Well that's not for me to decide but it's comedy a person either finds it funny or they don't and either reaction is fine. But if people are getting offended by things comedians say during their act then I do wonder if we've forgotten the point of comedy. I don't think I've ever watched a stand-up act and taken much or all of it at face value or as the comedians actual opinion. Comedians will say any shit if they think it will make people laugh, which inevitably results in them saying loads of things people would find offensive.
Television Netflix announces 3 new Dave Chappelle comedy specials
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Well that's not for me to decide but it's comedy a person either finds it funny or they don't and either reaction is fine. But if people are getting offended by things comedians say during their act then I do wonder if we've forgotten the point of comedy. I don't think I've ever watched a stand-up act and taken much or all of it at face value or as the comedians actual opinion. Comedians will say any shit if they think it will make people laugh, which inevitably results in them saying loads of things people would find offensive.
Except then Chappelle does expect you to take what he says seriously in a special like 8:46, where the social commentary is as central as the jokes. He can't opt-in to being taken seriously when it gets him acclaim and then opt-out when it gets him criticism.
Some comedians go on stage and just tell pointless jokes. Others, like Chappelle, style themselves as people commenting on the world around them. That leaves their social commentary open for praise/criticism, whether shrouded in humour or not.
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Neither the individual 'trans person violently attacked' stories nor the broad ''trans people continue to be murdered at an extremely high rate' are news. Nor do they have any capacity for debate in 'civilised discourse' as very few people wouldn't say it's bad.
Whereas one of the world's most prominent entertainment figures dedicating a large portion of his output to ignorantly discussing trans people is news and does allow for debate.
Only an idiot would claim that Transgender people are 3.7 times more likely to experience police violence than black Americans, in America.
Good thing nobody has argued that then.
Well to be honest I was speaking more about comedy in general than Chappelle specifically. But whether or not comedians try to blend a more serious tone and social commentary into their act, it's still just that an act. A comedy act and should probably be treated as such.
Decent discussion on the topic
Just seen the latest special, and I see where DC is coming from but it's never a good look when you make jokes at expense of people from minoritised groups. Especially when you are from a different minority.
I don't think he was as offensive in this special as it is being made it out to be unless you want no jokes being told about trans topic whatsoever. The most offending bit is obviously him claiming that he is a TERF which has also gotten most headlines. For Trans community that is someone claiming to be a Nazi so all nuance is lost. But most people still at least agree with the milder TERF position of lived experience of someone born as female and identifying as a woman since birth, and trans-woman being different. I think that is the position he probably also agrees with and not that trans woman can never be woman. Broadly, he is transphobic on certain aspects since his outlooks seems to be indifferent acceptance.
I think that is exactly what what they want though.
Big fan of his but after watching the first 25 minutes I turned it off. Not sure if I got to the real controversial stuff but strictly from a comedy perspective, it wasn’t funny. His delivery seemed off too.
Watched it thought it was pretty good. Could it come accross as offensive? Yes it can, but you might aswell ban all stand up comedy then.
Daphne's roommate speaks out.
Think it's a tad OTT in the offence it took at Dave saying the set bombed. I interpreted it as a comedic device to get laughs rather than anything sinister, but the aftermath of the suicide was misrepresented in the special, it seems and that is shameful and deplorable if true.
Her sister has also spoken out and said that she is fully supportive of Chappell and don't consider him transphobic. I don't think any single person can act as a judge here.
Also above account is skewed since person seems to believe Chappell was calling himself transphobic in literal sense. Classic problem of people not actually watching a piece of media for whole context but just going off on basis of snippets being reported.
People have watched the entire thing and have called him transphobic? The problem starts when fans start to pluck context from thin air.
Decent show, strong finish. Not his best but some good jokes in there.
Do we just allow it with shows or do we also allow comedians to advertise their skills on other platforms like in tweets?
Yeah, getting worked up about him saying she bombed is a bit silly. It was her 6th, 7th time onstage? I’m in the stand-up scene, and becoming good enough to do well for 45 mins takes YEARS. Hardly a surprise.
Getting worked up about him calling himself a TERF and transphobic…obviously a comedic device, really weird thing to latch on to.
I’m someone who thinks he would have done well to limit it to one special, and I have qualms with how much he pushes Daphne ahead of him for credibility, but that write-up is missing the point to a large extent. At any rate what is clear is that Dave is toying with the emotions of one of the most vulnerable minorities out there today. Is he that hard-up for material?
She also seems to be taking everything he said at face value, particularly the parts where he says "I'm transphobic". He's obviously being sarcastic and playing up to the narrative that he hates trans for comedic effect.
I'll be honest, I completely missed the controversy.
Notoriously a bad way to approach comedy.
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To take everything at face value? Or sarcasm?
I don't understand the mindset of anybody that is willing to either go to a comedy show or watch one on Netflix or whatever and get offended. I don't see how that is possible.
Chappelle's MO is to either make a straigth forward political point while telling a funny story, or when he's being ironic it's usually pretty obvious what point he's actually making.
So in "how old is 15 really" the takeaway isn't that pissing on underage teenagers is good, he's talking about how young (often black) kids are treated as evil adults by society and the justice system, while other kids (often white) are treated as ... kids. This isn't "just a joke", it's a sincere political point made in a stand up routine.
When he says that he's team terf, combined with all the other stuff he has said, why wouldn't you take him seriously? Has he suddenly stopped speaking his mind in his old age?
Read back a couple of posts, I was clearly backing @rotherham_red when he said she was taking things that she shouldn’t at face value. I wasn’t talking about Dave.
Editing the post I responded to, for added clarity.
edit: I seem to have misread you. So you sincerely think he considers himself transphobic?
You think there really was a dope dealing baby out in the ghetto after midnight too? Or that he kicked a woman in the pussy?
I’m not saying it’s ALL jokes, but he sure as shit was kidding when self-identifying as transphobic.
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But she's talking about Dave, so if you're saying her interpretation is wrong then you are talking about what he said. Even if she's taking what he said at face value, and I don't think it's clear that this is happening, then that doesn't mean that she's generally taking everything that comedians say at face value. You can watch Dave Chappelle and believe that he's serious when he says that Derek Chauvin is a murderer, while at the same time watch Norm McDonald and not believe him when he acts like he just learned about Hitler.
Sorry for the heavy editing to my original post there.
Sure. I’m just saying she clearly got it wrong in this instance.
You disagree that taking everything at face value is the wrong way to approach comedy? l’m not saying everything should be taken as nonsense.
No, I don't disagree with that at all, but I both don't see any indication that she's doing that generally and I don't see how she clearly got it wrong here specifically. You can be disgusted by Chappelle calling himself transphobic even if he is calling himself that for comedic effect, and I think taking him seriously when he places himself on team terf is reasonable.
I'm not personally offended by anything Chappelle said in his specials, it wasn't directed at me. However I was uncomfortable that such big chunks of his recent shows were aimed squarely at belittling a minority that already faces verbal and physical abuse on a daily basis. Same with the likes of Glinner and J.K. Rowling using their platform to undermine. Its not shining a light on a social issue, its bullying.
rotherham_utd said it seems like she’s taking everything seriously, I then said that taking everything in a comdy special seriously is a bad approach. I’m stating the obvious there, and talking in general.
I was not saying she took everything seriously, though I can get why you might think that.
Not sure why she would be disgusted at him jokingly referring to himself as transphobic, he obviously meant to get laughs out of it because he finds the notion absurd. Maybe you can enlighten me on why that would be viewed as disgusting?
I agree on the TERF point, it’s less clear and I’d be more likely to think that’s more serious.
I think the latest one for me is slightly different.
I feel like he was doubling down in the face of previous criticism regarding his trans jokes. I felt like he was taking it to the extreme to make a point about artistic expression or a percieved lack of it these days with all the 'cancel culture'. Part of it is probably ego because he knows or thinks he's too big to be 'cancelled' or he just doesnt care becasue he's already very wealthy. He mentions "This will be my last special for a minute" and at the end "Stop punching down on my people" he is talking about comedians.
Yeah, I get a sense that the backlash makes him go "feck that, now I’m definitely making fun of them!"
I think that's exactly what's going on here.
Sure. As a parallell, there's this mantra a lot of online right wingers and centrists have at the moment that "racism has lost all meaning" because apparantly everything is racist nowadays. You'll find variants of takes here, some saying that being called a racist is a badge of honor (because the wokies and lefties are so stupid), etc. etc. These people often don't actually see themselves as racists, but what they're doing still says something about them.
Even if Chappelle doesn't believe that he is transphobic, calling himself a transphobe ironically isn't some neutral act. It illustrates what he thinks of the criticism he has gotten for his helicopter jokes and all the other stuff. He doesn't take it seriously, and he's laughing about it. Some people might think that's a bad thing, especially if some people have a dead friend that Chappelle is using as a shield.
He's literally a comedian and playing up to a false narrative for comedic effect.
You don't need to be offended to think his social commentary (which is what his stand-up partly consists of) is off-base and frankly ignorant on this issue. And for some reason he has kept returning to it over and over again across multiple specials.
If social commentary forms as much of a part of a comedian's stand-up as it does with Chappele's, he will naturally be judged on the basis of that social commentary as well as how funny it is. Just as he was praised for the 8.46 special (which wasn't exactly a laugh-riot) on exactly those terms. He didn't get his current status by cultivating a reputation as someone who only exists to make mindless, meaningless routines that should never be thought about or commented on.
Plus, as a few people have said already, trans material and cancel-culture material is so prevalent among stand-ups now that it has become hack. And in the middle of a special that isn't exactly hitting the heights of his previous work, diving into hack subject matter with hack takes is worth commenting on even just as criticism of it as stand-up.
And then there's also a terrible stink of privilege off a rich, high-status comedian suggesting other rich, high-status comedians are being "punched down on". Kevin Hart not hosting the Oscars is not a problem, at all. There's a bit in 30 Rock where the Tracy Jordan character does stand-up about how people eat their lobsters and that's what I will now picture when I hear millionaire comedians talk about how tough it is for millionaire comedians.
If social commentary forms as much of a part of a comedian's stand-up as it does with Chappele's, he will naturally be judged on the basis of that social commentary as well as how funny it is. Just as he was praised for the 8.46 special (which wasn't exactly a laugh-riot) on exactly those terms. He didn't get his current status by cultivating a reputation as someone who only exists to make mindless, meaningless routines that should never be thought about or commented on.
Plus, as a few people have said already, trans material and cancel-culture material is so prevalent among stand-ups now that it has become hack. And in the middle of a special that isn't exactly hitting the heights of his previous work, diving into hack subject matter with hack takes is worth commenting on even just as criticism of it as stand-up.
And then there's also a terrible stink of privilege off a rich, high-status comedian suggesting other rich, high-status comedians are being "punched down on". Kevin Hart not hosting the Oscars is not a problem, at all. There's a bit in 30 Rock where the Tracy Jordan character does stand-up about how people eat their lobsters and that's what I will now picture when I hear millionaire comedians talk about how tough it is for millionaire comedians.
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