NBA 2022-2023

[Jim Beam]

Some of Jimmy's performances for the Heat before this series against the Bucks.

• 2022 Eastern Conference Finals Game 6 vs. BOS: 47 PTS, 9 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 1 BLK
• 2020 NBA Finals Game 3 vs. LAL: 40 PTS, 13 AST, 11 REB, 2 STL, 2 BLK (first player to outscore, outrebound and out-assist LeBron in a Finals game and along with LeBron and Jerry West the only player to have 40pts triple-double in the NBA finals)
• 2020 NBA Finals Game 5 vs. LAL: 35 PTS, 12 REB, 11 AST, 5 STL, 1 BLK

Last night he had his 8th 40+ points performance in the playoff for the Heat which is the most in franchise history (jumped over Wade). He has zero 40+ points games in the regular season for the Heat.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/highest-scoring-game-in-the-playoffs-by-a-miami-heat-player

Number of 40+ pts games in the playoffs for the Heat: Jimmy Butler 8, Dwayne Wade 7, LeBron James 3. On top of that he is a defensive machine as well.

It is obvious this isn't a one game/one series occurence. Jimmy come playoffs goes nuts.

 

[ZDwyr]

Bud will go and rightly so. Especially with Nurse available. He was 2 inches from being sacked years ago anyway when KD's foot was on the line.

 

[Andrade]

Oh feck off I only said there were arguments to have LeBron over Jordan, you just in your own post agree that there's an argument for LeBron over Jordan.

I agree 100% with this take:


I will not fault anyone if they tell me that they have LeBron over Jordan if they have their argument for it - of which longevity obviously would be the biggest one.

I don't think there's that many people that saw both play who pick Lebron. Of course younger Lebron fans will claim that these people are victims of 'nostalgia', but they are ultimately in a weaker position because it's better to be (perhaps) nostalgic about something you witnessed than to have never seen it at all.

 

[Bepi]

It's probably the best head coach behind Spoelstra and Kerr, sacking him would be surprising. Especially when your best player and only superstar missed 11 out of 20 quarters in that first round.

Nah, they have the best roster behind the best overall player. Going out at the first hurdle is a spectacular fail.

 

[JPRouve]

Nah, they have the best roster behind the best overall player. Going out at the first hurdle is a spectacular fail.

I don't think they do, they have the best overall player but he was out for the majority of the time. Then they are left with a second option that is a shadow of his former self due to injuries and a bunch of great defensive players that are suspect offensively. Their offense is Giannis and his gravity, that's the only reason their players have space to shoot, the rest of the team can't actually create their own shots consistently without Giannis.

Their roster isn't the best, it's the best for Giannis. Otherwise their ceiling drops very quickly especially without an in form Middleton.

 

[RobinLFC]

I don't think there's that many people that saw both play who pick Lebron. Of course younger Lebron fans will claim that these people are victims of 'nostalgia', but they are ultimately in a weaker position because it's better to be (perhaps) nostalgic about something you witnessed than to have never seen it at all.

Nicely put.

I think no matter how many more years LeBron plays, the longevity stats and records won't (at all) persuade Jordan truthers that he should suddenly overtake MJ. They've made up their minds and the only way it can become a true debate for them is when LeBron wins another 2 titles and/or picks up another MVP or DPOY, which are all very unlikely (not to say impossible) at this stage of his career.

 

[RobinLFC]

Read yesterday that he was facing criminal charges for a post-game incident and it's supposed to be for this?

They're having a laugh if they are serious about that, reeks like some people want a quick payday.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Nicely put.

I think no matter how many more years LeBron plays, the longevity stats and records won't (at all) persuade Jordan truthers that he should suddenly overtake MJ. They've made up their minds and the only way it can become a true debate for them is when LeBron wins another 2 titles and/or picks up another MVP or DPOY, which are all very unlikely (not to say impossible) at this stage of his career.

No idea what a Jordan "truther" is but the vast majority of basketball fans including the LeBron's peers consider Jordan better because of higher peak, accolades, and accomplishments.
So why on earth would anyone think its a discussion unless LeBron adds another 2 FMVPs and another MVP? That's literally the biggest separator between them. One guy has accomplished more in less time, while having a higher peak.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

I don't think there's that many people that saw both play who pick Lebron. Of course younger Lebron fans will claim that these people are victims of 'nostalgia', but they are ultimately in a weaker position because it's better to be (perhaps) nostalgic about something you witnessed than to have never seen it at all.

They don't see the irony of calling it nostalgic when they're engaging in exactly what they claim to decry. Because - as you pointed out - not many who watched both play pick LeBron. Its funny watching those who obstinately want to believe that Lebron is better despite all the evidence pointing to the contrary will emotionally allude to random biased among the masses, while everyone laughs.

 

[RobinLFC]

No idea what a Jordan "truther" is but the vast majority of basketball fans including the LeBron's peers consider Jordan better because of higher peak, accolades, and accomplishments.
So why on earth would anyone think its a discussion unless LeBron adds another 2 FMVPs and another MVP? That's literally the biggest separator between them. One guy has accomplished more in less time, while having a higher peak.

So what would you say when someone comes to you tonight and says "I have LeBron over Jordan because I value longevity a lot (and LeBron is also a better passer/distributor/team player with a higher basketball IQ than Jordan ever was)"?

 

[Bepi]

So what would you say when someone comes to you tonight and says "I have LeBron over Jordan because I value longevity a lot (and LeBron is also a better passer/distributor/team player with a higher basketball IQ than Jordan ever was)"?

You are being outwummed, mate. What about your game 6? We will take care of ours tonight.

 

[JPRouve]

Read yesterday that he was facing criminal charges for a post-game incident and it's supposed to be for this?

They're having a laugh if they are serious about that, reeks like some people want a quick payday.

I'm probably missing something but the chair didn't touch anyone? And he didn't target anyone too.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

So what would you say when someone comes to you tonight and says "I have LeBron over Jordan because I value longevity a lot (and LeBron is also a better passer/distributor/team player with a higher basketball IQ than Jordan ever was)"?

Another random question. What on earth does this have to do with the discussion?
He can have his opinion but I'd immediately question how he decided Lebron has a higher basketball IQ than Jordan? Your first bit about passing and being a distributor is redundant. I'd easily be able to say Jordan is a more prolific scorer and a better defender and leader. But again, not really relevant because each can have his strengths.

I would explain to him how Jordan had a higher peak and accomplished much more whole playing much less, and without the benefit of hopping from roster to roster, while playing in a tougher era. If wants to obstinately dismiss that because he insists Lebron is better, that's his prerogative. I can't change the minds of the obstinate.

 

[RobinLFC]

You are being outwummed, mate. What about your game 6? We will take care of ours tonight.

Yeah I have no hopes of ATL taking this series, but even just a Game 7 would be nice as it means more recovery time for Embiid

As for the Lakers, quite nervous about Game 6 - really don't wanna go to Memphis in need of a Game 7 win...

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Some of Jimmy's performances for the Heat before this series against the Bucks.

• 2022 Eastern Conference Finals Game 6 vs. BOS: 47 PTS, 9 REB, 8 AST, 4 STL, 1 BLK
• 2020 NBA Finals Game 3 vs. LAL: 40 PTS, 13 AST, 11 REB, 2 STL, 2 BLK (first player to outscore, outrebound and out-assist LeBron in a Finals game and along with LeBron and Jerry West the only player to have 40pts triple-double in the NBA finals)
• 2020 NBA Finals Game 5 vs. LAL: 35 PTS, 12 REB, 11 AST, 5 STL, 1 BLK

Last night he had his 8th 40+ points performance in the playoff for the Heat which is the most in franchise history (jumped over Wade). He has zero 40+ points games in the regular season for the Heat.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/highest-scoring-game-in-the-playoffs-by-a-miami-heat-player

Number of 40+ pts games in the playoffs for the Heat: Jimmy Butler 8, Dwayne Wade 7, LeBron James 3. On top of that he is a defensive machine as well.

It is obvious this isn't a one game/one series occurence. Jimmy come playoffs goes nuts.

Surprised he has more than Wade. And even more surprised Lebron only had 3 in his 3 years at Miami. The game has changed, though, and it's easier to score than it used to be.

 

[charlton66]

No idea what a Jordan "truther" is but the vast majority of basketball fans including the LeBron's peers consider Jordan better because of higher peak, accolades, and accomplishments.
So why on earth would anyone think its a discussion unless LeBron adds another 2 FMVPs and another MVP? That's literally the biggest separator between them. One guy has accomplished more in less time, while having a higher peak.

It's not just awards and accomplishments though. Jordan was just better. You all have probably realized over the years that I'm a huge Steph Curry fan (favorite player and all that). But even if Steph won another couple of chips and FMVPs, even 3 or 4, he still wouldn't be better than Jordan. If you didn't see MJ, people just don't get it. He had this aura about him. At his peak, other players just didn't believe they could beat him.

.....and they couldn't

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

It's not just awards and accomplishments though. Jordan was just better. You all have probably realized over the years that I'm a huge Steph Curry fan (favorite player and all that). But even if Steph won another couple of chips and FMVPs he still wouldn't be better than Jordan. If you didn't see MJ, people just don't get it. He had this aura about him. At his peak, other players just didn't believe they could beat him.

.....and they couldn't

I'm not disagreeing. In fact, thats precisely the view i hold and i fail to see how anyone who understands basketball cant see it. The advanced metrics point to that being the case, but if you had watched him, you wouldn't need them to tell you how great he was.

I'm just indulging someone who thinks others are intransigent for not thinking Lebron has a compelling case as of this moment, despite not matching Jordan's peaks OR his accomplishments, clearly oblivious to the irony.

 

[WI_Red]

In light of the Butler (deserved!) accolades and the Jordan discussions, I thought I would just drop this here. A players has averaged 40+ ppg in a playoff series 9 times*. Jordan has 5 of those.

*the article I read was written in 2020, so it may have happened again since.

 

[RobinLFC]

I'm not disagreeing. In fact, thats precisely the view i hold and i fail to see how anyone who understands basketball cant see it. The advanced metrics point to that being the case, but if you had watched him, you wouldn't need them to tell you how great he was.

I'm just indulging someone who thinks others are intransigent for not thinking Lebron has a compelling case as of this moment, despite not matching Jordan's peaks OR his accomplishments, clearly oblivious to the irony.

It's just your condescending attitude that annoys me ("I can't change the minds of the obstinate", "fail to see how anyone who understands basketball cant see it"), but maybe that's just who you are. Nothing more to it as in essence I agree with you.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Philly really messed up picking Harris/Simmons over Butler.

Jimmy agrees

https://youtube.com/shorts/14jUxgvngNw?feature=share

I swear man, what a royal eff up. Imagine Embiid with Butler, would definitely be in the finals by now.

I don't think it's likely. As you pointed out, he's playing at a historically great level. I'm not sure it's sustainable.

Whatever happens, it's was a great series and something to remember when discussing Jimmy Butler's career after he retires.

Sadly, given how discussions around great players usually go, I don't think he'll be talked about as an elite player a few years after he retires. That is ofcourse if he doesn't go on to win a title, which seems likely unless they get a lucky run with opposition injuries.

I think his decent regular season performances will go against him when comparing him with other great players who didn't win a title, those are the stats people usually look at.

 

[JPRouve]

In light of the Butler (deserved!) accolades and the Jordan discussions, I thought I would just drop this here. A players has averaged 40+ ppg in a playoff series 9 times*. Jordan has 5 of those.

*the article I read was written in 2020, so it may have happened again since.

Lebron is betta!

 

[hasanejaz88]

In light of the Butler (deserved!) accolades and the Jordan discussions, I thought I would just drop this here. A players has averaged 40+ ppg in a playoff series 9 times*. Jordan has 5 of those.

*the article I read was written in 2020, so it may have happened again since.

Would be interesting to see a stat like total points contributed (points + assist) per game. While Jordan as an elite scorer hasn't be surpassed by Lebron, it's unfair to not credit Lebron for his better assists.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

It's just your condescending attitude that annoys me ("I can't change the minds of the obstinate", "fail to see how anyone who understands basketball cant see it"), but maybe that's just who you are. Nothing more to it as in essence I agree with you.

You're looking right into a mirror mate, and the irony is evidently lost on you. No need to emotionally lash out. If you have something basketball-related to respond with, I'm here to discuss.

 

[WI_Red]

Lebron is betta!

That graphic reminded me of that 93 finals against the suns. Probably my favorite non Lakers playoff series ever (MJ's hate fueled rampage of Malone and the Jazz in 97 is a close second). That Bulls team on paper was the worse team. Their third best player was either BJ Armstrong or Grant. Meanwhile, the Suns ran out Chuck, KJ, Thunder Dan, Ainge, and Dumas (who is a finalist for greatest "what if" NBA player.) The thing is, it's not like Chuck pulled a Malone and dissolved into a puddle of incompetence, he was really good. So were the rest of the Suns. MJ was just MJ though and he had an MVP imposter to tear down.

@hasanejaz88: Since I have the basketball reference page open I can say that in the 93 Suns series Jordan went 41 pts/8.5 reb/6.3 ast /1.7 stl /.7 blk...so yah.

edit again: playoff slashes:
MJ: 33/6/6/2/1
Lebron: 28/9/7/1.7/1

This is not adjusted for the significant increase in scoring and between their two eras however.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Sadly, given how discussions around great players usually go, I don't think he'll be talked about as an elite player a few years after he retires. That is ofcourse if he doesn't go on to win a title, which seems likely unless they get a lucky run with opposition injuries.

I think his decent regular season performances will go against him when comparing him with other great players who didn't win a title, those are the stats people usually look at.

You may be right but I'm more optimistic that he'll get the recognition he deserves because so did Iverson for leading an non-challenger to a final. Butler has already done that and took the Lebron-Davis Lakers to 6 games. He has put on one of the greatest series ever (which included his 56 point game that will be replayed for years).

I feel that even if he doesn't win a title, he'll be remembered fondly, but i also agree that he won't be considered an all time great because his stats don't compare with the other all time greats. And winning a title might obviate the focus on his stats but its unlikely to happen.

 

[JPRouve]

If we are being honest that conversation is pointless, when all is said and done Anthony Edwards will be the goat.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

That graphic reminded me of that 93 finals against the suns. Probably my favorite non Lakers playoff series ever (MJ's hate fueled rampage of Malone and the Jazz in 97 is a close second). That Bulls team on paper was the worse team. Their third best player was either BJ Armstrong or Grant. Meanwhile, the Suns ran out Chuck, KJ, Thunder Dan, Ainge, and Dumas (who is a finalist for greatest "what if" NBA player.) The thing is, it's not like Chuck pulled a Malone and dissolved into a puddle of incompetence, he was really good. So were the rest of the Suns. MJ was just MJ though and he had an MVP imposter to tear down.

@hasanejaz88: Since I have the basketball reference page open I can say that in the 93 Suns series Jordan went 41 pts/8.5 reb/6.3 ast /1.7 stl /.7 blk...so yah.

I remember Paul Westphal after game 4 looking dazzed and in awe as he repeatedly told media members "I never said we can stop him. We can't stop him. Nobody can stop him" after Jordan put up 55.

That was a crazy series. Lost in all this is Jordan scoring all but Chicago's last basket in the 4th quarter of game 6 as everyone on the Bulls tensed up.

 

[Jim Beam]

In light of the Butler (deserved!) accolades and the Jordan discussions, I thought I would just drop this here. A players has averaged 40+ ppg in a playoff series 9 times*. Jordan has 5 of those.

*the article I read was written in 2020, so it may have happened again since.

Insane. Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, Rick Barry and Bernard King are other 4 players if anyone is interested. Baylor, West and Barry all with a FG percentage lower than 50%.

 

[charlton66]

The Jordan discussions really bring back some fond memories. The Dubs were usually out of contention for most of MJ's winning streak so when it came to the playoffs it was the Bulls games I looked forward to the most. As I've said previously, Jordan had this aura about him on the court but the Bulls intro announcing the team with "Sirius" blaring in the background still gives me chills. Teams were often beaten before they took the court. I've never seen or heard anything like it sports wise before or since. Even on TV, the electricity in the arena was palpable.

Yep, still gives me chills.....

 

[hasanejaz88]

You may be right but I'm more optimistic that he'll get the recognition he deserves because so did Iverson for leading an non-challenger to a final. Butler has already done that and took the Lebron-Davis Lakers to 6 games. He has put on one of the greatest series ever (which included his 56 point game that will be replayed for years).

I feel that even if he doesn't win a title, he'll be remembered fondly, but i also agree that he won't be considered an all time great because his stats don't compare with the other all time greats. And winning a title might obviate the focus on his stats but its unlikely to happen.

I don't think people look at the bubble season with much importance given the very different circumstances, and his individual performances during that run weren't as great as compared to others. Interesting comparison with Iverson, I would say Iverson had a much worse team than Butler did and also came against a much better LA Lakers team in the finals, that game 1 performance was superb given the context.

 

[Zen]

Why has Giannis joined Pep in comparing failure to Jordan only winning 6 out of 14/whatever.

Absurdly, he never lost as a favourite unlike those 2. Sorry Giannis, but you're rattled. But I like that he was still kind of nice anyway. Gotta love GIannis, he's a genuine guy.

 

[elmo]

Why has Giannis joined Pep in comparing failure to Jordan only winning 6 out of 14/whatever.

Absurdly, he never lost as a favourite unlike those 2. Sorry Giannis, but you're rattled. But I like that he was still kind of nice anyway. Gotta love GIannis, he's a genuine guy.

I think it’s a rubbish question. Giannis missed plenty of the series, if he took the the bait and said yes, they’ll spin it as him blaming his teammates for the ‘failure’.

 

[JPRouve]

Why has Giannis joined Pep in comparing failure to Jordan only winning 6 out of 14/whatever.

Absurdly, he never lost as a favourite unlike those 2. Sorry Giannis, but you're rattled. But I like that he was still kind of nice anyway. Gotta love GIannis, he's a genuine guy.

I actually think that it's a good comparison for Giannis but not for cheating Pep. Giannis answer is in the context of US sports media and they can't have it both way, they can't trash everyone that isn't winning everything today while using legends of the game as a benchmark because they didn't win everything either. People in the media are too comfortable with their double standards.

 

[Sarni]

I actually realized that despite disliking Lakers I may end up rooting for them in every series they will be in. Definitely prefer them to Grizzlies in the current one, if they play Warriors in round 2 then it’s again Lakers for me and if they face Suns in Conference Finals I will also root for them. If it’s Boston in Finals, then I will once again prefer Lakers. Strange times.

 

[Andrade]

It's not just awards and accomplishments though. Jordan was just better. You all have probably realized over the years that I'm a huge Steph Curry fan (favorite player and all that). But even if Steph won another couple of chips and FMVPs, even 3 or 4, he still wouldn't be better than Jordan. If you didn't see MJ, people just don't get it. He had this aura about him. At his peak, other players just didn't believe they could beat him.

.....and they couldn't

This is true.

 

[JPRouve]

I actually realized that despite disliking Lakers I may end up rooting for them in every series they will be in. Definitely prefer them to Grizzlies in the current one, if they play Warriors in round 2 then it’s again Lakers for me and if they face Suns in Conference Finals I will also root for them. If it’s Boston in Finals, then I will once again prefer Lakers. Strange times.

It's the same for me. Even though I dislike how good Lebron is, he is still fun to watch when he gets going.

 

[Zen]

Jordan's run at PG - with zero preparation for it was pretty fun.

Spoiler

Does LeBron have the better IQ and passing ability.... sure? Whatever I ain't truly arguing it. But Jordan played less than half a season as a point in his whole career, and was insane. If he wanted Kareem's record too, he'd have it, with relative ease, in the 90's before terrific scientific and nutritional advances(though like LeBron he still heavily invested and ahead of the curve here), while smoking cigars and playing 18 holes multiple times a week. There's very little LeBron can do... a lot of the Jordan stuff is quite circumstantial of the time frame he played and it being perfect symmetry all round.

He's also totally authentic too, if he was just a work colleague in a warehouse, you could feel he'd be the exact same person, to a degree. It's not like he tried to hide being a bit of a loon. But we loved that in the 90's - see Rodman being the second biggest basketball player of the 90's

 

[JPRouve]

Jordan's run at PG - with zero preparation for it was pretty fun.

Spoiler

Does LeBron have the better IQ and passing ability.... sure? Whatever I ain't truly arguing it. But Jordan played less than half a season as a point in his whole career, and was insane. If he wanted Kareem's record too, he'd have it, with relative ease, in the 90's before terrific scientific and nutritional advances(though like LeBron he still heavily invested and ahead of the curve here), while smoking cigars and playing 18 holes multiple times a week. There's very little LeBron can do... a lot of the Jordan stuff is quite circumstantial of the time frame he played and it being perfect symmetry all round.

He's also totally authentic too, if he was just a work colleague in a warehouse, you could feel he'd be the exact same person, to a degree. It's not like he tried to hide being a bit of a loon. But we loved that in the 90's - see Rodman being the second biggest basketball player of the 90's

Wasn't he also suspected to be on the booze before some of these games? Jordan was a different. The state of those minutes played.

 

[WeePat]

Philly really messed up picking Harris/Simmons over Butler.

There was a tiny glimmer of a chance that he could have ended up on the Rockets when he left Minnesota. Harden, CP3 and Butler together would have been glorious and maybe earned us a chip.

 

[WI_Red]

There was a tiny glimmer of a chance that he could have ended up on the Rockets when he left Minnesota. Harden, CP3 and Butler together would have been glorious and maybe earned us a chip.

Does not compute