vote
1-2 --- 1 vote
0-1 --- 0 votes

Four votes say A wins, four say B wins. Draw. But:

Goal difference:
A: 7-3
B: 11-5

B wins on "goal difference".

It may still be vulnerable to outlier votes and the like, but it's less random than penalties (which people seem bored of on the whole).

Summed up: Format remains essentially the same - but the scorelines add a bit of flavour, and can be used to determine the winner in the case of a draw.
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Like it. Either this or you just count goal difference to decide winner. If it's +-0 then the result with the most votes decides the winner rather than penalties. If several results have the same amount of votes you combine the goals in them and whoever has scored more goals wins.

Make sense? :lol:
 
Sheep Draft sign up list:

1. The Stain
2. Joga Bonito
3. Chesterlestreet
4. Sjor Bepo
5. Snow
6. EAP
7. MJJ
8. Marty1968
9. Stobzilla
10. Skizzo
11. mazhar13
12. Invictus
13. Tuppet
14. Isotope
15. Enigma_87
16.

One spot left people.
 
I like the idea of the new scoreline system. It should make for more interesting discussions, increase the value and importance of defences and tactics, and make the drafts more fun in general.
 
A simpler alternative to consider would be:

- Player A wins by 1 goal
- Player A wins by 2 goals
- Player B wins by 1 goal
- Player B wins by 2 goals

Can total up the goals to get the winner. Even axe grinders can only have 1 extra goal as max impact. Hopefully we don't get any.
Or just get the option with max votes as winner.

Either works. This also eliminates having to distinguish between a 1-2 and 2-3 scorelines.

Though the fundamental problem remains. There are many close games which do not get votes at all as voters can't choose. That problem will continue and maybe get enhanced a bit with scoreline modals.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Possible way to make top class keepers count for something:

If we go with the multiple scorelines format, a manager sporting a top class keeper (as defined by the draft master or a committee) is allowed to vote (1-0) for himself, and the vote will count.

It is possible to implement this even without using the multiple scorelines format: Having a top class keeper allows you to vote for yourself, i.e. a top class keeper is worth an extra vote.
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I'd second this but we do have to be careful about the classification of the top tier. Actually, I'd prefer it if we went by the disparity between the two goalies deciding the one vote advantage, as opposed to sporting a top tier goalie. For instance, if one team features Maier and the other has Viktor/Kopke who are mighty fine goalies but not all time greats, it doesn't seem fair that the latter is essentially penalised for it. Perhaps looking at the quality differential might be better and that vote should be awarded if there is a really significant gap between both the goalies (say a van der sar vs Lehmann etc). Tbf, I don't really disagree with your initial suggestion and think that it's a good one, as sporting a top class goalie should reflect on the scoreline in some way - at least in a more tangible and significant manner than it does now. However, the classification of a top class goalie is quite tricky and also quite subjective (Casillas can be quite divisive for instance) and it can lead to managers feeling aggrieved.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Possible way to make top class keepers count for something:

If we go with the multiple scorelines format, a manager sporting a top class keeper (as defined by the draft master or a committee) is allowed to vote (1-0) for himself, and the vote will count.

It is possible to implement this even without using the multiple scorelines format: Having a top class keeper allows you to vote for yourself, i.e. a top class keeper is worth an extra vote.
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Joga Bonito said:
I'd second this but we do have to be careful about the classification of the top tier. Actually, I'd prefer it if we went by the disparity between the two goalies deciding the one vote advantage, as opposed to sporting a top tier goalie. For instance, if one team features Maier and the other has Viktor/Kopke who are mighty fine goalies but not all time greats, it doesn't seem fair that the latter is essentially penalised for it. Perhaps looking at the quality differential might be better and that vote should be awarded if there is a really significant gap between both the goalies (say a van der sar vs Lehmann etc). Tbf, I don't really disagree with your initial suggestion and think that it's a good one, as sporting a top class goalie should reflect on the scoreline in some way - at least in a more tangible and significant manner than it does now. However, the classification of a top class goalie is quite tricky and also quite subjective (Casillas can be quite divisive for instance) and it can lead to managers feeling aggrieved.
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Taking GK as a position alone is not right, as he's part of a defensive unit. Having a GOAT GK with a mediocre CB pair should not get any advantage in a normal match. Doesn't make sense at all.

For me, GK's should get advantage in a penalty shoot-out only.
 
Joga Bonito said:
I'd second this but we do have to be careful about the classification of the top tier. Actually, I'd prefer it if we went by the disparity between the two goalies deciding the one vote advantage, as opposed to sporting a top tier goalie. For instance, if one team features Maier and the other has Viktor/Kopke who are mighty fine goalies but not all time greats, it doesn't seem fair that the latter is essentially penalised for it. Perhaps looking at the quality differential might be better and that vote should be awarded if there is a really significant gap between both the goalies (say a van der sar vs Lehmann etc). Tbf, I don't really disagree with your initial suggestion and think that it's a good one, as sporting a top class goalie should reflect on the scoreline in some way - at least in a more tangible and significant manner than it does now. However, the classification of a top class goalie is quite tricky and also quite subjective (Casillas can be quite divisive for instance) and it can lead to managers feeling aggrieved.
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We can use the picking number order. Any Gk is picked on 1-3 round, has 'point' advantage over the ones picked up on later rounds.
 
Isotope said:
We can use the picking number order. Any Gk is picked on 1-3 round, has 'point' advantage over the ones picked up on later rounds.
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And what if someone picks Yashin as a 4th pick, for example? Bad suggestion that takes away a possibility of picking a gem late in the drafting order
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Hm. Yes - the axe grinding point is a valid one. For that matter, in an otherwise tight match an innocuous outlier vote could be unduly disproportionate.

One possibility is to count it step wise:

1. Who has the most votes (regardless of scorelines) in his favour?
2. Who has the best "goal difference" based on the scorelines people have voted for?

1-0 --- 2 votes
2-1 --- 1 vote
3-0 --- 0 votes
3-2 --- 1 votes
2-3 --- 2 votes
0-3 --- 1 vote
1-2 --- 1 vote
0-1 --- 0 votes

Four votes say A wins, four say B wins. Draw. But:

Goal difference:
A: 7-3
B: 11-5

B wins on "goal difference".

It may still be vulnerable to outlier votes and the like, but it's less random than penalties (which people seem bored of on the whole).

Summed up: Format remains essentially the same - but the scorelines add a bit of flavour, and can be used to determine the winner in the case of a draw.
Click to expand...
That's a very good take and adds a lot more realism. Much better than penos.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
For me, GK's should get advantage in a penalty shoot-out only.
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I tend to agree with this if we look simply at the alternatives proposed thus far. It would, indeed, be unfair to give an outright advantage to a manager who sports a GOAT keeper behind a pair of run-of-the-mill CBs if his opponent is sporting a run-of-the-mill keeper behind a GOAT combo.

The idea of looking at the discrepancy in keeper quality - whilst also factoring in the overall quality of the defences on display - strikes me as impracticable and potentially a bit random. If the keeper is to count for something tangible, that something has to be set for my money - not subject to interpretation in every particular case.

In shootouts you can easily implement some such standard. It's generally unproblematic for a draft master (or a committee of neutrals) to determine which keepers stand out to a degree that merits a handicap boost.

A committee can even rank the keepers involved from 1-16 before the matches commence.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Taking GK as a position alone is not right, as he's part of a defensive unit. Having a GOAT GK with a mediocre CB pair should not get any advantage in a normal match. Doesn't make sense at all.

For me, GK's should get advantage in a penalty shoot-out only.
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Chesterlestreet said:
I tend to agree with this if we look simply at the alternatives proposed thus far. It would, indeed, be unfair to give an outright advantage to a manager who sports a GOAT keeper behind a pair of run-of-the-mill CBs if his opponent is sporting a run-of-the-mill keeper behind a GOAT combo.

The idea of looking at the discrepancy in keeper quality - whilst also factoring in the overall quality of the defences on display - strikes me as impracticable and potentially a bit random. If the keeper is to count for something tangible, that something has to be set for my money - not subject to interpretation in every particular case.

In shootouts you can easily implement some such standard. It's generally unproblematic for a draft master (or a committee of neutrals) to determine which keepers stand out to a degree that merits a handicap boost.

A committee can even rank the keepers involved from 1-16 before the matches commence.
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Aye, that's fair enough. There are just too many factors to consider, in giving the goalie an outright advantage in the voting stakes, perhaps penalties might be the best way to go about it.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Aye, that's fair enough. There are just too many factors to consider, in giving the goalie an outright advantage in the voting stakes, perhaps penalties might be the best way to go about it.
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Too many factors, yes - unless one reforms the entire thing to a degree which I doubt anyone is prepared to do.

On that note, I have been toying with several ideas for a while. One such is to do an experimental draft in a completely different format - that is, not reforming the current format but ditching it altogether.

A basic idea in that context is this:

After drafting has finished, the players drafted are awarded points by neutrals through some sort of voting process (this could be done in various ways, some more involved and perhaps more impracticable than others). Based on this, every team going into the knockout stage will be valued at a certain amount of points. These points may then be considered the team's handicap going into the match - and the outcome of the match is decided after comparing poll results and handicap.

Basically, you may lose narrowly on votes (because you've not set up brilliantly from a tactical perspective, for instance - or for whatever random reason) and still progress if your default points are sufficient.

In such a system, top notch keepers would be instantly valuable, as they would add significantly more to the handicap than some ordinary schmuck would.

PS This is NOT something I propose for the upcoming draft, it's a completely different idea.
 
Stobzilla said:
every five votes for a team scores a goal. count them up at the end.
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Don't see how that would change anything, to be honest. We could do that with the current format, just dressing up the vote count as a more "realistic" score.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Don't see how that would change anything, to be honest. We could do that with the current format, just dressing up the vote count as a more "realistic" score.
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yeah but if you don't reveal the results then things like 14-15 matter, or something, I don't know if you work it with your goalie handicap system then it might work.
 
The Stain said:
Sheep Draft sign up list:

1. The Stain
2. Joga Bonito
3. Chesterlestreet
4. Sjor Bepo
5. Snow
6. EAP
7. MJJ
8. Marty1968
9. Stobzilla
10. Skizzo
11. mazhar13
12. Invictus
13. Tuppet
14. Isotope
15. Enigma_87
16.

One spot left people.
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That final spot still open? Also, what are the criteria for this sheep draft?
 
harms said:
And what if someone picks Yashin as a 4th pick, for example? Bad suggestion that takes away a possibility of picking a gem late in the drafting order
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There will be always an outlier. But the base thought is better gk usually picked up earlier.
 
Isotope said:
There will be always an outlier. But the base thought is better gk usually picked up earlier.
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I'm not entirely on board with what you propose, but if such a system were introduced it could be tweaked easily to serve the same purpose (i.e. what you propose): For instance, one could scrap the fixed rounds idea and just go with a ranking of sorts based on which keepers are picked up first. Yashin, for instance, would in all likelihood be the first keeper picked regardless of which round he was actually picked in.

But I think the system has flaws regardless. Tactical drafting will often determine what order people pick their players in, more than how good they are, individually and objectively.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I'm not entirely on board with what you propose, but if such a system were introduced it could be tweaked easily to serve the same purpose (i.e. what you propose): For instance, one could scrap the fixed rounds idea and just go with a ranking of sorts based on which keepers are picked up first. Yashin, for instance, would in all likelihood be the first keeper picked regardless of which round he was actually picked in.

But I think the system has flaws regardless. Tactical drafting will often determine what order people pick their players in, more than how good they are, individually and objectively.
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Yeah. It might not be the best solution for the kind of sheep draft, or even nation based draft. It could work on more straight forward draft, like the decade/era's ones
 
do we know the main criteria? all-time draft or born after 40/50/60/70s?
 
@Gio can i be involved in the PM conversations for the laughs please? I really wanted to play this but will be on vacation for most of it
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
It's the most fun of all draft formats. You'll enjoy it.
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It's also the one that messes with your head more than any other! Play it safe and you could miss out on a real gem, go for the big names and you could end up with a sheep very easily!! These ones drive me to drink.....actually no that's my kids that do that! ;o)
 
"Edgar Allan Pillow, post: 18392195, member: 57041"]You get your Kids drive you to the pub? :eek:[/QUOTE]
Haha
 
List of Drafts:

Draft I: Cal?'s - New Fantasy Draft (Winner: Cal?)
Draft II: Polaroid's - Retro Fantasy Draft - all players born in 60s (Winner: Polaroid)
Draft III: Cal?'s - 70s Fantasy Draft (Winner: Cling Bak)
Draft IV: Brwned's - 50s Fantasy Draft (Winner: Brwned)
Draft V: Premier League 20 Season Draft (Winner: Gio)
Draft VI: All -Time Fantasy Draft (Winner: antohan)
Draft VII: Theon's - Champions League Draft (Winner: Gio)
Draft VIII: Aldo's - Decades Draft (Winner: Theon)
Draft IX: Future Stars Draft (Winner: NM/Snow)
Draft X: World Cup Peak Draft (Winner: Annahnomoss)
Draft XI: Aldo's - Sheep Draft (Winner Gio)
Draft XII: Polaroid's - Transfer Muppet Draft (Winner: MJJ)
Draft XIII: Annahnomoss's - Auction Draft (Winner: Cutch/Annah)
Draft XIV: rpitroda's - Criteria Draft (Winner: Aldo)
Draft XV: EAP's - Reality Draft (Winner: antohan)
Draft XVI: Annahnomoss's - Managers Draft (Winner: EAP)
Draft XVII: crappycraperson's - British Irish Draft (Winner: MJJ)
Draft XVIII: EAP's - Modern Era Draft (Winner: Theon)
Draft XIX: Skizzo's - Second Sheep Draft (Winner: Cutch)
Draft XX: Balu's - Euro Draft (Winner: Joga Bonito)
Draft XXI: Annahnomoss's - All Time Auction Draft (Winner: Cal?)
Draft XXII: Skizzo's All Time Premier League Draft (Winner: Skizzo/Pat)
Draft XXIII: EAP's Chain Draft (Winner: The Stain)
Draft XXIV: Aldo's 40s Retro Draft (Winner: Gio/Theon)
Draft XXV: Gio's Sheep Draft v3 (Winner: TBC)

Winners:

4x: Gio
2x: antohan, Theon, MJJ, Cutch, Cal?
1x: Polaroid, Cling Bak, Brwned, NM, Annahnomoss, Aldo, EAP, Joga Bonito, Skizzo, The Stain
 
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