NBA 2016-17

[Sarni]

Kyrie is the best pure scorer compared to those two but overall obviously they are both easily better.

Thing is though, Kyrie is absolutely perfect where he is, Cavs don't need another all round powerhouse with LeBron in there, what they need is someone to take the scoring burden off LeBron and allow him to basically play in the Magic Johnson mould with someone who can blitz the scoreboard when it's needed and that's what Kyrie is great at. He's a better fit with LeBron than Butler or PG in my opinion, while obviously either of those two would also be fantastic there.

That's true. Kyrie as the main man would IMO fail to elevate his team to a higher level but he's great as a 2nd man on a contender. He's actually a point guard who is fine stepping aside when LeBron needs to handle the ball and fill playmaker role, not many in the NBA who would do this well under circumstances. Imagine Westbrook playing next to LeBron

 

[elmo]

I think with IT, He has had a great patch of form but I cannot see him putting the same numbers up next season. Might be worth the Celtics looking at trading him in Summer while his stock is at an all time high. The Celtics getting Fultz will make them a much better team next season.

IT is overrated. If your best player is IT, your team isn't going to win many playoff matches. He'll best serve NBA teams if he's willing to be the 6th man and provide instant offense when the starters are being rested, but his ego won't allow it.

Celtics roster needs an overhaul and it won't be easy.

 

[Sarni]

IT is overrated. If your best player is IT, your team isn't going to win many playoff matches. He'll best serve NBA teams if he's willing to be the 6th man and provide instant offense when the starters are being rested, but his ego won't allow it.

Celtics roster needs an overhaul and it won't be easy.

I was just making the same point on another forum. From here they can either try to trade their Nets pick for someone like Paul George but then be in deep shit next Summer when both George and Thomas need an extension and it becomes apparent they are still not championship material (even if they get Griffin to go with it, you still need to beat Cavaliers and Warriors who are just too good). Or they can try to trade IT for someone younger or even a pick in the draft plus something, I think if Philadelphia get the Lakers pick this year they will be willing to trade one of them and since they seem to be leaning towards win-slightly-earlier-than-in-10-years mode, Thomas would be perfect for them now (plus they would actually not mind paying him $30M next year as they have nobody to give that money to anyway). Phila would then get to pick 4th (Lakers pick) and still have shitloads of guards available to them, and Boston would get two top 3 picks and be able to draft one of Fultz/Ball (Fultz is preferable) and Josh Jackson. Then they still have Nets pick next year and I'll be surprised if Nets are not the worst team in the league by a margin again, so probably again you are looking at a top 4 pick which could get you Ayton or Doncic. Of course short term this will not make Celtics better, it will make them worse and probably not even a playoffs team next year if they are blooding Fultz, Jackson and Brown in the same season, but long term they will get to their peak level at the time when there will no longer be Warriors and Cavaliers to compete with.

Also, another idea is maybe trading for Porzingis who looks like he could be available. You are obviously not drafting both Fultz and Jackson then, because you either give up Thomas for him and don't have the Phila pick, or you give up your pick and don't get to use it, but Porzingis is more ready now than Fultz or Jackson will be.

They are really not in such a bad position to build their future. I think what needs to be considered by them is that perhaps building for the future, using picks and not trading them, might be a better way to get another championship than trying to compete now, because even if you add Paul George and Blake Griffin to this team, it could still not be enough and in a year you might find yourself paying through the roof for the players that get you nowhere, and having no youth to build on.

 

[elmo]

Yeah top 5 is a stretch but he's way more versatile than half the players you'd normally name above him. Like LeBron, he can do pretty much everything out there. His shot has been getting better lately, if he can fix that to a level where it's functional and can hit 35%+ from the 3-point range, he'll possibly be the best player in the league not named LeBron.

Harden, Curry, Westbrook or Durant may be better players but I'd not have any of them ahead of Giannis as a building block. The guy was top 20 in rebounds, steals, blocks, assists and points per game in the regular season. He was 5th in blocks, 9th in steals, 15th in rebounds, 18th in assists and 14th in points and it's not like any of these statistics is inflated by anything. He's basically elite at EVERYTHING. Is there another player not named LeBron who even comes close to this level of domination in all areas?

Top 5 is debatable even for this season but I don't think top 10 is much of a stretch - Curry, Westbrook, Davis, LeBron, Harden, Durant, Leonard, you could maybe make a case for all of them being better (LeBron is for sure) but aside from these 7 players who is better than Giannis?

And he's 22!

His stats are inflated though. Middleton and Parker's injury means he has way more offensive productivity than he actually needs to do and the Bucks don't have a decent starter at point guard and centre.

But yeah, potential wise, Giannis is definitely top 5.

 

[Moby]

I was just making the same point on another forum

Which one, if you don't mind asking.

 

[elmo]

I was just making the same point on another forum. From here they can either try to trade their Nets pick for someone like Paul George but then be in deep shit next Summer when both George and Thomas need an extension and it becomes apparent they are still not championship material (even if they get Griffin to go with it, you still need to beat Cavaliers and Warriors who are just too good). Or they can try to trade IT for someone younger or even a pick in the draft plus something, I think if Philadelphia get the Lakers pick this year they will be willing to trade one of them and since they seem to be leaning towards win-slightly-earlier-than-in-10-years mode, Thomas would be perfect for them now (plus they would actually not mind paying him $30M next year as they have nobody to give that money to anyway). Phila would then get to pick 4th (Lakers pick) and still have shitloads of guards available to them, and Boston would get two top 3 picks and be able to draft one of Fultz/Ball (Fultz is preferable) and Josh Jackson. Then they still have Nets pick next year and I'll be surprised if Nets are not the worst team in the league by a margin again, so probably again you are looking at a top 4 pick which could get you Ayton or Doncic. Of course short term this will not make Celtics better, it will make them worse and probably not even a playoffs team next year if they are blooding Fultz, Jackson and Brown in the same season, but long term they will get to their peak level at the time when there will no longer be Warriors and Cavaliers to compete with.

Also, another idea is maybe trading for Porzingis who looks like he could be available. You are obviously not drafting both Fultz and Jackson then, because you either give up Thomas for him and don't have the Phila pick, or you give up your pick and don't get to use it, but Porzingis is more ready now than Fultz or Jackson will be.

They are really not in such a bad position to build their future. I think what needs to be considered by them is that perhaps building for the future, using picks and not trading them, might be a better way to get another championship than trying to compete now, because even if you add Paul George and Blake Griffin to this team, it could still not be enough and in a year you might find yourself paying through the roof for the players that get you nowhere, and having no youth to build on.

Apart from Bradley, the rest of their players should all be up for trade and it won't be hard to find improvements over them. Whether Ainge can pull the trades off is another matter, he values his assets too much and can't make a proper valuation for trades.

I don't think the Nets would be that bad next season, Sean Marks knows his stuff and they'll be better if Lin and Lopez stays healthy. Add in a few astute free agent signings and anything can happen, especially in the Eastern conference where the difference between a top 4 seeding and the lottery is just a few games (typically).

 

[Sarni]

Which one, if you don't mind asking.

RipCityTwo at SportsTwo. It's a Portland forum but the fans seem very knowledgeable and fun and respectful for everyone. I have also registered on RealGM but only got a few posts on Bucks and Sixers forums so far. On RealGM you get some teams who have nice forums with lots of members, and some that appear completely devoid of any supporters.

 

[charlton66]

So is Green. He'd be banging triple doubles every other week if he needed to.

Since 1984 when NCAA officially began keeping track of assists, Draymond has more tournament triple doubles than any other college player.

 

[Sarni]

Apart from Bradley, the rest of their players should all be up for trade and it won't be hard to find improvements over them. Whether Ainge can pull the trades off is another matter, he values his assets too much and can't make a proper valuation for trades.

I don't think the Nets would be that bad next season, Sean Marks knows his stuff and they'll be better if Lin and Lopez stays healthy. Add in a few astute free agent signings and anything can happen, especially in the Eastern conference where the difference between a top 4 seeding and the lottery is just a few games (typically).

Nah, Nets will still not be an attractive free agent destination. Unless they can lure some of the good second tier players, they will still be terrible IMO. Of course they might strike gold and get Millsap for instance if they are the only team willing to pay the max, but they won't have that many opportunities in the market. Fully expecting them to offer a max to Caldwell-Pope as as they did offer $18M to Crabbe last year, and I'm not sure Detroit will be matching that offer as they are also not in position where they want to commit $50M to Drummond and KCP. So overall while I find it possible that Nets will get some free agents that will help them move out of the bottom, I think it's very likely that they will still be a terrible team next season.

As for Boston, I don't think other than Thomas and Crowder their players have huge value. They won't be trading Horford as that would send a terrible message to free agents. Thomas is good and valuable but he's also expiring and plays in a position that is probably the most stacked position in the current NBA, a lot of teams just do not need a point guard, and with him likely to command $30M next year, not a lot of teams will have the cap space to accommodate that. Crowder is only valuable because of his contract, overall he's a good but not great player. Other players they have are IMO not that valuable.

 

[charlton66]

Looks like Durant is now considered "doubtful" for game 2 tonight.

 

[ArseHat]

Wow, the Celtics rebounding is sooo bad. And now, with the Flash, Buckets and Rondo hitting their strides, their D don't seem that good anymore either. Outplayed and outworked.

Are the Celtics the first 1st seed to lose the two first games against an 8th seed?

Boston also don't have anyone other than IT who can consistently create their own shot and score which spells trouble in the playoffs. Not enough scorers/shooters and too much burden on IT to carry the team offensively while being a major liability on defense. Also, I think they placed too much emphasis on obtaining the one seed since legit championship contenders typically don't care too much about their seeding (not that anyone was saying they were legit contenders).

1993 Suns went down 0-2 to the Lakers and ended up going to the finals. However, that was when the first round was a best of 5.

 

[Art]

Russ single handedly carrying this team. He deserves better man.

 

[ZDwyr]

Russ single handedly carrying this team. He deserves better man.

Strange one. He was both the reason we were competitive and the reason we lost. He was just gassed in that last quarter but he knows he plays with absolute garbage so he can't really do anything else than shoot. Donovan made some weird line-up choices though. No idea why Gibson didn't play more and why Singler was playing at all.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a talent difference between his and Harden's supporting cast just has to watch this game and see what happens when they are both off the floor.

Also, at times Harden is a chore to watch. He's incredibly gifted but the fouls are just ridiculous.

 

[Stanzin Lama]

Strange one. He was both the reason we were competitive and the reason we lost. He was just gassed in that last quarter but he knows he plays with absolute garbage so he can't really do anything else than shoot. Donovan made some weird line-up choices though. No idea why Gibson didn't play more and why Singler was playing at all.

Anyone who thinks there isn't a talent difference between his and Harden's supporting cast just has to watch this game and see what happens when they are both off the floor.

Also, at times Harden is a chore to watch. He's incredibly gifted but the fouls are just ridiculous.

For some reason, I find Thunders and Westbrook a chore to watch. Westbrook has the ball, and he either drives it and passes it to Adams, or shoots himself, or else, takes a jumpshot.

 

[Skills]

Harden gets an insane amount of free throws. 20 in this game. He's going to smash Karl Malone's record.

 

[Zen]

Chasing stat lines(The playoff 50 trip dub) so badly he's losing games himself....after practically winning the f'in game. He's one of a kind that's for sure.

 

[Moby]

Harden gets an insane amount of free throws. 20 in this game. He's going to smash Karl Malone's record.

A lot of them being a joke, to add.

 

[ZDwyr]

Chasing stat lines(The playoff 50 trip dub) so badly he's losing games himself....after practically winning the f'in game. He's one of a kind that's for sure.

you honestly think he was chasing a 50 point triple double?

 

[el3mel]

Except the bulls-celtics series , every other series are going in the predicted direction.

The bulls-celtics and raptors-bucks will the most interesting to watch. Raptors-bucks can go either way and may even extend to game 7.

 

[Sarni]

Feck me this was pointless. If we never intended to play our strongest lineup and were dead set on letting Nurkic, the only player who is better than his Warriors matchup, rest because the future, then we should have just not bothered and let Denver have a playoffs experience. Absolutely livid with that. No effort from the team whatsoever.

 

[ArseHat]

Harden and Westbrook both averaged nearly 11 FTA in the reg season; they're gonna get their calls. Harden is theatrical, but he's savvy. He's always known how to draw fouls. If the refs are gonna give you the call, why not? Westbrook also had 18 FT for OKC, and Kawhi 19 the other day.

But yeah, the pump fake jump-into-the-defender drawing a foul technique (which shouldn't be called if the defender goes straight up) used by a lot of players annoys me in particular, as well as the flail your arms and legs out on a shot, especially when coming off a screen and the defender is trailing behind. But it's like football I suppose, you have to embellish or you won't get the call.


Westbrook's gonna kick himself for the 4th quarter. Awful play all around from him after playing godlike the first 3 quarters. Just blew this game in the 4th, too much iso, no ball movement. 4/18 is just unacceptable.

 

[Zen]

you honestly think he was chasing a 50 point triple double?

I don't think, I saw it. Check his stats before it was conceivable(superb performance all round to be fair up until the eyes lit up at the thought of a 50-10-10 with a win in the playoffs).....and after (4/18, what 1 assist? and the loss due to it*).

*Okay a bit harsh, maybe they wouldn't have won if he decided to share the ball more anyway, maybe his mates don't have the bottle for the fourth quarter close out, whatever, but at least they wouldn't be as many silly shots.

 

[Revan]

Russ shot 43 times, lol. Again having just 40% of accuracy. How on Earth people blame his teammates for not doing better? They are playing with the biggest ballomaniac in the modern NBA. He makes Kobe and Iverson look like great teammates.

 

[giorno]

Celtics roster needs an overhaul and it won't be easy.

Why not? They're probably getting Fultz in the draft, for starters. They have a lot of assets, and this is clearly a team that's thinking about the future rather than the present. I mean, right now there's no realistic trade Ainge can pull of that can make the Cs competitive against the dubs

Their strategy right now seems simple enough to me: stockpile assets, build for the future and wait for the dubs to flame out. The only reason they're a playoff team instead of bottoming out right now is thanks to Billy King

On the games: dubs rest KD, Livingstone and Barnes and still blow out the Blazers. As i said, that's going to be a sweep. Dubs won't want to force Chance the Rapper to reschedule

Meanwhile, Rockets vs Thunder should be putting the MVP debate to bed. Take a look at the +/- of Russ, and then everyone else on the thunder's roster for game 2.

Anybody claiming Harden doesn't have a much better supporting cast and coach or that Russ doesn't have to be a superhero for the thunder to have chance is talking bollocks

 

[giorno]

Russ shot 43 times, lol. Again having just 40% of accuracy. How on Earth people blame his teammates for not doing better? They are playing with the biggest ballomaniac in the modern NBA. He makes Kobe and Iverson look like great teammates.

Counterpoint: russ finished the game with a +/- of +11. The moment he sat on the bench, the thunder imploded

The idea that the rest of the thunder suck because Russ hogs the ball is fecking funny. Of course, we all know Roberson, Oladipo, Adams, etc are such GREAT offensive players, afterall

 

[ArseHat]

Counterpoint: russ finished the game with a +/- of +11. The moment he sat on the bench, the thunder imploded

The idea that the rest of the thunder suck because Russ hogs the ball is fecking funny. Of course, we all know Roberson, Oladipo, Adams, etc are such GREAT offensive players, afterall

Gibson and Adams finished with +17 & 18 respectively. They were leading at the end of the third and Russ played the entire 4th. He carried them up to that point, but he cost them the game in the final quarter. 4/18?! No defending that no matter how little you think of your teammates.

 

[Revan]

Counterpoint: russ finished the game with a +/- of +11. The moment he sat on the bench, the thunder imploded

The idea that the rest of the thunder suck because Russ hogs the ball is fecking funny. Of course, we all know Roberson, Oladipo, Adams, etc are such GREAT offensive players, afterall

Not great players, but they are totally competent players. When you have a player who takes more shots than the rest of the team, with a lower accuracy than the rest of the team then you have a problem. Everyone would play worse than they are when your point guard has a monopoly of the ball. A player would likely see the ball more playing 10 minutes per match with Curry and co. rather than 35 minutes with Westbrook.

And your point about him sitting in the bench and Thunder imploding isn't true. They were leading in the fourth quarter and he played it entirely. If he hadn't played, they likely would have won. 4/18 is totally unjustifiable, but of course, he had to go for 50-10-10. Who cares for victories when you have triple doubles after all?!

 

[ZDwyr]

Russ was gassed. He ignored McDermott twice in the 4th and he shouldn't have (because Doug was actually shooting well). But I don't blame him otherwise. Who else was he going to pass the ball to? Oladipo? He was atrocious. Roberson? lol. Singler? lol. Kanter can't play, Adams is limited offensively, Gibson wasn't on the floor enough. Christon is a d-league PG. For the Thunder it was either lose from his teammates being awful, or lose from Russ being awful. The only difference is Russ has a chance of being amazing and winning. A few of his shots were desperation attempts in the last minute too - which made it look even worse

 

[ZDwyr]

Not great players, but they are totally competent players. When you have a player who takes more shots than the rest of the team, with a lower accuracy than the rest of the team then you have a problem. Everyone would play worse than they are when your point guard has a monopoly of the ball. A player would likely see the ball more playing 10 minutes per match with Curry and co. rather than 35 minutes with Westbrook.

And your point about him sitting in the bench and Thunder imploding isn't true. They were leading in the fourth quarter and he played it entirely. If he hadn't played, they likely would have won. 4/18 is totally unjustifiable, but of course, he had to go for 50-10-10. Who cares for victories when you have triple doubles after all?!

Yes it is. They had a 12 point lead when Russ sat in the third and it was cut by 7 or 8 within a MINUTE. Are you seriously saying if Westbrook didn't play in the last quarter they would have won? Christon was a -15 in 6 freakin' minutes. Houston bench can cut a lead when Harden sits, Oklahoma give up leads when Westbrook does.

 

[Moby]

And your point about him sitting in the bench and Thunder imploding isn't true

So you didn't watch the game then.

 

[ArseHat]

Russ was gassed. He ignored McDermott twice in the 4th and he shouldn't have (because Doug was actually shooting well). But I don't blame him otherwise. Who else was he going to pass the ball to? Oladipo? He was atrocious. Roberson? lol. Singler? lol. Kanter can't play, Adams is limited offensively, Gibson wasn't on the floor enough. Christon is a d-league PG. For the Thunder it was either lose from his teammates being awful, or lose from Russ being awful. The only difference is Russ has a chance of being amazing and winning. A few of his shots were desperation attempts in the last minute too - which made it look even worse

He said he wasn't tired, whether he's telling the truth is a different matter. I'm criticizing him, not necessarily for going 4/18 (atrocious as it is), but rather not getting his teammates involved in the 4th. It was literally him dribbling till 10 secs or so remained on the shot clock and chucking a contested shot each possession. At least pass the ball, move to get open, and let the offense work even if you eventually end up taking the shot. He made it too easy for Houston to lock him down playing hero ball when he doesn't have the tough shot making ability of an MJ or Kobe.

 

[Moby]

but rather not getting his teammates involved in the 4th.

This isn't something that started in this game, it has been there all season and the coach has not bothered to change that. It's their best bet really, Russ has a PER of 52 or something in 4th quarter this season, I don't think Donovan is arsed to change that at this point and that's how it is. Either ways, they are not good enough and aren't going to win this series with this roster.

 

[ZDwyr]

He said he wasn't tired, whether he's telling the truth is a different matter. I'm criticizing him, not necessarily for going 4/18 (atrocious as it is), but rather not getting his teammates involved in the 4th. It was literally him dribbling till 10 secs or so remaining on the shot clock and chucking a contested shot each possession. At least pass the ball, move to get open, and let the offense work even if you eventually end up taking the shot. He made it too easy for Houston to lock him down playing hero ball when he doesn't have the tough shot making ability of an MJ or Kobe.

He was tired, no doubt about that. I agree he could have been better and he himself admitted that afterwards. He has to find his teammates. But at the same time, they were going to lose anyway because of how bad his teammates are.

 

[ArseHat]

This isn't something that started in this game, it has been there all season and the coach has not bothered to change that. It's their best bet really, Russ has a PER of 52 or something in 4th quarter this season, I don't think Donovan is arsed to change that at this point and that's how it is. Either ways, they are not good enough and aren't going to win this series with this roster.

He played perfectly fine for 3 quarters and it was working for the most part. No reason to completely change your mindset, and he'll be rightly criticized for the 4th even with his gaudy box score. Even Shaq, who's constantly defended Russ, said there was no excuse for his 4th quarter performance with or without his supposedly scrub teammates.

He was tired, no doubt about that. I agree he could have been better and he himself admitted that afterwards. He has to find his teammates. But at the same time, they were going to lose anyway because of how bad his teammates are.

We don't know if they were going to lose. They had the lead for the majority of the game, and it was a close till the final minutes. This loss will definitely sting for them. I reckon OKC takes game 3.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Good comeback by the Rockets, Harden showing up at the end, I don't get why the complaining about the FTs, many many players do this kind of stuff, and in the play offs you get more fouls because the defense is tighter that's known.

PS. WB got 18 FTs as well.

 

[syrian_scholes]

Also what does Harden have to do to be considered better? He win more games, he scores a lot more efficiently, he gets the most out of his teammates, when the rockets where down did he lose his cool and went 4-18? He kept looking for the hot hand.

In contrast, Westbrook hogged the ball and totally embarrassed himself again, McDermmot was shooting really well, did he even think to pass to him? Also Roberson was scoring under the basket effectively the whole game, what changed?

 

[elmo]

Why not? They're probably getting Fultz in the draft, for starters. They have a lot of assets, and this is clearly a team that's thinking about the future rather than the present. I mean, right now there's no realistic trade Ainge can pull of that can make the Cs competitive against the dubs

Their strategy right now seems simple enough to me: stockpile assets, build for the future and wait for the dubs to flame out. The only reason they're a playoff team instead of bottoming out right now is thanks to Billy King

On the games: dubs rest KD, Livingstone and Barnes and still blow out the Blazers. As i said, that's going to be a sweep. Dubs won't want to force Chance the Rapper to reschedule

Meanwhile, Rockets vs Thunder should be putting the MVP debate to bed. Take a look at the +/- of Russ, and then everyone else on the thunder's roster for game 2.

Anybody claiming Harden doesn't have a much better supporting cast and coach or that Russ doesn't have to be a superhero for the thunder to have chance is talking bollocks

What assets do they have apart from the Brooklyn picks? Their entire roster is filled with bargain bin players, which looks good when balancing the cap, but are terrible when you're actually building a roster to compete. The Lakers and Timberwolves will have a team challenging for a championship before the Celtics.

Danny Ainge will feck up the draft somehow, his picks have been underwhelming and he always goes for the safe option which is good when you're building for stability, but not good for building a championship roster.

 

[giorno]

What assets do they have apart from the Brooklyn picks? Their entire roster is filled with bargain bin players, which looks good when balancing the cap, but are terrible when you're actually building a roster to compete. The Lakers and Timberwolves will have a team challenging for a championship before the Celtics.

Danny Ainge will feck up the draft somehow, his picks have been underwhelming and he always goes for the safe option which is good when you're building for stability, but not good for building a championship roster.

You mean, "what assets do they have other than a bunch a highly-valuable picks, including the likely #1 overall this year which means Markelle Fultz"

Their entire roster is filled with role players on cheap contracts, they have cap space, and are in a position to build a contender in 3-5 years without the need to bottom out

The 'wolves are in a better position, sure(KAT+Wiggins), but the lakers? Come on...(and i say this as a lakers fan )

 

[syrian_scholes]

You mean, "what assets do they have other than a bunch a highly-valuable picks, including the likely #1 overall this year which means Markelle Fultz"

Their entire roster is filled with role players on cheap contracts, they have cap space, and are in a position to build a contender in 3-5 years without the need to bottom out

The 'wolves are in a better position, sure(KAT+Wiggins), but the lakers? Come on...(and i say this as a lakers fan )

@elmo seriously underrating draft picks, I wouldn't trade that pick for anyone tbh, and it will always get you a superstar if you trade it.

 

[freeurmind]

This first round has been great for my gambling balance. was worried with the strong start by the Thunder but it all came right in the end. Russ clearly shot the ball too much last night in the 4th but a bigger concern for me is the Thunder defence which just collapsed.