New Stadium or Revamp Old Trafford | Aim is to build 100k seater stadium

[sparx99]

I've yet to see anything credible how your first point could be done. Every map someone posts with some placement of a new stadium always overlaps it with the train depot. I'm 100% behind a new stadium, a modern take on the current Old Trafford style would be nice, but I could see us having to do a Spurs to do it.

This article from a year or two ago shows it could be possible with only a small portion of the freight terminal being used. They just need to stack the containers a bit closer!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...elopment-plans-part-glazers-pr-offensive-win/

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Think they also need a stadium that can be utilised properly for other events to bring money in. Increasing the capacity will do that to some extent, but staging other things could make a really big difference.

 

[matherto]

Think they also need a stadium that can be utilised properly for other events to bring money in. Increasing the capacity will do that to some extent, but staging other things could make a really big difference.

If they can do a pitch similar to the Bernabeu it'd be fantastic for that.

I know she's done the Etihad before but Swifty picking Anfield over what should be a great venue at OT is something we should be looking at.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

If they can do a pitch similar to the Bernabeu it'd be fantastic for that.

I know she's done the Etihad before but Swifty picking Anfield over what should be a great venue at OT is something we should be looking at.

Precisely.

 

[SouthMancRed]

This article from a year or two ago shows it could be possible with only a small portion of the freight terminal being used. They just need to stack the containers a bit closer!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...elopment-plans-part-glazers-pr-offensive-win/

Just swap them part of the W3 car park for the bit we'd need!

 

[711]

I've yet to see anything credible how your first point could be done. Every map someone posts with some placement of a new stadium always overlaps it with the train depot. I'm 100% behind a new stadium, a modern take on the current Old Trafford style would be nice, but I could see us having to do a Spurs to do it.

The ones I've seen always show the new stadium to have exactly the same size footprint as the current one, which makes it pointless. The meeting, refreshment and corporate areas need to be much larger than now to maximise revenue. As others have said let's have people arriving early or staying afterwards, for revenue and to make transport practicable for, hopefully, a 100,000 stadium.

 

[FrankDrebin]

If we're going to have a new OT in the same area, you may need to knock down the current one.

 

[matherto]

If we're going to have a new OT in the same area, you may need to knock down the current one.

Of course, so you do it like Spurs did.

Or Bilbao

Or Benfica

For me the logical choice is the knock the North Stand down and NW corner then reposition the pitch to suit building a stand NW of where the ground is now and then knock whatever's nearest down and keep going so you're left with the south stand (presumably with a temporary stand to line up with the pitch) and three constructed sides of the new ground, then finally knock the south down and finish up so we're further away from the railway line and we can have a bigger stand than we currently have.

We could make extensive use of temporary seating to keep capacity up.

Stays where we are now (okay not absolutely bang on but still) and gives us room to work.

 

[RoyH1]

@matherto Thanks for posting those images. They illustrate quite clearly some of the possibilities we have for building and keeping our own location.

 

[matherto]

@matherto Thanks for posting those images. They illustrate quite clearly some of the possibilities we have for building and keeping our own location.

If you wanted to go further afield I believe the Yankees did it when they built their new stadium. Certainly not out of the question for the world's leading architects and construction workers/contractors to work it out and you'd imagine if INEOS/Glazers are serious about it the bidding war will be immense.

EDIT - Yankees just moved a block and built up alongside but the same sort of process really when considering access and health and safety and so on I'd imagine. As long as the council and police sign off on things for matchdays then we're set.

 

[Dan]

I thought United owned more land than what this article shows.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ground-and-what-will-it-mean-for-old-trafford

 

[711]

For me the logical choice is the knock the North Stand down and NW corner then reposition the pitch to suit building a stand NW of where the ground is now and then knock whatever's nearest down and keep going so you're left with the south stand (presumably with a temporary stand to line up with the pitch) and three constructed sides of the new ground, then finally knock the south down and finish up so we're further away from the railway line and we can have a bigger stand than we currently have.

We could make extensive use of temporary seating to keep capacity up.

Stays where we are now (okay not absolutely bang on but still) and gives us room to work.

That's the sort of option I think, rather than the silly ones shown previously as having the same size stadium as we have now. While such a new one could be a bit bigger footprint than now I'm not sure it would be significantly bigger though. I think a new site altogether would be better.

 

[matherto]

I thought United owned more land than what this article shows.

https://www.skysports.com/football/...ground-and-what-will-it-mean-for-old-trafford

From that article

Spoiler

Incredibly crude two second job in paint but assuming you could get permission to bridge the canal then I reckon we fit something bigger than the current footprint in here. Would mean swapping the pitch 90 degrees and the space isn't exactly a normal shape but as said, you can get creative with stands to give it some character.

 

[Fr. Todd Unctious]

From that article

Spoiler

Incredibly crude two second job in paint but assuming you could get permission to bridge the canal then I reckon we fit something bigger than the current footprint in here. Would mean swapping the pitch 90 degrees and the space isn't exactly a normal shape but as said, you can get creative with stands to give it some character.

Bridging the Canal would definitely help. The Canal End Stand in Croke Park in Dublin backs onto a canal (obviously!). The turnstiles are on the otherside of the Canal to the Stand and you cross over it then once you go through the turnstiles

 

[sparx99]

The ones I've seen always show the new stadium to have exactly the same size footprint as the current one, which makes it pointless. The meeting, refreshment and corporate areas need to be much larger than now to maximise revenue. As others have said let's have people arriving early or staying afterwards, for revenue and to make transport practicable for, hopefully, a 100,000 stadium.

I'd argue you don't need a massively bigger footprint with a more modern construction method. Steeper seating for a start and then you can have more open concourses etc without needing a hugely larger building. The lowest tier at Old Trafford seems particularly shallow compared to other grounds.

 

[sparx99]

From that article

Spoiler

Incredibly crude two second job in paint but assuming you could get permission to bridge the canal then I reckon we fit something bigger than the current footprint in here. Would mean swapping the pitch 90 degrees and the space isn't exactly a normal shape but as said, you can get creative with stands to give it some character.

Something like this would you to build the new stadium while gradually knocking down the old stadium and you could retain the South Stand and pitch for the history and Reserve/Womens team. Bonus points for having the canal right alongside the back of the stand. Somewhat similar to how Fulham's new stand runs along the Thames.

 

[711]

I'd argue you don't need a massively bigger footprint with a more modern construction method. Steeper seating for a start and then you can have more open concourses etc without needing a hugely larger building. The lowest tier at Old Trafford seems particularly shallow compared to other grounds.

That would be good. I do go along with the build the new one at 90 degrees over the old one approach though, I can't see anything else working really. Even though we would have to ask City to share

 

[SAF is the GOAT]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't city and Westham were using the same way and fund their stadiums with public money?

 

[next_number_seven]

Bridging the Canal would definitely help. The Canal End Stand in Croke Park in Dublin backs onto a canal (obviously!). The turnstiles are on the otherside of the Canal to the Stand and you cross over it then once you go through the turnstiles

It's funny how people say "Old Trafford is crumbling" when compared to most stadia in Ireland (excluding Croke Park and the Aviva and PUC) it's a cathedral.

Most GAA and LOI stadia in Ireland are horrendous.

All things being equal, I think just a brand new stadium is the best option.

Although I think history and culture is hugely important.

I like the idea of a Granddad taking his grandson to a game and saying "I saw Best, Charlton, Robson, Cantona, Giggs, Rooney, Ronaldo etc play here".
"I saw Fergie in that dugout etc"

 

[Hugh Jass]

It's funny how people say "Old Trafford is crumbling."when compared to most stadia in Ireland (excluding Croke Park and the Aviva and PUC) it's a cathedral.

Most GAA and LOI stadia in Ireland are horrendous.

The bathrooms as well in GAA stadiums, havent been cleaned in about 60 years.

 

[next_number_seven]

The bathrooms as well in GAA stadiums, havent been cleaned in about 60 years.

They're brutal. They're rarely full though so it's difficult to justify a big investment. Even PUC is a huge white elephant.

 

[neon_badger]

Correct me if I'm wrong here but didn't city and Westham were using the same way and fund their stadiums with public money?

No

 

[next_number_seven]

It's funny how when Arsenal and Spurs decided to build new stadia, it wasn't particularly divisive amongst their fans, as far as I can recall.
I know that Arsenal fans complained about the atmosphere in their new stadium.

 

[Mainoonited99]

It's funny how when Arsenal and Spurs decided to build new stadia, it wasn't particularly divisive amongst their fans, as far as I can recall.
I know that Arsenal fans complained about the atmosphere in their new stadium.

To be fair it's not like they created that many great memories at their old grounds.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

Don’t know how to articulate this, but if we do build a new ground I hope they keep the “closer to the pitch” thing that OT has compared to say Arsenal’s Emirates or West Ham’s London Stadium

This is my biggest wish as well. I fecking hate how far fans are away from the pitch in some of these newer stadiums.

 

[Revaulx]

Just goes to show, if we could do something like this to the Sir Bobby stand, rework the whole roof/facade and renovate the other stands we get ‘Old Trafford’ on the same site and a state of the art stadium - like the Bernabeu.
Will be interesting to see which way it goes.

Well we couldn’t quite do that to the Sir Bobby ‘cos there’s a railway line in the way. Though I’m sure there is some scope for expansion there. A new roof would obviously be a massive improvement.

I don’t know if restricting any refurb/rebuild to the current footprint would be worth it though. The seats would still be jammed in; any thinning out would cause a significant fall in capacity.

 

[Pscholes18]

Don’t know how to articulate this, but if we do build a new ground I hope they keep the “closer to the pitch” thing that OT has compared to say Arsenal’s Emirates or West Ham’s London Stadium

This! The supporters should be right on the pitch.

 

[Rams]

No

Yes. Ethiad was built for the commonwealth games using public money. The Olympic stadium was built with public money and by now the National Lottery. West Ham are leasing the stadium. But don’t let a few facts cloud your opinions.

 

[next_number_seven]

Don’t know how to articulate this, but if we do build a new ground I hope they keep the “closer to the pitch” thing that OT has compared to say Arsenal’s Emirates or West Ham’s London Stadium

The Emirates was poorly designed in hindsight.

Nowadays atmosphere is an important part of the design process.

I think Everton's new stadium has steepest possible stands by the regulations.

I'd imagine we'll do similar with a "red wall" also.

It's funny how Everton have a better stadium than us now despite being impoverished for 30 years and winning basically nothing and scrapping relegation battles lots of years.

 

[Rams]

Yes. Ethiad was built for the commonwealth games using public money. The Olympic stadium was built with public money and by now the National Lottery. West Ham are leasing the stadium. But don’t let a few facts cloud your opinions.

just to add on, City are also leasing the Ethiad btw.

 

[next_number_seven]

It'll never be where the busby babes played or where I saw Cantona make his debut, or Rooney score against city. It will be a new stadium with no connection to the players and teams that have come before. On the other hand it might have some great facilities!!

Football is losing enough of its history and tradition, if we do anything I would rather it was a rebuild on the same site than some new stadium somewhere else.

This is how I feel.
You can't quantify these things.
I know the stands have already been rebuilt and new turf laid, but still, it matters.

 

[Rado_N]

If you wanted to go further afield I believe the Yankees did it when they built their new stadium. Certainly not out of the question for the world's leading architects and construction workers/contractors to work it out and you'd imagine if INEOS/Glazers are serious about it the bidding war will be immense.

EDIT - Yankees just moved a block and built up alongside but the same sort of process really when considering access and health and safety and so on I'd imagine. As long as the council and police sign off on things for matchdays then we're set.

Denver Broncos did the same thing when they rebuilt their historic Mile High Stadium:

The new one was built in the car park of the old one, then the old one demolished.

They even now have a miniature version of the historic stadium, with 170 odd seats.

 

[lex talionis]

Modern architectural and engineering principles, provided the money is there to do this right, could make for a magnificent fan experience inside and outside the stadium. You'd never want to see an atrocity like some of the relatively new American stadia, but with the right love and care OT could be rebuilt in a way that has a massive element of OT in and around it.

 

[neon_badger]

Yes. Ethiad was built for the commonwealth games using public money. The Olympic stadium was built with public money and by now the National Lottery. West Ham are leasing the stadium. But don’t let a few facts cloud your opinions.

I'm aware they were built with public money, however building stadiums for the commonwealth games/olympics as part of a much needed regeneration plan (particularly in the case of Eastlands) is not the same as handing over public funds set aside for a leveling up project (which is already failing) to a hugely profitable company because they want a shiny new stadium to make more profit. Yes these clubs may have benefited, and there was some dodgy goings on with City and the council but someone was always going to receive these stadiums as a lease, doesn't mean we should get a government handout.

 

[Rams]

I'm aware they were built with public money, however building stadiums for the commonwealth games/olympics as part of a much needed regeneration plan (particularly in the case of Eastlands) is not the same as handing over public funds set aside for a leveling up project (which is already failing) to a hugely profitable company because they want a shiny new stadium to make more profit. Yes these clubs may have benefited, and there was some dodgy goings on with City and the council but someone was always going to receive these stadiums as a lease, doesn't mean we should get a government handout.

No, instead they lease it for 250years to an investment group owned by the Abu Dhabi state.
Obviously there’s a public benefit from redevelopment of Old Trafford and the surrounding area, as well as benefits that the Manchester United brand brings to the local economy, and the football club’s benefits to the local community. Looking at the wider picture there’s plenty of reasons for the government to help out, as they do and have done with many sports infrastructures used privately.

 

[neon_badger]

No, instead they lease it for 250years to an investment group owned by the Abu Dhabi state.
Obviously there’s a public benefit from redevelopment of Old Trafford and the surrounding area, as well as benefits that the Manchester United brand brings to the local economy, and the football club’s benefits to the local community. Looking at the wider picture there’s plenty of reasons for the government to help out, as they do and have done with many sports infrastructures used privately.

I'm not sure what benefits a new stadium will bring that the current one doesn't provide and the same applies for the local community, government help is needed elsewhere. A huge chunk of stadium revenue comes from catering yet 46 restaurants closed in manchester last year and many more other catering businesses, many citing the government's unwillingness to yield on VAT. I get the desire to be the best and a competitiveness with City but they didn't receive public funds to build a new stadium, they just happened to be in the right place at the right time and have managed to negotiate a suspect deal, if I recall they offered a senior Councillor a role on the board of directors? We don't need to be like city, we also don't need government funds particularly if it only passes through us to American via the Cayman Islands.

 

[stevoc]

I didn't think that tunnel was built until long after WW2. I've done some digging online and found pictures of OT in the 60s and 70s with just a pathway along the outside of the South Stand too which seems to support this. The old players tunnel in the South Stand is still the original if that's what you mean?

The old players tunnel in the South Stand I believe is the Munich tunnel, it was renamed in 2008.

The dugout is in the centre of the Sir Bobby Charlton Stand, raised above pitch level to give the manager and his coaches an elevated view of the game. Each team's dugout flanks the old players' tunnel, which was used until 1993. The old tunnel is the only remaining part of the original 1910 stadium, having survived the bombing that destroyed much of the stadium during the Second World War.[73] On 6 February 2008, the tunnel was renamed the Munich Tunnel, as a memorial for the 50th anniversary of the 1958 Munich air disaster.[74] The current tunnel is in the South-West corner of the ground, and doubles as an entrance for the emergency services. If large vehicles require access, then the seating above the tunnel can be raised by up to 25 feet (7.6 m).[75] The tunnel leads up to the players' dressing room, via the television interview area, and the players' lounge. Both the home and away dressing rooms were re-furbished for the 2018–19 season, and the corridor leading to the two was widened and separated to keep the opposing teams apart.[76]

 

[stevoc]

I think if we have enough land adjacent to Old Trafford, to build a new 100k seater stadium, that is what we should be doing. It’s time to move forwards and whilst I still love the existing ground with all its faults… I don’t think refurbishment is the answer to future proof the best club in the world.

If we had to knock down Old Trafford to build a new ground… I can’t say I would enjoy the idea of ground sharing in the interim.

Not sure that is actually the case, I posted documents from the club a few weeks ago that show the club don't necessarily own the freight terminal beside OT. The statement seems to indicate that land is only on a long term lease.

https://ir.manutd.com/~/media/Files/M/Manutd-IR/documents/2021-mu-plc-form-20-f.pdf

Key properties and locations Primary function Owned/leased Area (approx. m2) Old Trafford Football Stadium, Manchester ............... Football stadium Owned (freehold) 205,000
Carrington training ground, Carrington, Trafford ......... Football training facility Owned (freehold) 440,000
Littleton Road Training Ground, Salford . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Football training facility Owned (freehold) 84,000
The Cliff, Lower Broughton Road, Salford . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Football training facility Owned (freehold) 28,000
Manchester International Freight Terminal, Westinghouse Road Trafford Park, Manchester . . . . . Investment properties Leased (through March 2071) 107,000
Land and buildings at Wharfside, Trafford Park, Manchester . . . . . Investment properties Owned (freehold) 27,100
Land and buildings on the southwest side of Trafford Wharf Road, Manchester . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Offices and Car Parking Owned (freehold) 23,000
Land and buildings at Canalside, Trafford Park, Manchester . . . . . Investment properties Owned (freehold) 10,800
Land and buildings at Castlemore Retail Park, Trafford Park, Manchester . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Investment properties Owned (freehold) 3,969
Office space, Chester Road, Manchester . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Offices Leased (through November 2021) 1,176
Office space, central London . . . . . Offices Leased (through March 2022) 1,100
Office space, Maryland, United States . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Offices Leased (through May 2024) 653

The above properties are owned or leased by Manchester United Football Club Limited, apart from Castlemore Retail Park and Manchester International Freight Terminal which are owned or leased by Alderley Urban Investments Limited.

 

[Plant0x84]

The old players tunnel in the South Stand I believe is the Munich tunnel, it was renamed in 2008.

I thought the Munich tunnel was behind the south stand ( the entrance to the ground from that side?!) The old tunnel is certainly central to the pitch, having done the tour I’ve walked up it! you can colour me confused!

 

[stevoc]

Aesthetically, I regard Old Trafford as a masterpiece. Its history is beyond words. I was there last 12 months ago and didn’t feel unsafe or see a leaky roof, but is it wiser to spend 800m (and rising, when the next revamp has to be undertaken) every 25 years or 2b in the next five years to ensure the safety and comfort of fans for next century? Probably the latter.

I’m deeply involved historic preservation in California — yes, I know, a contradiction in terms — and I can tell you sometimes constant renovation of a historic building is less desirable than building anew, provided that the new building is designed with character.

Even a brand new stadium built tomorrow would probably need renovation work after 25-30 years to maintain and modernize it.