NBA 2019-2020

Fosu-Mens said:
Who has been better or who would be better to have in the playoffs?

This depends how to quantify defensive contribution and how much of Hardens game is impacted by playing ISO. Are Harden numbers this good because the Rockets are built to make him play ISO or will he be able to put up similar numbers for a team not constructed for him to play ISO?

Will a team be better off having a player performing well in both ends or a player playing extremely well offensively or defensively?

In certain situations and against certain team having a player like Harden would be better than Lebron or Kawhi. Against others, the lack of defensive contribution might make him less useful than having players than PG13, Curry, Giannis etc. So it depends.
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What's Paul George done in the playoffs to deserve taking him over Harden? The last time he was relevant in the playoffs was 2014...

Meanwhile Harden's rockets took the Curry-Klay-Durant-Green warriors to 7 games, and only lost game 7 because of an historical teamwide cold hand. That while losing Chris Paul

I can't think of a lot of players with a better recent playoff record than Harden honestly. LBJ, Kawhi, KD, i guess you could throw in Steph...Jokic, Giannis last season maybe? Harden's been quite clearly a top 5-6 player in the league including playoffs in the past two seasons
 
giorno said:
What's Paul George done in the playoffs to deserve taking him over Harden? The last time he was relevant in the playoffs was 2014...

Meanwhile Harden's rockets took the Curry-Klay-Durant-Green warriors to 7 games, and only lost game 7 because of an historical teamwide cold hand. That while losing Chris Paul

I can't think of a lot of players with a better recent playoff record than Harden honestly. LBJ, Kawhi, KD, i guess you could throw in Steph...Jokic, Giannis last season maybe? Harden's been quite clearly a top 5-6 player in the league including playoffs in the past two seasons
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My "amen" was whether he would be among top 10 players to build a team around or not, but I also agree to the statement that he would not be among my prefered players in a playoff scenario. You brought in historical performances, in which I agreed that he performed well last season.

Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi, AD, PG, KD are 6 players I would not hesitate to pick over Harden. Then there are a number of players that might better fit in a number of team compositions: Curry, Jokic, Gobert, Oladipo etc.

Then again you could make a scary good team with expert role players around Harden.
 
Fosu-Mens said:
My "amen" was whether he would be among top 10 players to build a team around or not, but I also agree to the statement that he would not be among my prefered players in a playoff scenario. You brought in historical performances, in which I agreed that he performed well last season.

Giannis, Lebron, Kawhi, AD, PG, KD are 6 players I would not hesitate to pick over Harden. Then there are a number of players that might better fit in a number of team compositions: Curry, Jokic, Gobert, Oladipo etc.

Then again you could make a scary good team with expert role players around Harden.
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James Harden makes a mediocre team good, maybe even very good, but he doesn't make a good team great because he is far too ball dominant. His ppg average also drops tremendously during the playoffs because he is invariably knackered by the time he gets there and also the games are reffed a bit differently so he doesn't get to cheat the line as often.

Just for information here are the top all time scorers (ppg) in NBA playoff history.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/all_time_leaders/points_per_game_career_playoffs.htm

As far as active players are concerned, Durant is 4th, LeBron is 5th and Steph is 8th. Harden is 31st.
 
charlton66 said:
James Harden makes a mediocre team good, maybe even very good, but he doesn't make a good team great because he is far too ball dominant. His ppg average also drops tremendously during the playoffs because he is invariably knackered by the time he gets there and also the games are reffed a bit differently so he doesn't get to cheat the line as often.

Just for information here are the top all time scorers (ppg) in NBA playoff history.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/all_time_leaders/points_per_game_career_playoffs.htm

As far as active players are concerned, Durant is 4th, LeBron is 5th and Steph is 8th. Harden is 31st.
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If you have 1*Gobert, and 3*Tuckers and 1*Harden that would be an interesting team. And could be scary good for a short amount of time. But as you say, ISO is not sustainable for the one playing ISO over time. And it is boring as f.

And he scored 30+ ppg in the playoffs last year. Before that, not so good. FYI I'm not the one trying to state that Harden is a top 3 player.
 
I think this is the last place on the internet still trying to argue Harden isn't top 3 in the league, it's funny.
 
Harden reminds me of C. Ronaldo. Gets the job done as well as anyobdy, argualby ever, but if he's not on your team you hate him.
 
Piratesoup said:
Harden reminds me of C. Ronaldo. Gets the job done as well as anyobdy, argualby ever, but if he's not on your team you hate him.
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Ronaldo is one of the best players of all time who's won countless trophies. Harden is a cnut who's won nothing.
 
MrMarcello said:
How would Harden fare in the current Warriors edition? i.e. no Curry and Thompson but with Green.

Would the Warriors be better than 3-13?
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Yes they would. Definitely! As a said earlier, Harden makes mediocre ( being generous to current Dubs) teams good because he is so ball dominant. In this current Warriors team he'd be taking 30+ shots per night. Harden's problem is that if you put 4 superstars with him they'd all be stood around while he did his thing.
 
charlton66 said:
Hey, I thought you'd blocked me That was a bit over the top I've got to admit. Glad to have you back, you know I love James really.
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Yeah I can see the love when you called him a cnut. :lol:

I only ignored you during play-offs because I hate the Warriors.
 
syrian_scholes said:
Yeah I can see the love when you called him a cnut. :lol:

I only ignored you during play-offs because I hate the Warriors.
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I don't think you'll have to ignore me during these next playoffs. ;)

I don't know why everyone hates the Dubs (unless you're new to the NBA I suppose). We've sucked for nigh on 40 years until 2015.
 
charlton66 said:
I don't think you'll have to ignore me during these next playoffs. ;)

I don't know why everyone hates the Dubs (unless you're new to the NBA I suppose). We've sucked for nigh on 40 years until 2015.
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Yet when you became good your fans were so loud and the BW was unreal, it's a bit like Chelsea for me.
 
syrian_scholes said:
Yet when you became good your fans were so loud and the BW was unreal, it's a bit like Chelsea for me.
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Surely you can't begrudge a little schadenfreude. When you've sucked for so long you certainly are going to make the most of a little success.
 
charlton66 said:
Surely you can't begrudge a little schadenfreude. When you've sucked for so long you certainly are going to make the most of a little success.
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Not the San Fran ones but the those who just jumped on the BW without being fans before

BTW I want to say that I really find the hate for Harden and the huge love for Giannis laughable, Giannis might be more flashy sometimes but he averaged 2 less FT than Harden last season with less MPG and less usage, I honestly think those who keep talking about FTs and Harden never watched him play and just go off some Reddit threads.
 
Eboue said:
also hes not a top 5 player.

tier 1:

lebron
kawhi
durant
giannis
davis

tier 2:

curry
harden
jokic
lillard
embiid
doncic


no particular order within tiers
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I agree, once he wins a ring, if that ever happens he can cement his place in tier 1, but if he doesn't he'll always be just another great player.
 
Second game back in over a year still not fully game fit....18-7-4.

This Melo guy is worse than a horse don't you know, They need a 25 year old G league player.
 
Giannis might be the most dominant player in the paint since Shaq.
 
:wenger::lol: imagine trying to still fight against 18-7-4 at 35 and has not played in a year.

ITS FINE! get the G league player in please...ohhh or the horse either or would do:lol:
 
Eboue said:
why not? harden is a liability on defense. davis is one of the 5 best defenders in the game
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The fact that he's been in the MVP run (and won one) for several years in a row, unlike anything Davis has ever gotten close to. The fact that he is most relentless scorer in the NBA since Jordan. If you want, I'd keep Davis in Tier 1 but I'd also add Harden. Nothing too serious anyway

SportingCP96 said:
:wenger::lol: imagine trying to still fight against 18-7-4 at 35 and has not played in a year.

ITS FINE! get the G league player in please...ohhh or the horse either or would do:lol:
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I kinda agree with @Eboue, those stats do not tell the full story. Anthony scoring has never been an issue, his scoring hasn't helped his teams is all
 
kouroux said:
The fact that he's been in the MVP run (and won one) for several years in a row, unlike anything Davis has ever gotten close to. The fact that he is most relentless scorer in the NBA since Jordan. If you want, I'd keep Davis in Tier 1 but I'd also add Harden. Nothing too serious anyway


I kinda agree with @Eboue, those stats do not tell the full story. Anthony scoring has never been an issue, his scoring hasn't helped his teams is all
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Harden might be the best offensive player in the league at the moment. I'm not knocking him. I just think Davis is a top 10 defensive player and a top 10 offensive player and I'll take that type of player over a one dimensional guy like Harden.
 
I'd have Harden ahead of Davis but I wouldn't be too outraged if people flip them.
 
Eboue said:
Harden might be the best offensive player in the league at the moment. I'm not knocking him. I just think Davis is a top 10 defensive player and a top 10 offensive player and I'll take that type of player over a one dimensional guy like Harden.
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I'd have: LeBron, Harden, Curry, Durant, Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Lillard, Kawhi, and George ahead of Davis as an offensive player.

EDIT: Meant Towns, not Embiid.
 
SportingCP96 said:
:wenger::lol: imagine trying to still fight against 18-7-4 at 35 and has not played in a year.

ITS FINE! get the G league player in please...ohhh or the horse either or would do:lol:
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im gonna try and not be condescending right now. here we go.

scoring points is good. but you cant just look at total points in a vacuum. every shot taken is a possession spent that could have been used in a different way. every turnover is also a possession spent. there's an opportunity cost. so a simple way to look at it is to add up possessions used and add up points.

anthony had 15 field goal attempts, thats 15 possessions. he had 4 free throw attempts. thats 2 possessions. he had 3 turnovers. thats 3 possessions.

15+2+3 = 20. so thats 20 possessions used by carmelo anthony and he totaled 18 points. 18/20 is 0.90 points per possession. so now lets get some context. is that good or bad?

Dallas currently averages 1.15 points per possession, thats first in the league.
Portland averages 1.08, thats 13th.
Memphis and Chicago both average 1.03, tied for last place.

So Carmelo's efficiency tonight was significantly behind the worst offenses in the league. You might be thinking, thats less than two tenths of a point who cares. But Portland averages 107 possessions per game. So the difference between a normal Portland possession and a Carmelo possession tonight works out to about 20 points per game. That's huge. That means that every time Carmelo used a possession the team was falling farther behind.


18-7-4 doesn't mean anything without context.
 
ZDwyr said:
I'd have Harden ahead of Davis but I wouldn't be too outraged if people flip them.
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Same really. Tbh I shouldn't have even mentioned Davis, just my surprise at Harden being in the lower tier.


Eboue said:
im gonna try and not be condescending right now. here we go.

scoring points is good. but you cant just look at total points in a vacuum. every shot taken is a possession spent that could have been used in a different way. every turnover is also a possession spent. there's an opportunity cost. so a simple way to look at it is to add up possessions used and add up points.

anthony had 15 field goal attempts, thats 15 possessions. he had 4 free throw attempts. thats 2 possessions. he had 3 turnovers. thats 3 possessions.

15+2+3 = 20. so thats 20 possessions used by carmelo anthony and he totaled 18 points. 18/20 is 0.90 points per possession. so now lets get some context. is that good or bad?

Dallas currently averages 1.15 points per possession, thats first in the league.
Portland averages 1.08, thats 13th.
Memphis and Chicago both average 1.03, tied for last place.

So Carmelo's efficiency tonight was significantly behind the worst offenses in the league. You might be thinking, thats less than two tenths of a point who cares. But Portland averages 107 possessions per game. So the difference between a normal Portland possession and a Carmelo possession tonight works out to about 20 points per game. That's huge. That means that every time Carmelo used a possession the team was falling farther behind.


18-7-4 doesn't mean anything without context.
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This cannot be stressed out enough I think.
 
Eboue said:
im gonna try and not be condescending right now. here we go.

scoring points is good. but you cant just look at total points in a vacuum. every shot taken is a possession spent that could have been used in a different way. every turnover is also a possession spent. there's an opportunity cost. so a simple way to look at it is to add up possessions used and add up points.

anthony had 15 field goal attempts, thats 15 possessions. he had 4 free throw attempts. thats 2 possessions. he had 3 turnovers. thats 3 possessions.

15+2+3 = 20. so thats 20 possessions used by carmelo anthony and he totaled 18 points. 18/20 is 0.90 points per possession. so now lets get some context. is that good or bad?

Dallas currently averages 1.15 points per possession, thats first in the league.
Portland averages 1.08, thats 13th.
Memphis and Chicago both average 1.03, tied for last place.

So Carmelo's efficiency tonight was significantly behind the worst offenses in the league. You might be thinking, thats less than two tenths of a point who cares. But Portland averages 107 possessions per game. So the difference between a normal Portland possession and a Carmelo possession tonight works out to about 20 points per game. That's huge. That means that every time Carmelo used a possession the team was falling farther behind.


18-7-4 doesn't mean anything without context.
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You guys are judging him so hard and missing the point entirely. Go all the way back to when we first talked about Melo. The point by majority here was "Melo is done" "Melo does not belong in the league" and most recently "a Horse and a 25 year old random G league player is better then him". MY point was he does belong in the league and he could still play as a bench option....thats it thats literally all I was saying.

Does Melo and can Melo still play in the league and be a option off the bench? Yes yes he can.

Thats all there is too it and thats all I was arguing.

Now if you guys dont like Melo as a player or whatever thats a whole other story.

2 games back and he is showing he can still play in this league as a bench player. Thats all I am and ever was saying.

People saying he is done and should not play in the NBA and 400 and whatever players are better then him is all just wrong.

He had another decent game today. Blazers though are god awful and maybe when Whiteside and Dame come back they will be a decent team but they play A LOT of hero Ball and don't move it around enough.
 
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